Evil vs. Absence of Good

[Iron_Donkey]

Interesting point…not one of these saints(obviously excluding Socrates) cites a specific situation where allowing evil to win the day leads to a greater good. Why do you think that is?Can you tell me, or anyone else, why they cite no specifics?

Actually, there are several. The entire story of salvation history, for one: the sin of Adam, the betrayal by Judas, the Crucifixion of God Himself are all undeniably bad. The result? The salvation of the human race, but not just a returning to where we were before. God has become Man that man might become sons of God (CCC 460), a far greater state than the garden state destroyed by Adam and Eve.

Much good has been brought out of much evil. This of course doesn’t make the evil less evil. But that’s the whole free will thing for you (more on which in a bit).

Can anyone offer a greater good to allowing a seven-year-old girl to be consumed by leukemia?

Job asked more or less the same thing. The answer? More or less that we can’t always find an obvious answer but that, as I am sure you are aware, the inability to find an obvious answer does not mean that there isn’t one.

I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase that a butterfly may flap it’s wings in Africa and cause a tornado in Texas. That may be exaggeration, but such complicated systems (technical name - chaotic) do exist, and if we can’t even follow the effects of small actions across the space of a day or two for the much simpler physical systems that are governed by rules that we more or less understand, why should we expect to be able to follow all the effects of every good or bad thing that is allowed to happen back and forth across the entire span of creation?

If this version of God wishes to be loved, then there are other ways that I can think of with my puny human mind.

This is all well and good to say, but you are not capable of seeing what would happen should any of these ways you think you found actually be tried. Further, if by “God wishes to be loved” you mean “God wishes people to have warm and fuzzy feelings about and generally feel well disposed towards Himself” this is such a tiny slice of what’s going on as to be hard to respond to without a thousand qualifiers. I mean, yes, it appears that God wants us to be happy, and to be happy about Him, but He also wants us to be good, and to be so by our own volition. If that happens fully, then we’ll generally like God. But God’s not just trying to win a popularity contest here.

So yeah, God has the power to snap His fingers and put everyone in a happy place. But instead He wishes to treat us like actual people, to allow us to make real choices without simply overriding the bad consequences. He’ll work with the results of the evil we bring about, of course, but to simply make it go away is to treat us less like the sons He wishes us to be, and more like the pet dog whose mess you occasionally clean up. (And this is the free will thing. God makes us co-creators in fact (CCC 307ish), which is a great honor and a responsibility and allows the ability to make things go horribly wrong if we so choose. But we’re real people, and what we do is done.)

And yes, that means that some pretty horrible things happen - the death of the seven year old girl with leukemia, as a result of Adam’s sin - but we have to remember that death, as hard and bad as it is, is not the end, so it is not as though the girl is simply irrevocably lost because God doesn’t care. And we also have to remember that God does bring good out of evil, even while He wishes we wouldn’t bring the evil about. In such a case, we may not understand what it is, but then again some people do begin to see it, even in such hard cases. But again, that God does so is a result of reason, not always (though not never either) of observation - we don’t have to see and completely understand God’s plan to know that it exists.

 

[oldcelt]

Actually, there are several. The entire story of salvation history, for one: the sin of Adam, the betrayal by Judas, the Crucifixion of God Himself are all undeniably bad. The result? The salvation of the human race, but not just a returning to where we were before. God has become Man that man might become sons of God (CCC 460), a far greater state than the garden state destroyed by Adam and Eve.

Much good has been brought out of much evil. This of course doesn’t make the evil less evil. But that’s the whole free will thing for you (more on which in a bit).

Job asked more or less the same thing. The answer? More or less that we can’t always find an obvious answer but that, as I am sure you are aware, the inability to find an obvious answer does not mean that there isn’t one.

I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase that a butterfly may flap it’s wings in Africa and cause a tornado in Texas. That may be exaggeration, but such complicated systems (technical name - chaotic) do exist, and if we can’t even follow the effects of small actions across the space of a day or two for the much simpler physical systems that are governed by rules that we more or less understand, why should we expect to be able to follow all the effects of every good or bad thing that is allowed to happen back and forth across the entire span of creation?

