Evolution and Creationism

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It’s apparent that you cannot defend your faith statement that macro is a valid scientific hypothesis.
  1. Macroevolution is not a “faith statement”. I find it interesting to say the least that you are trying to denigrate science by likening it to religion: “faith statement”. In effect you are saying that you find science superior to religion, and are criticising a part of science that you do not like by likening it to the lesser concept of a religion. You are not alone in this, a lot of creationists use the same trope: “Darwinism is a religion”, not realising that they are, in effect, criticising religion.
  2. We have observed examples of macroevolution from 1905 to the present day. See Lyko (2017) The marbled crayfish (Decapoda: Cambaridae) represents an independent new species for a recent example.
 
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Freddy:
I think it’s valid. See the post an hour ago. You do not. So your alternative proposal would be…?
I saw it. So what?

It’s apparent that you cannot defend your faith statement that macro is a valid scientific hypothesis. Absent that defense, no alternative scientific hypothesis is required to invalidate that which was never valid in the first place.
This becoming illogical from your position. Let’s make it clear for you, step by step so it can be followed easily.
  1. You think my proposal is invalid. Happy with that? Good.
  2. To invalidate it all you need to is give your reasons why you think it’s wrong. Sound reasonable? Great.
  3. Have you done this? Yes, you have. Agreed? Good.
Now where are we? Well we have one proposal on the table that you think is invalid and you’ve given your reasons for that conclusion. I still think it’s valid, but I haven’t heard your alternative yet. So we move to the next point.
  1. If my proposal as to how the current biosphere came about is something you consider to be invalid, then there must be some other process. Followed by…
  2. What do you think it is?
 
So how is a dead RNA strand, undergoing some physico-chemical change a step towards life? Can you please demonstrate this?
Life reproduces itself. Self-replicating RNA also reproduces itself, hence it has one of the properties of life. A great many other chemicals do not have that property, so self-replicating RNA is one step ahead of those other chemicals. For example, there is no such thing as a self-replicating strand of DNA. DNA cannot self-replicate on its own; RNA can.
 
I find it interesting to say the least that you are trying to denigrate science by likening it to religion: “faith statement”.
Straw man again. Cite my post in which I refer to “religion”. Cite my post where I “denigrate science”. Your faith in macro is not religious faith, it’s natural faith.
 
Just in case you forgot: the term Catholic fundamentalism is sometimes used to describe conservative Catholicism, but most scholars reject this term because Christian fundamentalism traditionally involved strict conformity to the “inerrant text” of the Bible.

So you think it’s ok to refer to us Conservative Catholics as Fundamentalists, but don’t want me to use the word ‘masses’? Then what do you want me to call the majority of people? ‘Those-who-never-questioned-the-theory-they-were-told-or-looked-for-alternatives’? If people were taught the actual reasons for their beliefs, things would be considerably different. A child who’s given evidence why the Earth is round (because they probably won’t research it at home) will know how to counter a flat Earther and that movement would have died. A Catholic who understands even basic Catholic theology will not be swayed by all the claims against the Church. So if evolution is true, then it’s being taught in such a way that opposition has a very easy time growing against it.

Why are you doubting the books of the Bible? There’s no point in coming up with ‘what ifs’ concerning the canon, because they are empty accusations. We have Genesis, which has been proven to be written in the historical narrative of the time, meaning it was written with historical intent. What else should we remove because you and modern ‘science’ disagree with? Was the canon not confirmed twice?

Are you forgetting there are four means of interpreting the Bible? I just don’t limit myself to three means and read what’s written as history as history, what’s written as literature as literature.

Darwin’s daughter died on April 23, 1851, he published his work on 24 November 1859. You’re telling me he didn’t go through his book once in almost eight years? No final checks? No emotional wreck of a father as he realised that by his own conclusions, his own daughter was too weak to survive? We know he wrote in it after she died, since he mentions her in the end.

It’s a bit hard to take your criticism of me being led by my religious beliefs seriously, considering you’re letting yours lead you (except you think yours superior to mine because yours is supported by the majority of people) to the point of insults and personal attacks. Is this not a forum to discuss? Or have I walked onto a flyting site? You’re not a robot, so please don’t act like you are perfectly neutral in this.

