Evolution and Creationism

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Besides, finding out an organ has uses as we learn more isn’t a problem for me. Try explaining the uselessness of wisdom teeth or why we have a tail during embryonic development that is usually reabsorbed…except in cases where it doesn’t and the baby is born with a tail?
Part of your answer is correct. We didn’t know about the uses for these so called vestigial organs. This came with time and was challenged non-evos. How can you be sure we will not find uses for each and every one, given enough time?

However, from a design point of view - 500 or so conserved components have the ability to make all the body plans we see. Design would see some of these as defects occurring during early development. This is not a failure of design, it is a consequence of the 2nd law and genetic entropy.
 
Is it your opinion that modern science ought to include metaphysics and the spiritual realm?
It’s my opinion that those who engage in call it science-related activity -
should be aware of the limiting boundaries of Mass-Energy-Space-Time

Without a mindset completely open to anything/everything
how can any claim to be in complete REASONED investigation of any Question?
 
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However, from a design point of view - 500 or so conserved components have the ability to make all the body plans we see.
Are you saying the human body plan was not unique from the start? I thought your teachings were that God specifically designed humans “in his image”. Then why would our embryo always go through a tail phase or a gill phase?
 
How can you be sure we will not find uses for each and every one, given enough time?
I have to question this as well. Wisdom teeth are disappearing. Various populations have none, some undeveloped ones and some still grow them even though they cause massive problems due to our jaw size not being able to accommodate them…thus, they are removed. I see no future use for them?

You are giving very general answers to specific questions. I will clink on a link if it explicitly answers one of my above questions and I have no problems with PDFs.
 
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Freddy:
… has actually prompted me to investigate Bhuddism to see if I’m missing out on something (whereas some of the Christian comments in this thread have only confirmed decisions I made many decades ago).
Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Before you claim victim status at the hands of malevolent Christian persecutors, review first the ridicule and sarcasm and lack of civility that characterize your posts in the many forums and threads in CA.
I’m talking about comments regarding beliefs, not general insults. The only thing that’s been insulted here is my intelligence…
 
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IWantGod:
But i see nothing speculative about accumulative changes (micro-evolution) resulting in a distinct kind.
Why would accumulative changes result in a distinct kind? To me, cumulative changes can only result into distinct sizes/color of the same kind but not structure and functionality because functionality can not be added upon or improved, it can only be lost.

Example: A limb that walks has its structure supporting the function (walking or running), you can not have cumulative changes to get a wing that flies, you first have to loose original function and structure.
So a fish couldn’t swim and fly. Or swim and walk. And a bird couldn’t fly and swim under water. And a squirrel couldn’t walk and glide. And a bat can’t walk and fly. You do know that a penguin is a bird? And that mammals live in the ocean. And some fly?
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rossum:
The earth is still 4.5 billion years old and non-avian dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago.
There’s no 4.5 billion years, ‘Time’ is an experience by consciousness and an earth year is a reference by a conscious observer on earth.
Then the planet was formed 4.5 billion ‘earth years’ ago.

Edit: I can’t believe I had to write that.
 
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If anyone cares mine is that Hume is generic because he uses sacred scripture out of context to attack Chirstians, which is a very old move dating back to the first and second century.
It’s undeniable that a belief system that requires “walking by faith and not by sight” for at least some components of the system is less defensible on-the-whole than a system that “walks” exclusively by sight.

I have only to point my sappers at the parts of your “wall” that can’t be demonstrated and I’ll score a breach.

But more importantly, you’re just trying to place your opposition in little boxes. From there, their opinions are less “legitimate concerns from rational people searching for truth” and more “squawking from talking heads”.

It’s a defense mechanism as old as rhetoric itself.
And ‘generic’ is not a term I would use for @Hume. His views are quite specific and, I’m sure he would agree, are his alone. This might seem perverse but I’d look forward to having a disagreement with him.
Oh, I’m sure we’ll eventually find something. For example, I think religion is a natural byproduct of our intelligence. We became self-aware to the point of relative species-wide narcissism where we wanted to know “why” because we were sure it existed, at least in our case. In a primitive setting, religion answers metaphysical questions by design - so we invented it.

I’m not sure you’re 100% on board with that idea, right?
 
First, one has to have empirical (aka, precise observations) evidence. Macroevolution has none and relies on imagination rather than facts.
“Empirical” doesn’t use the word “precise”. It’s simply “based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.”

