Evil as non-Being

[Aelred_Minor]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

It seems to me you are insisting on ignoring the distinction between physical evil and moral evil and then ask what the differece is between them. Obviously if you remove from consideration the essential difference between the two kinds of evil you will be left with what is the same: a creature created by God, all the positive aspects of which are goods, but which is allowed to become an evil so as to bring about an otherwise logically impossible greater good.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

The point was to show Thinking Sapien by way of anaolgy that the demons might not have in their nature anything but evil. As it is absurd to imagine the tree’s branch in your courthouse as a fallen “evil” branch; so do I propose that demons are misconstrued as having a will. I liken them to extremely accurate, uncannily destructive, and only malicious when seen so as by human projection. Yet a fellow Catholic has informed me that their is scriptural and traditional evidence showing a free-will. I doubt this evidence, refute its legitimacy (but not its authority), and choose to remain confused. I brought animals into the picture because they have lesser wills, but still somefreedom – as where if the demon has a free will at all, it is “wholly bent on evil.”

On the contrary, such a branch is indeed an evil branch.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

What??:whacky:

Just to clarify, God created an Angel that decided his pride was higher than serving Him making him a demon.
God did not create a demon.
The Angels and us all share one thing in common Free Will
And that is the huge difference, the demon does have a will but the tree stump has not.

:doh2: Genesis???

ROFL!!

Its not God that creates, its the Truth that makes things possible. God can only move along the lines of Truth therefore that which exists, exists because the Truth revealed it. The truth reveals everything, even ignorance and that ignorance permits the demon to exist. God didn’t actually create the demon. The Truth merely revealed demon hence its existence. God didn’t actually create the tree. The Truth merely revealed the tree. God cannot create, he can only reveal the Truth.

God does create, that’s why He is called our Creator.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

In regards to animals - they have no free will and being maimed by a bear is morally equivalent of being hit by a falling tree. Animals are morally neutral. Moral evil is always the product of choice, and while animals certainly do have a process by which they make decisions, it is not choice as such.

The sons of God and daughters of men were both human- descendants of Seth and Cain, it is generally thought. There was no mating between angels and humans. Angels have neither bodies nor genders, and each is his own species. They are totally not sexual in any way.

True, animals operate by instinct and have no spirit or spiritual life, they are not spiritual beings which is why they cannot sin and don’t need to repent and will not go to hell etc. They have a personality and a soul, but no living spirit like mankind does. Their will or decisions are within the confines of their instinct. Trees and inanimate objects like storms and lightening and gravity take lives all the time but since they are not living spiritual beings they are not and can never be evil beings.

As far as the fallen angels, I do believe they were angelic beings that mated with human women, they took on physical form. In their natural form and the way God created them they have no gender and are not supposed to have sex, and those angels who are living the way God made them have no gender, but just like how man can find a way to get around their natural form like with sex change operations etc to do what they want, how much more can angelic beings who are far smarter and older than man, get around their natural form to do what they want to do? That’s how giants ended up on the earth and part of the reason for the flood, to wipe out those abominations of nature. Look at how mankind is playing around now with cloning and cross species mating trying to make it happen, so why wouldn’t fallen angles who are smarlter and older than man be able to find a way to do what they want to do and leave their natural form and state that God created them in?
Even the good angels could take on the appearance of humans like the angels that visited Lot and the people didn’t know they were angels.

 

[Dolezal]

Did God create the demon evil? As we think of evil, with free will used improperly…The proposition was that evil is not always evil qua evil’s common definition.

As St. Thomas explains it and I understand it, evil is the privation of goodness. Evil is non-being but not all non-being is evil. The subject of evil is good, but not all non-being requires a subject. Evil is the absence of good, but not every absence of good is evil, or else nothing is evil and everything that doesn’t have the good of something else is evil.

The demons were created good because God is the supreme good. Good is the cause of evil because the misuse of free will is caused by the rational or intellectual creature, which is good. The demons are good insofar as they are beings, but we call them evil because of their evil will. The angels are intellectual creatures, unlike humans, rational creatures, there is no movement from subject to subject in the intellect, they know things immediately and all the factors involving a choice. This is why we can repent and demons can’t.

 

[JerryZ]

Gen 6:2 cites some mating activity between human beings and other Heavenly beings. I would say that if they can mate, they all must have been human. Allowing a different interpretation invites heresy.

