Evolution & Adam & Eve

[James_Urda]

We are conceived as a whole person whose structure can be understood in terms of body, mind and spirit. There is one thing - a person. Nothing is received.

Can a human today can be conceived as a whole person, could a hybrid also be concevied as a whole person? See my definition of hybrid above.

 

[James_Urda]

Having a soul is nothing to do with genes, if it were you could invent a DNA swab test to determine who does and who doesn’t have a soul, and therefore who you deem human and sub-human, just the kind of thing white supremacists would like.

Don’t know what the Church teaches, but would hope it wouldn’t want to go down that road under any circumstances ever.

Yes, I know souls don’t have genes. I beleive all humans today have souls. So I would not act as you suggest. Since the Church allows for belief in evolution and I believe it would allow for us to have bodily evolved from a hominid; so I believe the Church would acknowledge there were hominids that did not have a soul at one time in the distant past. Since then (and I talking 10s of thousands of years) these hominids would either mated with offspring from Adam and Eve (and then given a soul) or have been killed in events like the Flood. God may have intervened at times to ensure such hominids were destroyed. Today everyone is an offspring of Adam and Eve and have souls.

 

[James_Urda]

We are conceived as a whole person whose structure can be understood in terms of body, mind and spirit. There is one thing - a person. Nothing is received.

Ok, let me rephrase - If today a person can be conceived, body and soul as a whole person, why not the same for the person conceived from a human-hominid conception in the distant past? - where the human is descended from Adam and Eve.

 

[Aloysium]

Ok, let me rephrase - If today a person can be conceived, body and soul as a whole person, why not the same for the person conceived from a human-hominid conception in the distant past? - where the human is descended from Adam and Eve.

Man is a being created different from the animals and different from the angels (demons).
We today are all descendants of Adam and Eve, no hominids in the mix.

 

[nmgauss]

Man is a being created different from the animals and different from the angels (demons).
We today are all descendants of Adam and Eve, no hominids in the mix.

Study of embryology of mammals reveals that all mammals have the same stages of embryo development into similar looking fetuses. This is evidence that there is little difference in the physiology of one mammal vs. another. They all need air and water and nourishment from living matter. They have eyes and brains and reproductive systems and gastrointestinal systems similar to humans.

The same goes even more closely for all fifteen species of the genus Homo. A Homo sapiens could have easily interbreeded with a Homo habilis or a Homo erectus. Their physiologies would have been so similar that there is a high likelihood that hybrids could have been fertile.

So if Cain mated with a Homo erectus, would the offspring carry the burden of original sin?

 

[Aloysium]

Study of embryology of mammals reveals that all mammals have the same stages of embryo development into similar looking fetuses. This is evidence that there is little difference in the physiology of one mammal vs. another. They all need air and water and nourishment from living matter. They have eyes and brains and reproductive systems and gastrointestinal systems similar to humans.

The same goes even more closely for all fifteen species of the genus Homo. A Homo sapiens could have easily interbreeded with a Homo habilis or a Homo erectus. Their physiologies would have been so similar that there is a high likelihood that hybrids could have been fertile.

So if Cain mated with a Homo erectus, would the offspring carry the burden of original sin?

I know this sounds very, very rude, but if you were to mate with a chimpanzee, would that creature carry the burden of original sin? I’d say, “No.”
We are not animals; we are a different creature altogether, in spite of what your secular “mythology” would say.

 

[nmgauss]

I know this sounds very, very rude, but if you were to mate with a chimpanzee, would that creature carry the burden of original sin? I’d say, “No.”
We are not animals; we are a different creature altogether, in spite of what your secular “mythology” would say.

According to biologists and anthropologists who study differences and similarities between members of the genus Homo, since humans are Homo sapiens, they are just as animalistic as Homo erectus or Homo habilis. All of us in this genus stand erect, have similar brains, digestive systems and reproductive systems. Why are some us animals and others are not?

 

[The_Serpent]

I think the key question from my perspective is below.
If a human today can receive a human soul at conception, why not a hybrid when conceived? The hybrid is defined as an offspring with a parent whose genetic ancestors are Adam & Eve and the other parent not having Adam and Eve as ancestors. Does saying the hybrid has a human soul go against dogmatic Catholic teaching?
Is theirdogmatic Church teaching that speaks specifically to this question?

You have a good perspective on this. I think I would like your theory better if you held that the “Hominids” that marry into Adam’s family would receive a soul from the choice of marriage; the two shall become one flesh?

 

[weller2]

Having a soul is nothing to do with genes, if it were you could invent a DNA swab test to determine who does and who doesn’t have a soul,

Read any argument about abortion on this board. Most Catholics today believe that:

(1) ensoulment happens at conception (although that one is NOT an official teaching of the Church). By which criteria then the ensoulment happens? The only possible criterion at that stage is a genetic one.

(2) there is no ontological difference between a human embryo and and a adult human (cf. position on IVF and embryonic stem cells – embryo destruction is viewed as murder). However, the only thing the embryo an adult have in common is the DNA. So again, humanity is tied to DNA.

(3) an embryo/zygote/fetus in uterus should be treated as a distinct person from the mother by virtue of having unique DNA. Again, DNA defines personhood.

 

[Jozefo]

I came to understand better what a soul is, when I discovered what a person in law is. Say a man named John Smith has a business, and he finds out he can get better asset protection by incorporating, so he forms John Smith Inc. The incorporated entity is a person in law.

I think a soul is the same kind of thing. I know, that will probably set off a few alarm bells, but think about it. If God endows human beings with souls, he sets up a different regime for humans under which to operate, versus the rest of the animal kingdom. He gave man dominion over the earth and everything in it, except other men. It’s an office, an agency appointed by God unto men to be stewards of His creation.