There are very, very few “living fossils” today. The fossils we find came and went. And where we have multiple specimens, they show variations in their comings and goings.

Moreover, most of the critters found today, like us, simply can’t be found in the fossil record - at least not very far back.

The best explanation for this that uses the fewest assumptions is that life evolved.
Yeah, right.
Well, I’m an atheist that believes in evolution. Rossum is a Buddhist that believes in evolution. There are scores of Catholics on this forum that believe in evolution. So it seems that evolution is not a worldview unto itself.
Contradiction.
Not at all. Just an example of two species that haven’t fully speciated from their common ancestor. They’ve just nearly done it. They produce exactly what we’d expect to see - offspring with serious genetic issues.
Since macroevolution claims that all living creatures have a common ancestor then one would reasonably want to see evidence of the necessary step (non-continuous) events that show a non-vegetative life becomes vegetative, non-animal becomes animal, and non human being becomes human.
Sure. The protist (neither human nor plant) became algae and fish. Humans came waaaaaaaaaay later. Literally in the last blink, if geological time was compressed into one day.
Bald denial.
 
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rossum:
You were disputing it. Freddy was discussing small microevolutionary changes in animals’ coats. You said: “Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.” I pointed out that you were wrong, with an obvious example.

I am happy that you recognise your error.
He said: If a genetic glitch happens to give one animal a slightly thicker coat and it gets warmer then he’s at a disadvantage

I dispute that ,because there is no animal living today that is not fit for its environment .
Seems like there’s a lot of kangaroos that weren’t fit for the environment in which they found themselves:

‘Across Australia’s most populous state, at least 5m kangaroos are thought to have died gruesome deaths since one of the country’s worst droughts began nearly four years ago’. An Australian drought is killing millions of kangaroos | The Economist

You either evolve to adapt to changing conditions or you die. Four years is a tad too short to allow that. So they’re dead, Jim. They’re all dead.
 
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Oh, I’m sure we’ll eventually find something. For example, I think religion is a natural byproduct of our intelligence. We became self-aware to the point of relative species-wide narcissism where we wanted to know “why” because we were sure it existed, at least in our case. In a primitive setting, religion answers metaphysical questions by design - so we invented it.

I’m not sure you’re 100% on board with that idea, right?
You talking to me? Puts beer down, rolls up sleeves and spits on hands…

Actually I’d probably go ignorance as the first step - as in lack of knowledge, not stupidity.

Man gets angry, throws a rock against the cave wall. Big crack. Wow, who did that? It was Dave. He’s in a bad mood. Well give him some antelope meat! Keep him happy!

Big storm, lightning. Even bigger crack. Wow, so who did that. Dunno, but he must be in a really bad mood. Give him the whole antelope!

Dave has a think. Hey guys, just give me some more antelope and I’ll make sure the thunder guy stays chilled. And some of those berries and I’ll…umm…keep the tigers away and guarantee a good hunt tomorrow.

Someone gets hit by lightning? Hey, the berries he gave weren’t ripe enough so the thunder guy was angry. Someone eaten by a tiger? Not enough antelope meat in his offering so the tiger spirit took him.
 
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Freddy:
And articulated speech? A microevolutionary change. Nothing more.
Sorry Fred, that’s not an argument.
Correct. I wasn’t making one.

Now, how about those details of the maximum number of ‘microevolutionary’ steps before the whole process grinds to a halt. Remember? The number of steps. Where it starts. Why it happens. How long it takes etc etc.

You say it prevents macroevolution (seemingly having a preference not to use the blazingly obvious argument that a 6,000 year old planet simply doesn’t give enough time for it to happen to 99% of contemporary species…). Now is this some smoke and mirrors ruse employed to avoid having to use the young earth argument or do you have something more to give us?
 
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You either evolve to adapt to changing conditions or you die. Four years is a tad too short to allow that. So they’re dead, Jim. They’re all dead.
In real life, you die… there’s no fit offspring to come save the day.
 
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Freddy:
You either evolve to adapt to changing conditions or you die. Four years is a tad too short to allow that. So they’re dead, Jim. They’re all dead.
In real life, you die… there’s no fit offspring to come save the day.
But you said ‘… there is no animal living today that is not fit for its environment’.

