Evolution and Creationism

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The problem that you might have noticed is that some on this thread deny that ‘macroeveolution’ occurs. Now I don’t know about you but if we have one species evolved from another and they can’t interbreed then it’s pretty much an example of ‘macroevolution’. Yet some (Buffalo) would argue that not being able to interbreed with the original species is an example of how evolution works in a negative sense.

So on one hand he says it doesn’t happen and on the other says that when it does happen it proves evolution works in a negative way. Such is the tortuous logic with which we have to wrestle.

It was a concession in definition I made to @rossum. He wanted to define speciation as macro. I disagreed and redefined it as essentially long term lineage splitting leaving organism less fit and on the path to extinction. If he was OK with it I said OOOOOOOKKKKKKKK.

This was your quote:

‘Macroevolution, the lineage splitting with loss, of a new species, has been observed. It is an established fact; no assumption required’.

One of your claims is that the fact that a new species cannot interbreed with the ‘parent’ species (and that is a loss). We can, with certain exceptions, accept that one of the definitions of species is precisely that. That is, it cannot interbreed with another species.

Hence a new species that cannot interbreed with the original species by your own definition (see above) is macroevolution.

So your own definition defines something you claim is part of the process (new species losing the ability to interbreed) but which you constantly claim does not exist.

I’ve said this many time but I’ll say it again. Truly bizarre…

 

[buffalo]

Can we have a statement from Buff and o-mlly how they think all this happened?

I have posted this so many times.

IDvolution - God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act.

This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events.

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds, the cattle, the swimming creatures, the flying creatures, etc… in a pristine harmonious state and superb adaptability and responsiveness to their environment for the purpose of populating the earth that became subject to the ravages of corruption by the sin of one man (deleterious mutations).

IDvolution considers the latest science and is consistent with the continuous teaching of the Church.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Can we have a statement from Buff and o-mlly how they think all this happened?

I have posted this so many times.

IDvolution - God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act.

This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events.

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds…

That says nothing more that ‘God made it happen’. I could have got that from Genesis (which is where you actually got it from).

But where are the details? When did this happen? Tie it down to a period. Did all the creatures appear at the same time? Did he create dinosaurs millions of years ago as you stated and then let them go extinct? You claim extinctions are part of the problem so what other creatures went extinct and when? Did God control the process of macroevelution (as you described earlier) or is that a natural process? Do you need to deny geology to make it work?

Instead of catcalling and heckling from the cheap seats, how about you take centre stage, grab the mike and make a stand for your position. Give us the details, not some precis of scripture.

 

[buffalo]

nstead of catcalling and heckling from the cheap seats, how about you take centre stage, grab the mike and make a stand for your position. Give us the details, not some precis of scripture.

IDvolution is a philosophical position with support from modern science.

In a nutshell, during the creative act God frontloaded life with the built in information to proliferate and created the archetypes.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

nstead of catcalling and heckling from the cheap seats, how about you take centre stage, grab the mike and make a stand for your position. Give us the details, not some precis of scripture.

IDvolution is a philosophical position with support from modern science.

In a nutshell, during the creative act God frontloaded life with the built in information to proliferate and created the archetypes.

Please don’t avoid the question. We need to know the details please. When did this happen, has anything gone extinct, were there migrations to different parts of the world or was everything made where it is now, what are the time scales, do we need to consider geology (plate tectonics, mountain formation etc), why are some creatures carnivorous and some hernivores…all this and more.

Give us the details. Or are you just going to point to scripture?

 

[Chet1]

So, as they say in the brokerage business, the macro boys chant, “Let’s put some lipstick on this pig and sell it hard.” Yes, today macroevolution is the soup de jour

I’m an avocation paleontologist, I employ he evolutionary presupositions as a working hypothesis, nothing more. But at every site I work, every symposium I attend, I run into what I call “Darwinists!” Darwinism has become a religion! The “Theory” of evolution has become dogma,! Its sad really!

 

[Freddy]

So, as they say in the brokerage business, the macro boys chant, “Let’s put some lipstick on this pig and sell it hard.” Yes, today macroevolution is the soup de jour

I’m an avocation paleontologist, I employ he evolutionary presupositions as a working hypothesis, nothing more. But at every site I work, every symposium I attend, I run into what I call “Darwinists!” Darwinism has become a religion! The “Theory” of evolution has become dogma,! Its sad really!

At least you have the time scales right:

Here, briefly, is the theory; God created the earth, evolution proceeded for billions of years.