Uhm yeah I stand corrected, actually:

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!
14:13 And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north;
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the uttermost parts of the pit.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.
28:16 By the abundance of thy traffic they filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore have I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 By the multitude of thine iniquities, in the unrighteousness of thy traffic, thou hast profaned thy sanctuaries; therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee; it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee

 

[Michael19682]

Thank for the many responses. You all have helped to erode my stubborness on this issue – to the point, in fact, that I’m not totally sure why I set out on it in the first place. Thanks again to those for whom I am speechless. And to those to whom I will respond now for further clarification discussion.
:blush:

 

[Michael19682]

As St. Thomas explains it and I understand it, evil is the privation of goodness. Evil is non-being but not all non-being is evil. The subject of evil is good, but not all non-being requires a subject. Evil is the absence of good, but not every absence of good is evil, or else nothing is evil and everything that doesn’t have the good of something else is evil.

The demons were created good because God is the supreme good. Good is the cause of evil because the misuse of free will is caused by the rational or intellectual creature, which is good. The demons are good insofar as they are beings, but we call them evil because of their evil will. The angels are intellectual creatures, unlike humans, rational creatures, there is no movement from subject to subject in the intellect, they know things immediately and all the factors involving a choice. This is why we can repent and demons can’t.

Sounds almost like these demons, if they should bring about human repentance or exercise the Lord’s mastery over the sinful (kind of like a meaner person than these bullies are makes them turn to God for help); the demons also in their own way contribute to sacrifice. Of course it is the saint and martyr who makes the sacrifice proper by submitting without retaliation. Whereas, as nearly everyone pointed out, the demons can’t know of their creation of a good outcome. Yet it is said, no cross, no resurrection, no salvation.

A new, related question arises. If evil can’t be saved, such as the demons can’t, and if person is controlled by one completely, what of simply destroying the evil, like burning the fallen branch. But then the death penalty takes on legitimacy, which is impossible.

 

[JDaniel]

A tree falls and crushes a person to death – a good person. A demon induces through a human soul the killing of a person – a good, innocent person? If we conceptualize an evil demon as simply an unliving entity, like a dead tree or a fallen boulder, and strip that thingly demon of his being and will, and grant him only animation in space and thru time: what is the difference materially between that monstrous thing and a dead tree branch? If no materially significant difference, then how can we say that God created the tree branch but not the demon?

Michael:

We admit that God causes both. The difference is, there’s no intentionality in a falling tree branch, but, there is in human beings. What a demon does is in the aftermath of his fall from near perfection, by an entirely self-serving choice. Upon being cast down, and fully aware of his eternality, he encourages the angels, who went with him, to wage a fruitless war.

God bless,
jd

 

[Dolezal]

A new, related question arises. If evil can’t be saved, such as the demons can’t, and if person is controlled by one completely, what of simply destroying the evil, like burning the fallen branch. But then the death penalty takes on legitimacy, which is impossible.

Sorry, I don’t know what you mean by destroying evil or what you’re getting at exactly. Evil is not a thing, it’s the privation of something resulting from a choice.

 

[R_C]

Sounds almost like these demons, if they should bring about human repentance or exercise the Lord’s mastery over the sinful …] also in their own way contribute to sacrifice.

That is God thwarting their evil schemes, though, and exercising His will over them even against their best efforts. God has the power to take evil and turn it into good. Just look at the passion and crucifixion of the Lord. The intentions of the demons are absolutely far from bringing about human repentance, but it is written:

Those who lead good people along an evil path will fall into their own trap

He has dug a hole, and has fallen into the pit which he made.

If evil can’t be saved, such as the demons can’t, and if person is controlled by one completely, what of simply destroying the evil, like burning the fallen branch. But then the death penalty takes on legitimacy, which is impossible.

To begin with, let’s clarify that the Church does not rule out death penalty as intrinsically illegitimate. It’s a very complex topic. The Catechism states:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

And this Declaration of the Holy See further explains why “The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty”.

That being said: hardly is a person ever “controlled by a demon completely”. Every person retains always their God-given free will while on this earth (unlike demons, we have unlimited “second chances”: “not seven times, but seventy times seven, or as many times…”) and my very scant (and hopefully reliable, since they were written by priests) readings on the influence of demons shows that even in some bad cases of possession ultimately the success of the exorcism depended on the person being asked to make a definite choice between Christ and Satan. And those are extreme and rare examples.

So in regular life all sinners can definitely be saved (after all, Christ came specifically to call sinners to repentance), though some are so stubbornly unrepentant that only through a special grace they may reach repentance, and never against their will. And we do have human laws to try and keep the evildoers from doing evil, though they are only patches, not cures for the illness.

