Evolution and Creationism

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Just how useful is this debate for you by the way? Are we going too off-topic?

If we are, please let us know.

(This is solely for @DictatorCzar to answer)
 
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rossum…there are a million other things involved in an ecosystem, the food chain works from the top down…not the bottom up.Everything had to be put place first for it to work in perfect harmony.
The original food chain was: chemicals from the vent → organisms that consume the chemicals. A chain with two links. The chemicals were already in place. The organisms arrived once abiogenesis got started.
 
I just want to publicly thank Freddy here for being extremely responsible on this forum, by reminding us that we all need to remember to reference our work (and hunting down our source when we forget to). 🙂

If you wish to know where I got these completely neutral scientific answers from (you can read it over if you want; I only used the information that didn’t mention ‘God’, ‘Creationism’, and I think I left ‘evolution’ out too)…
You forgot to add the first one: Evolutionist Criticisms of the RNA World Conjecture | Answers in Genesis

And well done to you for being impartial and not looking for information that didn’t include God or creationism. Omitting the fact that the very titles of the web sites contain such words as:

creationism
evolution criticism
genesis
evidence against evolution

Wasn’t there some clue there for you? It’s like a flat earther saying that he got his unbiased information from:

https://answers-for-flat-earthers.org/evidence-against-global-world/round-planet-criticism (don’t click it - I made it up)

As to whether the information on these sites is to be trusted, I’m very sure that some of it can. But the sites themselves cannot. And the way they use the information cannot. Maybe you’ve just come into these type of conversations recently. Maybe you haven’t heard of the Dover trial or the Wedge Document or the book Of Pandas and People. Maybe you don’t know the people you are dealing with that run these sites.

The sooner you find out the better.
 
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I didn’t use that link for the first one, I gave you the one I used.

If you want, I will only reference their references. So you don’t look at the interpretation they gave and only at the information they used. Would that not be less bias?

Are you telling me to only use irreligious sites in this (even though that in itself isn’t a neutral decision)? I don’t think there’s a single site out there that is truly religiously neutral.

Comparing this to the flat Earth is inappropriate. There is no evidence for the flat Earth that can’t be countered or explained, because we can actually observe the round Earth (and the data completely points to that one conclusion).

Evolution isn’t like that. You only have a single snapshot of Earth’s history you can be sure about, but evolution needs Earth’s entire history to be certain.

This is where we need to contrast observational science and historical science. Observational science can crush any flat Earther or geocentrist (as long as we have the technology to support it that is; Galileo’s main problem was being unable to explain a lack of stellar parallax: The Galileo Controversy | Catholic Answers).

Historical science relies on what we know now to interpret the past; which has a massive degree of uncertainty. It relies on the opinion of the scientific majority, because they should know what they’re doing. Yet the uncertainty is still there. So why are we attacked for pointing this out and providing the evidence for an alternate theory?

You think those pushing evolution are unbias, or don’t have an agenda? That the sheer number of atheistic evolutionists aren’t pushing forward their own lack of religious beliefs (which is a belief in itself) through science which pressurises theistic evolutionists to accept? Or that theistic evolutionists are desperately trying to prove that evolution can work with Christianity? You don’t run the theory of evolution, and never will, because the theistic evolutionists who truly believe and practise their religion are in the minority. Do you want me to give you a list of works by your fellow atheists (since you both believe in evolution, you must agree with everything they say just like how all Creationists are the same, right?); because they make their intentions very clear.

Just how many websites out there are truly neutral? And how many do you use to support your own interpretation on the evidence available (I don’t expect you to know everything, so it’s not like I have anything against you using such sites…As I would)?

Since when was what the majority said the truth?
 
You seem to be missing something.
Yes, that’s correct. I’m missing your argument that macroevolution is valid as a scientific hypothesis and not just imagined speculation.

If you can demonstrate that macro is a scientific hypothesis then, and only then, can you ask for an alternative scientific hypothesis.
 
Which is why I’ll give you the references they use, so you can find the raw data without their interpretation
 
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Freddy:
You seem to be missing something.
If you can demonstrate that macro is a scientific hypothesis then, and only then, can you ask for an alternative scientific hypothesis.
I do accept it as a valid scientific hypotheses. And I have spent countless posts explaining that. Anything I say in support of it you have rejected. If I repeat myself then you will still reject it. You obviously don’t think it’s valid.

Fair enough. So what’s your alternative proposal?
 
Which is why I’ll give you the references they use, so you can find the raw data without their interpretation
This isn’t cut ‘n’ paste central, Raul. Use your own arguments if you could. Interpret the data yourself. I won’t be doing that for you.

Now maybe you could answer me a question. All the info you’ve been pasting and these sites you have been visiting, would you agree that it’s all an attempt to prove that a biblical interpretation of the age of the planet is 6,000 years old.
 
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Very well.

Whilst I won’t deny the religious influence of the Bible (just as I don’t deny Darwin’s hatred of God due to the death of his daughter influencing his work), not everything conforms to the theories currently accepted by the masses. There are just too many things that can’t (or in some cases, won’t) be explained by it. Finding such anomalies in such a widely-accepted theory makes me question the whole thing. Such anomalies are rarely reported, yet the media always seems to take evolution too seriously.