In one post you say that there aren’t any offspring that are not fit and in the very next post say there are no fit offspring.

Another milestone. I guess the only way you can beat this is to directly contradict yourself in the same post.
 
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So a fish couldn’t swim and fly. Or swim and walk. And a bird couldn’t fly and swim under water. And a squirrel couldn’t walk and glide. And a bat can’t walk and fly. You do know that a penguin is a bird? And that mammals live in the ocean. And some fly?
We are talking about ‘functionality for survival’ and no, a fish doesn’t fly to survive just like goalkeeper doesn’t fly to survive when they prevent an opponent from scoring. Gliding out of water is part of swimming and the structures they use are designed and fit for that purpose, doesn’t mean they are becoming birds. This applies to all the others.
Then the planet was formed 4.5 billion ‘earth years’ ago.
‘Earth year’ is a concept. Time is an experience. There’s no 4.5 billion earth years if it was not experienced.
 
So a fish couldn’t swim and fly. Or swim and walk. And a bird couldn’t fly and swim under water. And a squirrel couldn’t walk and glide. And a bat can’t walk and fly. You do know that a penguin is a bird? And that mammals live in the ocean. And some fly?
We’re looking for a flying, walking, swimming plant or an animal that uses articulated speech. Got any?
 
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Freddy:
So a fish couldn’t swim and fly. Or swim and walk. And a bird couldn’t fly and swim under water. And a squirrel couldn’t walk and glide. And a bat can’t walk and fly. You do know that a penguin is a bird? And that mammals live in the ocean. And some fly?
We’re looking for a flying, walking, swimming plant or an animal that uses articulated speech. Got any?
Why do they have to swim, fly, walk and talk?

Anyway, any answers on tbe question re the limits of 'microevolution?
 
But i see nothing speculative about accumulative changes (micro-evolution) resulting in a distinct kind.
So, how is a climate change going to wait around for all these slightly modified offspring to eventually morph into something fit. In real life, if a climate change comes, and your not fit, right from the start , you die… end of story.
 
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“Empirical” doesn’t use the word “precise”. It’s simply “based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.”
I certainly hope you are not arguing to allow imprecise observations into the scientific method.

Early in the Enlightenment period, the arguments between the rationalists and empiricists centered on the better (best?) way to do science. The rationalist stressed the imprecision of subjective experience (kinda like rossum) and the empiricists stressed that experience could be objectified via precision. The result: logical empiricism.
There are very, very few “living fossils” today. The fossils we find came and went. And where we have multiple specimens, they show variations in their comings and goings.

Moreover, most of the critters found today, like us, simply can’t be found in the fossil record - at least not very far back.

The best explanation for this that uses the fewest assumptions is that life evolved.
Variations within types in the fossil record certainly indicate mircroevolution. And, if a definition of species included certain features, say in bone structure, the fossils may indicate macroevolution. But as noted previously, this is a circular argument requiring an elastic definition of species.

What is objected to in evolution theory, specifically in the macroevolution section, is the claim that a common ancestor exists (existed) for all living creatures. On this claim, all we have is one assumption and no evidence. But although one is few, it remains no more than that – an assumption.

Elevating an assumption to a hypothesis, to a theory, to a law is not the scientific method for either an empiricist or a rationalist.
Just an example of two species that haven’t fully speciated from their common ancestor. They’ve just nearly done it. They produce exactly what we’d expect to see - offspring with serious genetic issues.
Creatures with “serious genetic issues” works against the assumption that “they’ve nearly done it”. The better assumption is that the creatures are on a short path to extinction.
The protist (neither human nor plant) became algae and fish. Humans came waaaaaaaaaay later. Literally in the last blink, if geological time was compressed into one day.
Just repeats more of macroevolution’s speculation unsupported by any evidence.
 
Correct. I wasn’t making one.
Do you mean you don’t have an argument, right?

So, we agree that macroevolution violates Leibnitz’s first principle of sufficient reason (PSR).

Creation, on the other hand, does not violate the PSR. So, of the two, creation gets the philosophical nod.

Now, I will move on to the strawman diversion you’ve been trying to push for so long to avoid responding to Fr. Ripperger’s article.
You say it prevents macroevolution …
Never said or wrote that. Once again I remind you, to avoid the strawman fallacy, use the quotation facility feature.

Back to you, Fred.
 
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