So a man’s soul is like John Smith’s corporation. It’s an extension of his identity, giving him certain benefits, and obligations as well.

 

[nmgauss]

Read any argument about abortion on this board. Most Catholics today believe that:

(1) ensoulment happens at conception (although that one is NOT an official teaching of the Church). By which criteria then the ensoulment happens? The only possible criterion at that stage is a genetic one.

Conception occurs in the oviduct. If something happens shortly thereafter so that implantation in the uterine wall does not occur, that human life leaves the womb and dies. If something happens and implantation does not occur, is she guilty of murder?

 

[nmgauss]

Read any argument about abortion on this board. Most Catholics today believe that:

(3) an embryo/zygote/fetus in uterus should be treated as a distinct person from the mother by virtue of having unique DNA. Again, DNA defines personhood.

Do identical twins have different souls? Their DNA is identical, so I would expect them to have identical souls.

 

[nmgauss]

Do identical twins have different souls? Their DNA is identical, so I would expect them to have identical souls.

While monozygotic twins may have had identical DNA at conception, changes in the DNA through copying errors and random mutations often result in divergence of the genetic traits as the twins grow in the womb. It seems that if monozygotic twins are identical at conception, their souls should be identical. However, if diversion of genetic traits occurs through growth and the souls remain the same as originally ensouled, there arises differences between the nature of each twin and its soul.

 

[inocente]

Yes, I know souls don’t have genes. I beleive all humans today have souls. So I would not act as you suggest. Since the Church allows for belief in evolution and I believe it would allow for us to have bodily evolved from a hominid; so I believe the Church would acknowledge there were hominids that did not have a soul at one time in the distant past. Since then (and I talking 10s of thousands of years) these hominids would either mated with offspring from Adam and Eve (and then given a soul) or have been killed in events like the Flood. God may have intervened at times to ensure such hominids were destroyed. Today everyone is an offspring of Adam and Eve and have souls.

Read any argument about abortion on this board. Most Catholics today believe that:

(1) ensoulment happens at conception (although that one is NOT an official teaching of the Church). By which criteria then the ensoulment happens? The only possible criterion at that stage is a genetic one.

(2) there is no ontological difference between a human embryo and and a adult human (cf. position on IVF and embryonic stem cells – embryo destruction is viewed as murder). However, the only thing the embryo an adult have in common is the DNA. So again, humanity is tied to DNA.

(3) an embryo/zygote/fetus in uterus should be treated as a distinct person from the mother by virtue of having unique DNA. Again, DNA defines personhood.

Sorry guys but your posts are what is called scientism, the view that only science can explain things.

By all means accept evolution, but the sanctity of a person cannot be reduced to a DNA swab test, just as Christ’s DNA cannot be obtained by swabbing consecrated bread and wine.

The Church teaches that a soul is spiritual, that it is created by God, and that it has nothing to do with the parents, so on all three counts for Catholics it’s got nothing to do with genes. - catholic.com/quickquestions/what-exactly-is-a-soul

 

[weller2]

Conception occurs in the oviduct. If something happens shortly thereafter so that implantation in the uterine wall does not occur, that human life leaves the womb and dies. If something happens and implantation does not occur, is she guilty of murder?

No, because that is a “natural process”.

However, if she knowingly takes drugs which prevent implantation, then she has committed an abortion. See for example this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=641629 (Also note that in Catholicism abortion is an excommunicable offense, but murder is not.)

 

[weller2]

By all means accept evolution, but the sanctity of a person cannot be reduced to a DNA swab test, just as Christ’s DNA cannot be obtained by swabbing consecrated bread and wine.

And this is precisely why I don’t believe in automatic ensoulment at conception – it necessitates genetic criteria for ensoulment.

Neanderthals had burial rituals, which means they had mysticism / religion – how could they have that without a soul? But Neandertals were clearly not human.

 

[nmgauss]

Sorry guys but your posts are what is called scientism, the view that only science can explain things.

By all means accept evolution, but the sanctity of a person cannot be reduced to a DNA swab test, just as Christ’s DNA cannot be obtained by swabbing consecrated bread and wine.

The Church teaches that a soul is spiritual, that it is created by God, and that it has nothing to do with the parents, so on all three counts for Catholics it’s got nothing to do with genes. - catholic.com/quickquestions/what-exactly-is-a-soul

Does the church teach that the soul that God has given us is a generic one and not necessarily matched to ones personality?

 

[nmgauss]

And this is precisely why I don’t believe in automatic ensoulment at conception – it necessitates genetic criteria for ensoulment.

Neanderthals had burial rituals, which means they had mysticism / religion – how could they have that without a soul? But Neandertals were clearly not human.

Whether or not Neanderthals were human has been a controversial subject among anthropologists. Analysis of DNA has detected interbreeding between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon humans. Some have classified Neanderthals as a subspecies of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis to distinguish between Homo sapiens sapiensis.

 

[edwest2]

Yes, I know souls don’t have genes. I beleive all humans today have souls. So I would not act as you suggest. Since the Church allows for belief in evolution and I believe it would allow for us to have bodily evolved from a hominid; so I believe the Church would acknowledge there were hominids that did not have a soul at one time in the distant past. Since then (and I talking 10s of thousands of years) these hominids would either mated with offspring from Adam and Eve (and then given a soul) or have been killed in events like the Flood. God may have intervened at times to ensure such hominids were destroyed. Today everyone is an offspring of Adam and Eve and have souls.

Show one Church document that references any sort of hybrid or hominid. There aren’t any.

Peace,
Ed

 

[nmgauss]

What is the nature of the soul? Is it akin to a personality? Does the soul remain unchanged throughout a person’s life even though a person may change as it grows?