 

[Michael19682]

Sorry, I don’t know what you mean by destroying evil or what you’re getting at exactly. Evil is not a thing, it’s the privation of something resulting from a choice.

I mean destroying it as in capital punishment. I think demons are a thing, and not only a privation of good. They meet the qualifications of a thing – Augustine would not call them a sign or a figure only, I don;t think (but then again he might have). As things, they are totally evil since they have no propensity or ability to choose good. Thus, if we destroy a demon’s body and his spirit goes to hell – poof, he’s gone. That is why I get so tripped up on so-called evil people. Demonic possession aside, that mating business in genesis 6:2 is disturbing, because it implies there remain evil descendants of those procreative acts. The guy sitting next to me on the subway could, quite literally, be one of them. That’s disturbing…and why I like to conceptualize evil as a thing with no life, nonBeing. Only so I don’t as one of the commentators warned “stare at it” too closely. I can accept more easily a crowbar blasted from a street explosion giving me an unintentional lobatomy (sp?) than I can some errant imbecile bashing into me on the streetside while I’m strolling my newborn son.

 

[R_C]

that mating business in genesis 6:2 is disturbing, because it implies there remain evil descendants of those procreative acts. The guy sitting next to me on the subway could, quite literally, be one of them.

I think you forgot something here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/images/CEN213(49).jpg

The guy sitting next to you in the subway is a descendant of Noah the just

 

[Michael19682]

I think you forgot something here:

The guy sitting next to you in the subway is a descendant of Noah the just

YES!

 

[JDaniel]

I mean destroying it as in capital punishment. I think demons are a thing, and not only a privation of good.

Michael:

I think you may be conflating two different exigencies. On the one hand, there is Evil, which is the privation of Good. Ontologically, this is not a thing; it is an absence. It is sometimes called “a thing,” but it is no more a thing than is a hole on the earth’s surface. On the other hand, there are exigencies, demons, that are spirits. Remember, they were made “good” by God, and are called “evil” only by base-less attribution. They cannot simply displace the “good” God created, nor does the good turn into evil. They are seen to be absent good, by sentient creatures, and are called “evil,” by us.

They meet the qualifications of a thing – Augustine would not call them a sign or a figure only, I don;t think (but then again he might have). As things, they are totally evil since they have no propensity or ability to choose good.

But, how can that which God makes be evil? Wouldn’t that express imperfection in God?

Thus, if we destroy a demon’s body and his spirit goes to hell – poof, he’s gone.

At our earthly level, we are very proximate to hell. A “good” body can be usurped by a demon. This body does not truly belong to it. It is possible for it to be driven out of that body. But, if by habit a human being embraces continuous evil intentions that result in harmful acts, destruction of the entire being might be the only resolution.

That is why I get so tripped up on so-called evil people.

People take on evil aspects usually by succumbing to bad habits. E.g., excluding Godliness from one’s life may become habitual. This, then, can open small doors for a demon to slip in and impart his will.

Demonic possession aside, that mating business in genesis 6:2 is disturbing, because it implies there remain evil descendants of those procreative acts.

Again, this would imply imperfection in God, don’t you think?

The guy sitting next to me on the subway could, quite literally, be one of them. That’s disturbing…and why I like to conceptualize evil as a thing with no life, nonBeing.

And, your conceptualization would be correct. But, an evil being, or person, is not a “thing with no life.” It’s spirit has been displaced by a stronger spirit, that has embraced Evil, as a way of life.

Only so I don’t as one of the commentators warned “stare at it” too closely. I can accept more easily a crowbar blasted from a street explosion giving me an unintentional lobotomy (sp?) than I can some errant imbecile bashing into me on the street-side while I’m strolling my newborn son.

Physical stuff occurs. There’s no evil intent to physical occurrences. None. In fact, there’s no intentionality in physical events. There is intentionality in human acts. The physical proceeds by an algorithm, and there are billions of such algorithms proceeding. In a finite cosmos, algorithm paths will intersect. We have no legitimate right to attribute “evil” to such chance events and so to God, even though He energizes the algorithms.

God bless,
jd

 

[Michael19682]

Michael:

I think you may be conflating two different exigencies. On the one hand, there is Evil, which is the privation of Good. Ontologically, this is not a thing; it is an absence…]They are seen to be absent good, by sentient creatures, and are called “evil,” by us.