This is all well and good to say, but you are not capable of seeing what would happen should any of these ways you think you found actually be tried. Further, if by “God wishes to be loved” you mean “God wishes people to have warm and fuzzy feelings about and generally feel well disposed towards Himself” this is such a tiny slice of what’s going on as to be hard to respond to without a thousand qualifiers. I mean, yes, it appears that God wants us to be happy, and to be happy about Him, but He also wants us to be good, and to be so by our own volition. If that happens fully, then we’ll generally like God. But God’s not just trying to win a popularity contest here.

So yeah, God has the power to snap His fingers and put everyone in a happy place. But instead He wishes to treat us like actual people, to allow us to make real choices without simply overriding the bad consequences. He’ll work with the results of the evil we bring about, of course, but to simply make it go away is to treat us less like the sons He wishes us to be, and more like the pet dog whose mess you occasionally clean up. (And this is the free will thing. God makes us co-creators in fact (CCC 307ish), which is a great honor and a responsibility and allows the ability to make things go horribly wrong if we so choose. But we’re real people, and what we do is done.)

And yes, that means that some pretty horrible things happen - the death of the seven year old girl with leukemia, as a result of Adam’s sin - but we have to remember that death, as hard and bad as it is, is not the end, so it is not as though the girl is simply irrevocably lost because God doesn’t care. And we also have to remember that God does bring good out of evil, even while He wishes we wouldn’t bring the evil about. In such a case, we may not understand what it is, but then again some people do begin to see it, even in such hard cases. But again, that God does so is a result of reason, not always (though not never either) of observation - we don’t have to see and completely understand God’s plan to know that it exists.

As you know, your answers really don’t answer anything. You are giving the Abrahamic/Christian God an out that none of us would have in a court of law. Any one of us would be convicted of culpability in the acts mentioned. I no longer can accept that vision of God, because He is a rather horrible creature and worst of all is unjust to the innocent.

The standard answer of “We just don’t understand” is not adequate in a world where most people no longer fear or love something just because we are told we had better or else. Job shows this God in his true light to me; an enemy god who will use a good person to prove a point to his enemy, who he created and permitted to run roughshod over humanity.

I neither wish, nor expect to change any minds, but I do hope that I give people something to think about.

 

[ynotzap]

Christians are the “Resurrection People” Christ is their God-man who set the example for them to live by. He died for the greater good, the salvation of mankind. Faith is a gift. Human reason will fail to understand what grace reveals Who has known the mind of a spiritual man? It may be a philosophy forum, but it also includes theology. God is the I am who am, He is existence, and give existence to all things. Evil came into the world through Pride, a false estimation of ones’ self. Instead of humbly and thankfully accepting the blessing God bestows some of creation turns to itself and beholds the beauty that God bestowed and attributes it to itself The Christian believes in the life hereafter (for very good reasons, and faith.) and sees the suffering of mankind, and knows that God permits it, the weeds grow with the wheat, as a test, purification and proof of our worthiness of Union with Him in Paradise. We trust in His Goodness and Love no matter how much suffering we see in the world. This life is passing, all things change, but God remains the same. Without the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope, and Love the come from Jesus Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are lost for the real answers.and solutions and remain in the dark.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

As you know, your answers really don’t answer anything. You are giving the Abrahamic/Christian God an out that none of us would have in a court of law. Any one of us would be convicted of culpability in the acts mentioned. I no longer can accept that vision of God, because He is a rather horrible creature and worst of all is unjust to the innocent.

The standard answer of “We just don’t understand” is not adequate in a world where most people no longer fear or love something just because we are told we had better or else. Job shows this God in his true light to me; an enemy god who will use a good person to prove a point to his enemy, who he created and permitted to run roughshod over humanity.

I neither wish, nor expect to change any minds, but I do hope that I give people something to think about.

If you want to give me, at least, something to think about, you’re going to have to do more than say “as you know, you’re wrong, and God is bad and stuff.”