Could you please have a word with Buff and put him straight on that?

 

[Noose001]

Please don’t avoid the question. We need to know the details please. When did this happen, has anything gone extinct, were there migrations to different parts of the world or was everything made where it is now, what are the time scales, do we need to consider geology (plate tectonics, mountain formation etc), why are some creatures carnivorous and some hernivores…all this and more.

Give us the details. Or are you just going to point to scripture?

Religion and Science are all in the same basket and fall short of the ‘understanding’ that is required. By Religion i mean a school of thought, perhaps a group of people who think that they have the understanding of what God says. Scientists are a group of people who derive their understanding from what they see.

Both fall short because the understanding of truth is inherent in everyone, we only need to use it to interpret what we see (Science) or what we read (Religion) and not the other way round.

I hold a Pantheism+Panentheism+Biocentric position. Yes God creates by becoming the created and the issue on ‘time lines’ doesn’t hold in my world view. There’s no 1 million years or 1 Billion years, time is what consciousness experiences and so is all reality. I Billion years only makes sense if there was human (mind) to experience it.

The experience of ‘passage of time’ is what is divided into past (what was experienced), present (What we are experiencing or what was anticipated by those in the past based on past experience), future (what will be experienced based on what is being experienced presently or what was experienced in the past).

 

[Freddy]

There’s no 1 million years or 1 Billion years, time is what consciousness experiences and so is all reality.

OK. Then let’s just agree on an agreed measurement system.

I guess if someone tells you they’ll see you in exactly a week’s time then you’ll be where you’re supposed to be. We tend to agree on these temporal divisions. It’s why you get birthday cards from everyone at the same time of the year. If I ask you how old you are, then I’m pretty certain you’d know.

So we all agree on what a year is and how long it lasts.

Just extrapolate from there…

 

[Noose001]

OK. Then let’s just agree on an agreed measurement system.

I guess if someone tells you they’ll see you in exactly a week’s time then you’ll be where you’re supposed to be. We tend to agree on these temporal divisions. It’s why you get birthday cards from everyone at the same time of the year. If I ask you how old you are, then I’m pretty certain you’d know.

So we all agree on what a year is and how long it lasts.

Just extrapolate from there…

You missed my edited addition, see below;

The experience of ‘passage of time’ is what is divided into past (what was experienced), present (What we are experiencing or what was anticipated by those in the past based on past experience), future (what will be experienced based on what is being experienced presently or what was experienced in the past).

Time (past, present and future) is an experience by consciousness and so is the universe or reality. This experience is God enabled and this is what we call creation.

Psalm 104: 29 When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.
30 When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

 

[DictatorCzar]

I do believe in God, the Christian God. I’m just saying, many atheists only want “Scientific” evidence. We don’t have that evidence. Like I said earlier, science means the study of the physical world. God is not physical, is he? The Universe is complex and something this complex must come from God, atheists are wired differently so they see it differently.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

OK. Then let’s just agree on an agreed measurement system.

I guess if someone tells you they’ll see you in exactly a week’s time then you’ll be where you’re supposed to be. We tend to agree on these temporal divisions. It’s why you get birthday cards from everyone at the same time of the year. If I ask you how old you are, then I’m pretty certain you’d know.

So we all agree on what a year is and how long it lasts.

Just extrapolate from there…

You missed my edited addition, see below;

The experience of ‘passage of time’ is what is divided into past (what was experienced), present (What we are experiencing or what was anticipated by those in the past based on past experience), future (what will be experienced based on what is being experienced presently or what was experienced in the past).

Time (past, present and future) is an experience by consciousness and so is the universe or reality. This experience is God enabled and this is what we call creation.

You are talking of subjective time. If you’re in a car accident, time slows down. If you are stuck at home self isolating for two weeks, it goes a lot slower than if you were on holiday having a great time (old joke: if you give up good food, drinking, smoking and sex you won’t live longer - it just feels longer).

We were talking objective time. A unit of which is the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun. So we all agree on what constitutes a billion years.

 

[rossum]

How about a dino bone dated 28K years ago? Will you change your views?

How about a dino bone dated 28K years ago? Will that change your views on a 6,000 year old earth?

If the date is correct, then YEC is obviously wrong and we have another Coelacanth or Wollemi pine. Something interesting but not a problem for evolution.

 

[Noose001]

You are talking of subjective time. If you’re in a car accident, time slows down. If you are stuck at home self isolating for two weeks, it goes a lot slower than if you were on holiday having a great time (old joke: if you give up good food, drinking, smoking and sex you won’t live longer - it just feels longer).