…]

Physical stuff occurs. There’s no evil intent to physical occurrences. None. In fact, there’s no intentionality in physical events. There is intentionality in human acts. The physical proceeds by an algorithm, and there are billions of such algorithms proceeding. In a finite cosmos, algorithm paths will intersect. We have no legitimate right to attribute “evil” to such chance events and so to God, even though He energizes the algorithms.

God bless,
jd

Let me begin by saying that this is to me a discussion. You seem to be on the same wave length as me in certain regards.

“Judge not and you shall not be judged.” In a way, this sums up everything. I mean, what we are really doign here in life on the level of that quote is opening ourselves to a view of the world that is more embracing and accepting of faults in others. Really, good versus evil is for God to make judgment of. When Jesus rebuked people, including at one point one of his disciples, he always says “get behind me”. I see that as a protective gesture in addition to a rebuke. It’s “get out of my way. Don’t impede my progress or work,” but also, “Stand where I can protect you.” Of course this is while he was on earth with us and there hadn’t been the fuller revelation of his cross and resurrection yet. But there yet remains the ultimate proof, His second coming. I would say provisionally that if this doesn’t satisfy the evil who disbelieve that Jesus is the one true son, that then and only then can they go to Hell.

In the meantime there is the problem of who goes to Hell. And we shouldn’t forsake any individual or entity who has not been proven Hell bound. So, how do we define evil, and what is the most healthy way to conceptualize it for purposes of saving that being from Hell? Really, our happiness is secondary, since as knowers of the truth we are bound to an oath of self sacrifice in most cases united with the efforts of the church, whom should pray for the whole world.

 

[JDaniel]

Let me begin by saying that this is to me a discussion. You seem to be on the same wave length as me in certain regards.

“Judge not and you shall not be judged.” In a way, this sums up everything. I mean, what we are really doign here in life on the level of that quote is opening ourselves to a view of the world that is more embracing and accepting of faults in others. Really, good versus evil is for God to make judgment of. When Jesus rebuked people, including at one point one of his disciples, he always says “get behind me”. I see that as a protective gesture in addition to a rebuke. It’s “get out of my way. Don’t impede my progress or work,” but also, “Stand where I can protect you.” Of course this is while he was on earth with us and there hadn’t been the fuller revelation of his cross and resurrection yet. But there yet remains the ultimate proof, His second coming. I would say provisionally that if this doesn’t satisfy the evil who disbelieve that Jesus is the one true son, that then and only then can they go to Hell.

In the meantime there is the problem of who goes to Hell. And we shouldn’t forsake any individual or entity who has not been proven Hell bound. So, how do we define evil, and what is the most healthy way to conceptualize it for purposes of saving that being from Hell? Really, our happiness is secondary, since as knowers of the truth we are bound to an oath of self sacrifice in most cases united with the efforts of the church, whom should pray for the whole world.

Michael:

All that God creates, he creates Good. But, he can impart some of what he is, but not all of what he is. In order for us to be relatively real, he creates us in the physical order. Besides, he no doubt has reasons only known to him. In the physical order, even we are aware that there are gaps, e.g., entropy. In the physical order, the soul is part and parcel a physical thing. He did not - and I think it would be a violation of logic - create human souls to be perfect, at least not as he is. It is in those gaps, where there is not God, where evil resides.

God bless
jd

 

[Michael19682]

Michael:

All that God creates, he creates Good. But, he can impart some of what he is, but not all of what he is. In order for us to be relatively real, he creates us in the physical order. Besides, he no doubt has reasons only known to him. In the physical order, even we are aware that there are gaps, e.g., entropy. In the physical order, the soul is part and parcel a physical thing. He did not - and I think it would be a violation of logic - create human souls to be perfect, at least not as he is. It is in those gaps, where there is not God, where evil resides.

God bless
jd

HI jd. God bless you in return. I respectfully submit to your diligent person and postings that it is only faith that separates our being from being “all of what he is”. However, unless we hold a ‘radicalized’ view of God, there is essentially always some part of the universe that is creation and not creator: therefore, our doubt is as this creation in Romans 8 (that anxiously awaits the revelation of the children of God), and need not be taken as a subtraction from our full assumption into his full body at holy communion, in which we become him. It is the part of me that suffers from lack of faith and from doubt that holds to the belief that I can never be fully who he is. For even our deeds can be like his:
Luke 16:5-6
5And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.” 6The Lord replied, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you would say to [this] mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

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If our deeds and love, what else remains?