Further, the answer I gave you is quiet a bit more than “we just don’t understand.” If that’s all you got, then you might want to reread it. A two sentence summary for you: lots of stuff has lead us to understand that the God brings evil out of good, and in some particular cases we can see how it is so, but we cannot in all cases because things are complicated. To expect to be able to see every effect of every action across all of space and time is silly.

In math terms, if it helps, one can prove “there exists x st phi(x)” without actually finding the x that makes phi hold. Sometimes you can find it, sometimes you can’t, but saying that you have so far failed to find it does not make the statement false.

 

[Richca]

Interesting point…not one of these saints(obviously excluding Socrates) cites a specific situation where allowing evil to win the day leads to a greater good. Why do you think that is?
Can you tell me, or anyone else, why they cite no specifics? Can anyone offer a greater good to allowing a seven-year-old girl to be consumed by leukemia?
If this version of God wishes to be loved, then there are other ways that I can think of with my puny human mind.

Hello oldcelt,
Yes, God offers a greater good than allowing a seven year old girl to be consumed by leukemia here on earth, namely, eternal life and happiness in heaven. Human beings tend to think only of this short temporal life on earth whereas God’s providence is directed to the eternal salvation of human beings which is a much greater good than this short life on earth. If God allows some seven year old girl to be consumed by leukemia, you can be sure it is for some good and specifically, the eternal salvation of souls. And not only the salvation of the seven year old girl but all the people who may be involved in that little girl’s life. God only knows
that if that little girl had not contracted leukemia and lived a long life maybe she would have been a great sinner and ended up in hell for an eternity.

I would say your view of God exercising no providence over His own creation is not a God who is loving but a God who doesn’t care about His work. In the person of this view of God, it is written “He walketh about the poles of the heavens, and he does not consider our things.” (Job 22:14). Your view of God is not one of a loving and caring Father but one who could care a less to whatever happens to us. In fact, in your view, parents who bring forth children into the world and raise and care for them are more caring and loving than God. This of course is not the Christian God or the God who has revealed Himself to us as a loving and caring Father.

 

[oldcelt]

Hello oldcelt,
Yes, God offers a greater good than allowing a seven year old girl to be consumed by leukemia here on earth, namely, eternal life and happiness in heaven. Human beings tend to think only of this short temporal life on earth whereas God’s providence is directed to the eternal salvation of human beings which is a much greater good than this short life on earth. If God allows some seven year old girl to be consumed by leukemia, you can be sure it is for some good and specifically, the eternal salvation of souls. And not only the salvation of the seven year old girl but all the people who may be involved in that little girl’s life. God only knows
that if that little girl had not contracted leukemia and lived a long life maybe she would have been a great sinner and ended up in hell for an eternity.

I would say your view of God exercising no providence over His own creation is not a God who is loving but a God who doesn’t care about His work. In the person of this view of God, it is written “He walketh about the poles of the heavens, and he does not consider our things.” (Job 22:14). Your view of God is not one of a loving and caring Father but one who could care a less to whatever happens to us. In fact, in your view, parents who bring forth children into the world and raise and care for them are more caring and loving than God. This of course is not the Christian God or the God who has revealed Himself to us as a loving and caring Father.

I think I can speak with some certainty that many faithful are lost because of this God’s “kindness.” They know only one thing with certainty, that a beloved child died a horrific (and it is, month upon moth of pain, nausea, test upon test etc.) death and is no longer with them. They begin asking the same questions because they are logical questions to ask.
That is why Deism is slowly returning as a recognized belief system. We hold God too sacred to involve Him in the murder of children as in the OT. Instead, we have come to the realization that God’s Universe provides all we need to live quite nicely, but that disease, accident, weather and cruelty are part of the equation here on Earth. God didn’t will it, and will do nothing to stop it…we are on our own.

 

[oldcelt]

If you want to give me, at least, something to think about, you’re going to have to do more than say “as you know, you’re wrong, and God is bad and stuff.”

Further, the answer I gave you is quiet a bit more than “we just don’t understand.” If that’s all you got, then you might want to reread it. A two sentence summary for you: lots of stuff has lead us to understand that the God brings evil out of good, and in some particular cases we can see how it is so, but we cannot in all cases because things are complicated. To expect to be able to see every effect of every action across all of space and time is silly.

