Evolution & Adam & Eve

[James_Urda]

Could you tell me if the following position would be within the confines of dogmatic Church teaching?
According to some scientist, the level of genetic variation present in humans today rules out a founding population with fewer than several thousand individuals. Lets assume these scientist are correct (and they may not be).
What makes a “human” and what makes an “almost, but not quite yet human”? The difference is presumably the presence (or not) of a human soul sent directly from God. A physically human large brained upright walking ape without a soul directly infused by God is not fully human, it may be human physically with human-compatible DNA, but is not human spiritually since it does not have a human soul. A physically human large brained upright walking ape with a human soul is human, both physically and spiritually.
Start with a population of un-souled upright apes, call them pre-human because they are not quite human yet. God puts human souls into two of them, Adam and Eve. Adding a soul does not change the original pre-human DNA at all. We now have a pair of humans, Adam and Eve, from a population of pre-humans. Adam and Eve only mate with each other and have human children with souls (put in directly by God at conception per CCC). The children find mates outside their immediate family so they mate with some of the pre-humans – an activity even more likely in a post-fallen world. This is possible because their DNA is compatible with pre-human DNA; the mating is open to the possibility of creating life. God gives a soul to all hybrid human/pre-human offspring so all the children with at least one human parent are also human, i.e. they have a soul. Because only the descendants of the initial pair mate with pre-humans, all the children from such matings are descended from both Adam and Eve since they will have genes from both as their grandparents, great-grandparents etc.

  Also, perhaps the pre-humans found the “souled” humans attractive perhaps because of aspects of the soul having positive influences on behavior, albeit a fallen soul. Because of the aforementioned selection process, over time (perhaps 50,000 – 75,000 years) the number of humans increases and the number of pre-humans declines until the pre-humans are extinct. In the process the humans acquire the genes from the pre-humans that are reflected in the current human population.

In scientific terms we have a large interbreeding population, as shown by the current level of genetic diversity in humans. Theologically all humans are descended from both first ensouled pair.

 

[cjforJesus]

Every person was created by God.The soul is infused at the moment of conception.

 

[Jozefo]

My personal opinion fwiw: according to the Bible, mankind was created, and not necessarily humans. From the biblical account, there had to be other humans east of Eden in the land of Nod, otherwise Cain could not have had wives.

Also, I think the creation narratives illustrate in allegory form, of mankind becoming self-aware. The accounting of the Fall has Adam and Eve blissfully unaware in the Garden, innocent in their ignorance, until they presume to become as gods, and eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Serpent, being more subtle and cunning than all the other creatures is Lucifer, and can be portrayed as liberating man from ignorance, leading them to becoming enlightened. Conversely, he can be portrayed as leading man into rebellion against God. In either case, mankind becomes estranged from God, and is doomed to struggle in the earth for his sustenance.

So as I see it, mankind is different from humanity, in that man has godly dignity, infused by God with personhood, ie a soul.

 

[twf]

The OP’s account is similar to my own private musings at times - I can personally accept that scenario - but until the Magisterium makes a judgment on the possibility of ensouled humans mating with un-souled hominids, it is purely speculation. As Jozefo points out, the Biblical narrative does imply that there were other humans (of some sort) from which Adam and Eve’s children drew spouses.

 

[Spencerian]

Hi, James, and welcome to the forums.

Your supposition is pretty analogous to how I accept human evolution as seen within a Christian framework.

Your design supports general evolution (to which the Church has no objection) but reserves that, somewhere in God’s design, he designated two humanoids of Earth with a supernatural gift, a rational soul, that would define of the new genus of homo sapiens.

This concept also supports the special nature of a soul as united to a body (some of the earliest people in Scripture living a much longer life than most), allows a wide genetic compatibility that doesn’t infer or require incest, and still supports the dogma that Adam and Eve were the first humans–just not the first hominids.

Catholic Answers has an interesting tract that discusses this subject.

 

[James_Urda]

My personal opinion fwiw: according to the Bible, mankind was created, and not necessarily humans. From the biblical account, there had to be other humans east of Eden in the land of Nod, otherwise Cain could not have had wives.

Also, I think the creation narratives illustrate in allegory form, of mankind becoming self-aware. The accounting of the Fall has Adam and Eve blissfully unaware in the Garden, innocent in their ignorance, until they presume to become as gods, and eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Serpent, being more subtle and cunning than all the other creatures is Lucifer, and can be portrayed as liberating man from ignorance, leading them to becoming enlightened. Conversely, he can be portrayed as leading man into rebellion against God. In either case, mankind becomes estranged from God, and is doomed to struggle in the earth for his sustenance.

So as I see it, mankind is different from humanity, in that man has godly dignity, infused by God with personhood, ie a soul.

In order to sin you cannot be unaware. For sin to be a sin, the sinner must know he is sinning. I don’t picture Adam as a naïve, dumb Tarzan but more of a very smart Superman. God made known to Adam and Eve that they must not eat of the tree of good and evil. Seems to me they wanted to determine for themselves what is good and what is evil.