We were talking objective time. A unit of which is the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun. So we all agree on what constitutes a billion years.

All these is ‘true’ if you see time as being an independent phenomenon from yourself but it is not, it is a construct of the mind. It is the mind that measures and without the mind, there’s no such thing as the earth orbiting the sun which is precisely an experience of the mind.

Volume (liters, M3) weight (kgs, tons) are also a construct of the mind in the same manner. Mind measures and tries to bring sense to all things.

IOW, our mind creates the universe by creating time experience but more precisely, God created the universe in our minds and holds us accountable. Our failure to understand this truth (obey God) causes the world to pass away (decay). This is what the bible teaches.

 

[DictatorCzar]

Yeah, they could be 24 hour days are or could just be metaphorical.

 

[DictatorCzar]

YEC is following all the lineages in the Bible, but genesis 1 and 2 is weird. We don’t know if it is literal. So time could be expanded to thousands or even billions of years. Ancient cultures from 10,000 BC probably didn’t even use any word that could mean billion or million. There was really no need to. So the 7 days of creation could mean something else. Each day could represent a billion of years, we don’t know. They could be literal, we don’t know.

 

[Noose001]

We were talking objective time. A unit of which is the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun. So we all agree on what constitutes a billion years.

Science and religion arguments can be long and messy because of the different foundations from which they are built on. I’m no science guy nor can i say i know much scientifically but what i know is how to interrogate and make conclusions.

To shift this argument a little towards what i know and consider to be truth, i usually ask one question:

Q. If you came to the realization that reality is a simulation and that the universe is our collective imagination, would you still consider what you are calling evidence today to be empirical evidence? In your case, if reality is collectively a construct of our mind, would fossil record be empirical evidence for evolution?

 

[Noose001]

YEC is following all the lineages in the Bible, but genesis 1 and 2 is weird. We don’t know if it is literal. So time could be expanded to thousands or even billions of years. Ancient cultures from 10,000 BC probably didn’t even use any word that could mean billion or million. There was really no need to. So the 7 days of creation could mean something else. Each day could represent a billion of years, we don’t know. They could be literal, we don’t know.

Nope. Genesis is fixed and time as per Genesis account can not be expanded beyond what man came to experience as ‘day’. It says at the end of everyday, 'there was evening and morning and this is the first day…"

That evening and morning thing does not allow for expansion of time to years. Yet the Genesis account is not literal not in the sense of ‘time’ but in the sense that the created universe is not ‘physical’ but just an understanding (spiritual/mind)- this makes it possible for creation to be in 7 seconds let alone 24hr days.

It is man who caused the physical world to appear and we know this based on Genesis account when it says “… their eyes were opened…” when they sinned. It doesn’t mean that God created them with their eyes closed, it only means that sin caused the physical to appear- the true statement is, sin caused man to experience the universe as if it was physical when it isn’t.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You are talking of subjective time. If you’re in a car accident, time slows down. If you are stuck at home self isolating for two weeks, it goes a lot slower than if you were on holiday having a great time (old joke: if you give up good food, drinking, smoking and sex you won’t live longer - it just feels longer).

We were talking objective time. A unit of which is the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun. So we all agree on what constitutes a billion years.

All these is ‘true’ if you see time as being an independent phenomenon from yourself but it is not, it is a construct of the mind. It is the mind that measures and without the mind, there’s no such thing as the earth orbiting the sun which is precisely an experience of the mind.

But we all agree on it. Whether it happens or not is actually irrelevant. The fact that you and I will turn up at the same time at an agreed place in one year’s time proves that.

So now we have an agreed unit we can use it to compare times.

 

[Noose001]

But we all agree on it. Whether it happens or not is actually irrelevant. The fact that you and I will turn up at the same time at an agreed place in one year’s time proves that.

So now we have an agreed unit we can use it to compare times.

We have an agreed unit yes but that doesn’t mean everything else is irrelevant. I’m focused more on what is behind this agreed unit, without it, there’s no agreed unit at all.

I’m falling short of saying that our experience is what we should call time and not this agreed unit which we came up with to put our experience to perspective or to measure our experience. It our experience that is reality and the only thing that should matter, the units are irrelevant.
If i have my own world where one year is the time the earth revolves around the sun twice and two liters is my one liter and two kilometers are my one kilometer, the way of doing things in my world will change but my experience of ‘passage of time’ will remain the same.

Let me have a go at the real staff in my next post…