In math terms, if it helps, one can prove “there exists x st phi(x)” without actually finding the x that makes phi hold. Sometimes you can find it, sometimes you can’t, but saying that you have so far failed to find it does not make the statement false.

You gave me the salvation history (dogma) of your faith as an answer to why this God is not all-loving and just to human-kind. Still, no one, not even the great saints, gives a specific example of evil being used to achieve a greater good. They say it happens, but do not back it up with evidence or explain why it is necessary.
Deists do not expect a perfect world, we just don’t involve the Almighty one way or the other. For us, to say that God is good when he permits atrocities of all degrees is logically inconsistent. We can observe no good coming from these atrocities, just mankind rebuilding , getting on in their grief, and so on.

So far as your mathematical example, if you can only find something on occasion, then the “proof” is of very limited or no use.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

You gave me the salvation history (dogma) of your faith as an answer to why this God is not all-loving and just to human-kind. Still, no one, not even the great saints, gives a specific example of evil being used to achieve a greater good. They say it happens, but do not back it up with evidence or explain why it is necessary.

Yes they do. A specific example is the good that came out of murdering God. Some other specific examples may exist for things like deaths in the family, but things are too specific to make general overarching statements, and whether or not the reason is found varies. Particular situations are just that - particular.

General reasons why God would allow evil include free will and the fact that He wanted to make persons, not puppy dogs. Etc, etc, everything I said before. I do not understand how you can say the great saints don’t address your question, they do quiet often.

Deists do not expect a perfect world, we just don’t involve the Almighty one way or the other. For us, to say that God is good when he permits atrocities of all degrees is logically inconsistent. We can observe no good coming from these atrocities, just mankind rebuilding , getting on in their grief, and so on.

You’re too hung up on observing. Why should you be able to understand all that happens? Further, a God that allows evil is not logically inconsistent - that you fail to find a reason for it is not sufficient to say that - but a God who doesn’t care is inconsistent. A God who didn’t care wouldn’t create, by definition almost. We are not merely final products set in motion, we are beings whose continued existence happens because God specifically wills it so. If He did not care, we would cease to exist. If our existence could continue on without Him caring, then He would fail to be God (He would fail the first principle stuff).

So far as your mathematical example, if you can only find something on occasion, then the “proof” is of very limited or no use.

This is absolutely not true. For example, it is true that any differential equation meeting certain requirements has a solution, but the solutions to most of these differential equations cannot even be expressed in terms of any “normal” functions. But while finding explicit solutions to differential equations is not always necessary for applications, knowing that there are solutions is. The fact that there are solutions essentially says that the model woks, at which point we know that we can do things like look for energy bounds on solutions. That we haven’t found. So - we can quiet often work with the fact that something exists without having figured out what it is, even when it is straight up impossible to express what it is.

 

[ynotzap]

I know of the reality of evil spirits and believe in Satan’s existence. Many Saints if not all did too. Their lives and stories are in the history and achives of the Catholic Church. These evil spirits are used by God to test the saints. God being God draws good from the most evil of His creation. To look at creation from a purely human perspective will always fail to see the whole truth concerning suffering, and human tragedy. We are witnessing a spiritual battle of unseen forces whose presence usually can only been known by the evil effects they cause. Human secularism makes man his own savior, one subjected to complete human limitations and human failure. These spirits were good, and as God’s creation still manifests God’s glory in their nature, they became evil through their own choice, and I can assure you they exist, I have experiencial knowledge of their existence. I know for a fact that God allows evil to exist to draw good from it. It is impossible to please God without Faith given to us by His Son. Jesus Christ. You are free to choose your beliefs, but they will remain subjective to your own thinking, not objective according to the world apart from your thinking, the world of truth.