 

[Jozefo]

My personal opinion fwiw: according to the Bible, mankind was created, and not necessarily humans. From the biblical account, there had to be other humans east of Eden in the land of Nod, otherwise Cain could not have had wives.

Also, I think the creation narratives illustrate in allegory form, of mankind becoming self-aware. The accounting of the Fall has Adam and Eve blissfully unaware in the Garden, innocent in their ignorance, until they presume to become as gods, and eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Serpent, being more subtle and cunning than all the other creatures is Lucifer, and can be portrayed as liberating man from ignorance, leading them to becoming enlightened. Conversely, he can be portrayed as leading man into rebellion against God. In either case, mankind becomes estranged from God, and is doomed to struggle in the earth for his sustenance.

So as I see it, mankind is different from humanity, in that man has godly dignity, infused by God with personhood, ie a soul.

I need to clarify that all humans were indeed created, but that a man is a human with a soul. I see personhood as self-awareness and accountability to God.

 

[Aloysium]

I . . . God made known to Adam and Eve that they must not eat of the tree of good and evil. Seems to me they wanted to determine for themselves what is good and what is evil.

They wanted to be gods in other words. Yep, I agree.

 

[James_Urda]

I need to clarify that all humans were indeed created, but that a man is a human with a soul. I see personhood as self-awareness and accountability to God.

So are human babies not truly human? There level of self-awarness is not like that of an adult?

 

[Jozefo]

In order to sin you cannot be unaware. For sin to be a sin, the sinner must know he is sinning. I don’t picture Adam as a naïve, dumb Tarzan but more of a very smart Superman. God made known to Adam and Eve that they must not eat of the tree of good and evil. Seems to me they wanted to determine for themselves what is good and what is evil.

Yes, awareness is a necessary condition. In the Garden, God gave them everything with one proviso: do not eat of the Tree. They were fully aware of that, and of their obligation to obey.

But until they actually ate the fruit, they were unaware of guilt. They took what was not theirs to take. In the process, they incurred a debt that could not be repaid, since they had not the ability to create anew what they destroyed - innocence.

 

[Jozefo]

So are human babies not truly human? There level of self-awarness is not like that of an adult?

This is a hard question. I think they are human, but not part of mankind, except through their parents, wherefrom they inherit Adam’s estate of sin.

As I said before, I think the biblical accounting is allegorical, and not necessarily a literal accounting of facts.

 

[edwest2]

Evolution is a banned topic.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

This is a hard question. I think they are human, but not part of mankind, except through their parents, wherefrom they inherit Adam’s estate of sin.

As I said before, I think the biblical accounting is allegorical, and not necessarily a literal accounting of facts.

“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

Source: Humani Generis

Ed

 

[James_Urda]

This is a hard question. I think they are human, but not part of mankind, except through their parents, wherefrom they inherit Adam’s estate of sin.

As I said before, I think the biblical accounting is allegorical, and not necessarily a literal accounting of facts.

So do you believe that God initially created 2 humans - Adam and Eve? The CCC says God places a soul in humans at conception. To me a baby is a human. No doubt.

 

[Jozefo]

So do you believe that God initially created 2 humans - Adam and Eve? The CCC says God places a soul in humans at conception. To me a baby is a human. No doubt.

I think God created everything, but that regarding people, he created humans first, and then mankind afterward.

Consider an aboriginal human, being born in the heart of a jungle, growing old and dying and never knowing of God the Creator. He is human, no doubt, but is he a man? I don’t think so.

 

[Jozefo]

“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

Source: Humani Generis

Ed

I think I’m in agreement with the above citation.

 

[The_Serpent]

“She preserved him, that was first formed by God the father of the world, when he was created alone.” Wisdom 10:1

There are some tough Biblical passages and Church teaching to get by with that theory. It is a good try to reconcile science and theology. However the issue of having sex with hominids without souls sounds a lot like… a person having sex with an animal. The issue of Adam and Eve’s parents and grandparents, etc is another issue to deal with. They don’t get to be human?

 

[James_Urda]

“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

Source: Humani Generis

Ed

edwest2, Does this statement go against my initial post? thanks,

 

[James_Urda]

“She preserved him, that was first formed by God the father of the world, when he was created alone.” Wisdom 10:1

There are some tough Biblical passages and Church teaching to get by with that theory. It is a good try to reconcile science and theology. However the issue of having sex with hominids without souls sounds a lot like… a person having sex with an animal. The issue of Adam and Eve’s parents and grandparents, etc is another issue to deal with. They don’t get to be human?

After the Fall, I would not doubt that sex with other hominids may have occurred. What tells us that God would not have infused a sould into such hybrids?

 

[James_Urda]

“She preserved him, that was first formed by God the father of the world, when he was created alone.” Wisdom 10:1

There are some tough Biblical passages and Church teaching to get by with that theory. It is a good try to reconcile science and theology. However the issue of having sex with hominids without souls sounds a lot like… a person having sex with an animal. The issue of Adam and Eve’s parents and grandparents, etc is another issue to deal with. They don’t get to be human?

The Serpant - Can you be more specific in explaining the biblical passages and Church teaching that need to be gotton by?