I believe there was a story a while back that appeared have found the origin of life in ponds like Darwin suggested, then a week later another one talked about how much of a flop that theory was and quickly promoted hydrothermal vents. When I did read those stories, it turned out to be no confirmed proof, just theories that had surfaced. So I clearly can’t trust the scientific media who seems to prematurely celebrate everything.

At the time of becoming a YEC, I was actually in a lapsed state (calling me a theistic evolutionist is too far, I had decided God didn’t exist as long as I didn’t think about Him); deciding to pick and choose my beliefs through whatever seemed convenient for my subjects. Stumbling upon the idea that dinosaurs could be carbon dated or had soft tissue (I’ve always been a fan of dinosaurs, so I was very interested) led me to investigate YEC.

When that eventually brought me back to Christianity, I was confused; because although I was a baptised Catholic, there were so many rumours and conspiracies about the Catholic Church. When I tried to find the ‘Original Church’ instead, I was still brought back to the Catholic Church, but I actually understood my Faith and how to defend it (thanks to this site).

It took four months to bring me back to Christianity, and another two to bring me back to Catholicism. So if I had to thank something for bringing me back, it wasn’t my religion, it was actually dinosaurs 🦕 🦖.

Believe me, I was certainly questionable about the religious side of it in the beginning. But in the words of William Bragg: “From religion comes a man’s purpose; from science, his power to achieve it. Sometimes people ask if religion and science are not opposed to one another. They are: in the sense that the thumb and fingers of my hands are opposed to one another. It is an opposition by means of which anything can be grasped.”

If the ‘Young Earth’ is what the evidence suggests, then it is young. And if I find that the most supported book in history through sheer archaeological and historical evidence is proven to be right about the age of the Earth too (the evidence suggests 6000-7000 years old, the Protestant Bible which already has flawed theology accepted this 6000 year mistake too; whereas our oldest Biblical text gives an age of around 6650); then my index finger has just found my thumb.
 
Vitalism was shown to be wrong back in the nineteenth century. The chemistry of life is just that: chemistry.
Can you define life and then show us HOW a self replicating RNA becomes alive?

And death being a very important item in the definition of life, can you tell us what the death of self replicating RNA entails?
 
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I know that a lot of Creationists only support what supports their religion. But religion had no influence on me when I started this.

There is a crucial difference between me and a group like CMI, which means I can’t accept everything they say, hence I have to do more research before I do.

(Sorry, apparently my last comment wasn’t a direct reply to you; I don’t know why)
 
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Whilst I won’t deny the religious influence of the Bible…
Now you must realise how nonsensical that sounds. Your position has not been influenced by the bible. It has been based on your fundamentalist interpretation of certain texts. If Genesis had not been included in the bible then nobody would be trying to prove the earth is 6,000 years old. They are only doing so because they read the text literally. no other reason. So let’s be honest about that.
(just as I don’t deny Darwin’s hatred of God due to the death of his daughter influencing his work),
A slur on the man and his work. I wonder from which creationist site you obtained that disgraceful remark. Notwithstanding that the vast majority of his work was done many years before the death of his daughter. His trip on the Beagle was a full ten years before she was even born and he summarised his ideas while she was still a baby (she died at ten). If you want to make comments like that, no doubt obtained from some web site, then I strongly recommend you check the veracity of the claims before you post them.
not everything conforms to the theories currently accepted by the masses.
The masses? Another derogatory remark. Your bias is showing.
I know that a lot of Creationists only support what supports their religion. But religion had no influence on me when I started this.
Of course not.
Whilst I won’t deny the religious influence of the Bible…
You have a very poor memory. You have contradicted yourself in consecutive posts.

And of course, you hit upon the idea of a 6,000 year old earth entirely by yourself. It’s just an amazing coincidence that fundamentalist Christians happen upon the same age by biblical means. Astonishing…
 
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I think it’s valid. See the post an hour ago. You do not. So your alternative proposal would be…?
I saw it. So what?

It’s apparent that you cannot defend your faith statement that macro is a valid scientific hypothesis. Absent that defense, no alternative scientific hypothesis is required to invalidate that which was never valid in the first place.
 
Can you define life and then show us HOW a self replicating RNA becomes alive?
Life is a self-replicating metabolism. Self-replicating RNA is half way there, lacking a metabolism.
And death being a very important item in the definition of life, can you tell us what the death of self replicating RNA entails?
Death is a property of the metabolism, when the metabolism decays enough that the remaining energy flows are unable to counteract the effects of entropy. Hence pure RNA is not susceptible to death since it does not have any energy flows.

Self-replicating RNA is a step on the path to life, but is not yet alive.
 
Hence pure RNA is not susceptible to death since it does not have any energy flows.
If it can not die it is not living and life is not about self replication.
Self-replicating RNA is a step on the path to life, but is not yet alive.
There are no steps to life but life itself is a step towards death. So how is a dead RNA strand, undergoing some physico-chemical change a step towards life? Can you please demonstrate this?
 
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