 

[tonyrey]

Iron_Donkey:
Moral evil is always a form of ignorance because ultimately it is not in our own or others’ interest to ignore or reject the teaching of Jesus.
Certainly it is ultimately not in our best interest, but we know this and do it anyway. I am perfectly capable of doing something that I completely and totally know is ultimately harmful to me because I decided that I wanted a transitory reward. Not, mind you, because I thought it would be worth it. I might easily know that it isn’t. In fact, I may very well even be telling myself in my head with actual words “this is wrong, I shouldn’t be doing this, why am I doing this, this is not worth it, I should stop this, this is wrong” while I’m doing it and yet not stop, at least not immediately. There is no ignorance in such an act. Humans are perfectly capable of behaving irrationally while knowing that we are doing so. How can we possibly be certain that ultimately it is not in our own or others’ interest to ignore or reject the teaching of Jesus given that our intelligence and knowledge are limited?

 

[oldcelt]

You’re too hung up on observing. Why should you be able to understand all that happens? Further, a God that allows evil is not logically inconsistent - that you fail to find a reason for it is not sufficient to say that - but a God who doesn’t care is inconsistent. A God who didn’t care wouldn’t create, by definition almost. We are not merely final products set in motion, we are beings whose continued existence happens because God specifically wills it so. If He did not care, we would cease to exist. If our existence could continue on without Him caring, then He would fail to be God (He would fail the first principle stuff).

I don’t claim to be able to understand everything. But you then go on to answer my observations with your own. Why is a loving God who permits his creation to be abused by evil forces (Satan and his minions) and them punish that creation if they come up short consistent?

The available evidence thus far seems to show us as the final (for now) product of a very long process.

Why would humanity cease to exist without the intervention of a god figure?

 

[chefmomster2]

Why would humanity cease to exist without the intervention of a god figure?

Humanity will cease to exist either way. Eventually we all die. Eventually our sun will die. Or a comet will destroy the earth. Or whatever.

With the intervention of God we still die eventually.

The difference is what happens after our death. Presumably, you don’t believe in an afterlife, but if you do you can correct me. Our God’s intervention enables us to attain an eternally happy existence. This happened through a gigantic act of causing great good out of the extreme evil arising out of man’s exercise of free will.

 

[ynotzap]

[Q
Why would humanity cease to exist without the intervention of a god figure?
[/QUOTE]

Humanity would cease to exist without God because existence is not our nature, human experience. We are completely dependent by our nature, we had a begining and existence is given to us If existence was our nature, we would always be, we are not the I Am who Am. We have a begining in time, even an exact conception date. You can say we are who are not,because of Him who is. We were created out of nothing, and everything we are was given to us We are held in existence, our nature is finite, not infinite.

 

[chefmomster2]

Thorns: It appears that God saw the potential bad and
did not decide against it, for whatever reason.

The “whatever reason” matters. In fact, it is the whole point! Yes, there is bad that can injure us physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc. Why do you assume that His reason does not involve a greater good.

Today our reading at Mass was the story of Lazarus. (John 11: 1-45)

Martha and Mary endured terrible anguish in the story. They knew Jesus loved their brother. They had faith that Jesus could intervene and save him. Instead, Jesus delayed. Even His aposles were concerned.

Finally Jesus arrived in Bethany only to discover that Lazarus had been in his tomb for 4 days. Martha and Mary in turn each said to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

They showed Jesus the tomb were Lazarus had been lain.

And Jesus wept.
So the Jews said, “See how he loved him.”
But some of them said,
“Could not the one who opened the eyes of the blind man
have done something so that this man would not have died?”

They knew Jesus loved Lazarus. They did not understand why he would let this evil thing, Lazarus’ death, happen. Jesus ordered them to open the tomb.

He cried out in a loud voice,
“Lazarus, come out!”
The dead man came out,
tied hand and foot with burial bands,
and his face was wrapped in a cloth.
So Jesus said to them,
“Untie him and let him go.”

Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary
and seen what he had done began to believe in him.

Why did Jesus permit this evil thing happen? He tells us Himself:

“This illness is not to end in death,
but is for the glory of God,
that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

So then Jesus said to them clearly,
“Lazarus has died.
And I am glad for you that I was not there,
that you may believe.
Let us go to him.”

“Did I not tell you that if you believe
you will see the glory of God?”

“Father, I thank you for hearing me.
I know that you always hear me;
but because of the crowd here I have said this,
that they may believe that you sent me.”

Jesus allowed those who loved Lazarus to endure their great grief. He did NOT cause the grief. He did it because He could make a greater good happen by allowing this to occur. Many people would come to know that Jesus was the Son of God, that they would glorify Him and the Father, and having faith, they would now be redeemed.

 

[chefmomster2]

Interesting point…not one of these saints(obviously excluding Socrates) cites a specific situation where allowing evil to win the day leads to a greater good. Why do you think that is?
Can you tell me, or anyone else, why they cite no specifics? Can anyone offer a greater good to allowing a seven-year-old girl to be consumed by leukemia?
If this version of God wishes to be loved, then there are other ways that I can think of with my puny human mind.

The saints and Socrates had no need to give an example. We know through our human experience that this occurs every day and that each of us has most likely experienced it in one way or another.

EXAMPLE: My dog is extremely ill. What do I do?

1. Try to cure him when doing so would prolong his suffering and might be unsuccessful.
2. Have my dog killed (put to sleep) whereby he loses his life.

Both of these are lousy choices. One is ostensibly “good”, attempting to cure one of God’s creatures. One is ostensibly bad, killing. But, the evil of killing is allowed because it leads to the greater good of the animal no longer being in pain.

Obviously, this is very simplistic.

The 7-year old leukemia victim is understandably a hard case. I can think of a few possible “greater good” results that might apply.

1. Being omniscient, God knows that by their care and testing on this child the doctors will move forward in researching childhood leukemia, thereby saving many other children who might otherwise have died.
2. Previously the mom and dad of this child, like most of us, unfortunately took life, love, and family for granted. God could use this awful situation to teach them about the fragility of life and the importance of the intangible like love, compassion, patience, and family.
3. Many people do not or will not give blood or have their bone marrow tested. By coming to know of this child’s plight many may finally become donors potentially saving many lives.

Now the virtue of the good result may never become known to the suffering family and friends of this child. Even if they did recognize it, they would not be spared agony or grief. But that does not diminish the good.

 

[oldcelt]

The saints and Socrates had no need to give an example. We know through our human experience that this occurs every day and that each of us has most likely experienced it in one way or another.

EXAMPLE: My dog is extremely ill. What do I do?

1. Try to cure him when doing so would prolong his suffering and might be unsuccessful.
2. Have my dog killed (put to sleep) whereby he loses his life.

Both of these are lousy choices. One is ostensibly “good”, attempting to cure one of God’s creatures. One is ostensibly bad, killing. But, the evil of killing is allowed because it leads to the greater good of the animal no longer being in pain.

Obviously, this is very simplistic.

The 7-year old leukemia victim is understandably a hard case. I can think of a few possible “greater good” results that might apply.

1. Being omniscient, God knows that by their care and testing on this child the doctors will move forward in researching childhood leukemia, thereby saving many other children who might otherwise have died.
2. Previously the mom and dad of this child, like most of us, unfortunately took life, love, and family for granted. God could use this awful situation to teach them about the fragility of life and the importance of the intangible like love, compassion, patience, and family.
3. Many people do not or will not give blood or have their bone marrow tested. By coming to know of this child’s plight many may finally become donors potentially saving many lives.

Now the virtue of the good result may never become known to the suffering family and friends of this child. Even if they did recognize it, they would not be spared agony or grief. But that does not diminish the good.

It does in the books of a great many. In my parents youth, the 1920-30s, people were not permitted to question these things on pain of swift and painful correction. Now that those days are gone, many are giving this a serious look and finding the old explanations wanting.
Personally, I wish I had found my peace earlier. One of my youthful decisions when I was looking at this was never to reproduce and chance putting a child in danger. My wife at first agreed but came to long for a child. My stubbornness at very least contributed to the failure of my marriage.
Now that I believe in a non-interventionist God, the world is no safer, but a fatal illness would not be part of God’s plan…merely a terrible coincidence of life on Earth.

 

[chefmomster2]

Now that I believe in a non-interventionist God, the world is no safer, but a fatal illness would not be part of God’s plan…merely a terrible coincidence of life on Earth.

I find this so very, very sad. Yes, bad things happen. These are due to many things which occur on Earth due to evil, ignorance and apathy. But believing in a God who does not or will not intercede seems to be a much worse position. My God may not always intercede in the ways I would choose, but I have faith that He does care and He is using the evil for Good. Therefore he is ultimately creating good for me each day. Miracles do occur. They are not everyday occurrances, but they happen. I have to believe there is a Good and Involved God.

It also gives me peace to know that this world with all of its sorrow and evil is not the end of things. I believe that there is an afterlife available and to which I have been redeemed. And, while I have MANY positive reasons for this belief, there is also the fact that if I sm wrong I will never know. If I am right, then it will be magnificent!

 

[oldcelt]

I find this so very, very sad. Yes, bad things happen. These are due to many things which occur on Earth due to evil, ignorance and apathy. But believing in a God who does not or will not intercede seems to be a much worse position. My God may not always intercede in the ways I would choose, but I have faith that He does care and He is using the evil for Good. Therefore he is ultimately creating good for me each day. Miracles do occur. They are not everyday occurrances, but they happen. I have to believe there is a Good and Involved God.

It also gives me peace to know that this world with all of its sorrow and evil is not the end of things. I believe that there is an afterlife available and to which I have been redeemed. And, while I have MANY positive reasons for this belief, there is also the fact that if I sm wrong I will never know. If I am right, then it will be magnificent!

I truly appreciate your concern, but don’t feel sad for me. I am much more at peace than I have been ever that I can recall. Even with a near-death experience only about 2 months back. If I am wrong, it is not for lack of effort.

 

[ynotzap]

I truly appreciate your concern, but don’t feel sad for me. I am much more at peace than I have been ever that I can recall. Even with a near-death experience only about 2 months back. If I am wrong, it is not for lack of effort.

My friend, I will venture a possibility. As a young boy you were subjected to a lot of discipline regarding the faith you were supposed to have, brought up by christian parents who thought innocently enough that they could pass on the faith by teaching and discipline. Faith can not be passed on it is a gift from Jesus Christ. We parents act as :The Savior accidentally. This usually goes against the grain in our young rebellious minds So what is supposed to be faith becomes and imposition, not something accepted, and especially so if we suffered for it. This builds a lot of obstinacy in us and may even effect our general behavior. Understanding what conversion really is, turning from sin and turning to God, accepting Him, repenting, and leading a new life of
grace we then can judge if we were really converted. We may have been, but we have not used the sacarament of reconciliation.

This stubbornness can be called “Hard Hearted” “Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart” I doubt if you were really converted, perhaps I’m wrong, and in any case I don’t judge you, its’ not my department. You did admit that you were stubborn with your wife. We all experience stubbornness in some form. We are born rebels. Thats why we have to be reborn. I believe you have resolved your life into a passified state, I do believe that God wants to bless you with a greater state of soul, one with Hope, Love, and Faith, and even joy. I know its possible because my own life wasn’t a happy one, and very lonely, I was orphaned and treated like Oliver Twist, and worse. God spared me the bitterness that naturally comes from this treatment, and it was done by His grace which gave me the understanding of what life is all about, and why certain things happen. So here is praying the best for you, and that you experience the Love God has for you.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’d be interested in seeing his comments on the subject. Where could I find them?

ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/JP2DEVIL.htm

Here’s a little of what is in the above link:

"Satan wishes to destroy life lived in accordance with the truth, life in the fullness of good, the supernatural life of grace and love. . . .

"As the result of the sin of our first parents, this fallen angel has acquired dominion over man to a certain extent. This is the doctrine that has been constantly professed and proclaimed by the Church, and which the Council of Trent confirmed in its treatise on original sin (cf. DS, 1511).

"In Sacred Scripture we find various indications of this influence on man and on the dispositions of his spirit (and of his body). In the Bible, Satan is called the prince of this world' (cf. Jn. 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) and even the god of this world’ (2 Cor. 4:4).