It’s amazing how you know more about what investigative path I took over the course of four months than I do. Were you over my shoulder that whole time? Then you would’ve seen me cross-checking this new ‘YEC’ evidence with ‘neutral’ evidence and information which had no religious influence over them. I was sceptical about Earth being 6000 years old, because the evidence I found said it was older. It was only after further research that I found that estimate to be wrong (it definitely wasn’t related to the ‘fundamentalists’, because this completely undermined their ‘fundamentalism’ and supported Catholicism). If you look at the YEC dates, you’ll see they are usually at least 6000 years, which supports us more than it does them.
 
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Freddy:
You think my proposal is invalid …
What proposal? You’ve proposed nothing, only your belief.
Now this is getting silly. You said what I was proposing in your last post.
It’s apparent that you cannot defend your faith statement that macro is a valid scientific hypothesis
Whether you want to call it a belief or whether you consider that I hold it on faith, it is still nevertheless a proposal. You think it’s invalid. And you have given reasons for thinking that. Now we’re back to 4 - you must think there’s another more valid proposal… and then 5. Which was:

What do you think it is?
 
We have observed examples of macroevolution from 1905 to the present day. See Lyko (2017)
As pointed out to you many times before, the marbled crayfish so-called “speciation” event was not observed and is pure speculation.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-01624-y
Lyko speculates …

The species might even have emerged in the wild. “The fact that natural marbled-crayfish populations have not been found in the wild does not mean that they do not exist,” he says.
However, the marbled crayfish could also have originated somewhere in the native range of P. fallax by spontaneous autotriploidy. An individual of this mutant population could unintentionally have been brought to Germany, where parthenogenesis was detected.
New to science and new to nature do not mean the same.
 
Just in case you forgot: the term Catholic fundamentalism is sometimes used to describe conservative Catholicism, but most scholars reject this term because Christian fundamentalism traditionally involved strict conformity to the “inerrant text” of the Bible.
Well you adhere to a strict fundamentalist interpretation of genesis so you’ll be classed as a fundamentalist.
So you think it’s ok to refer to us Conservative Catholics as Fundamentalists, but don’t want me to use the word ‘masses’? Then what do you want me to call the majority of people?
‘The majority of people’.
 
Now this is getting silly. You said what I was proposing in your last post.
Yes, your reticence to defend your faith is getting tedious. Nope, I could not re-post what you have never posted.
Whether you want to call it a belief or whether you consider that I hold it on faith, it is still nevertheless a proposal.
Are you now agreeing that it is by faith that you believe in macro?
 
It’s a good thing that you don’t own all dictionaries. I’ll be a fundamentalist in your mind only (though I’m honoured you think of me, thank you).

Very well. I’ll use TMOP if I run out of room.
 
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Life reproduces itself. Self-replicating RNA also reproduces itself, hence it has one of the properties of life. A great many other chemicals do not have that property, so self-replicating RNA is one step ahead of those other chemicals. For example, there is no such thing as a self-replicating strand of DNA. DNA cannot self-replicate on its own; RNA can.
  1. Self replication RNA only happens in controlled lab experiment, can not happen in a natural setting.
  2. Both DNA and RNA are made of nucleobases but the double helix structure of a DNA makes it difficult to the nucleobases to combine and recombine in replication because unlike RNA, a DNA nucleobase combine with other nucleobases at three points - from both ends and also opposite strand which makes it hard for the process to happen (+ many other difficulties).
  3. RNA being a single stand has a nucleobase exposed on all sides and makes it very easy to combine and recombine with other bases. But base combination is nothing more than a phosphate- Oxygen bond. There’s no life in such a bond just like there’s no life in O-H bond.
  4. We have self replicating proteins, why isn’t there a protein world? Self replication outside a living cell means nothing.
Maybe there’s life in it but can you demonstrate how such bond formations and bond breakages mean it is step to life?
 
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Are you now agreeing that it is by faith that you believe in macro?
I don’t but you do. Which is irrelevant anyway. You just spent a long post denying macroevolution so you do understand that you’re up to point 3 already whether these positions are held on faith or not. Otherwise why spend time saying it’s wrong? You could have said ‘It’s a faith position so not worth responding to!’ But you do respond to them.

So 3 is covered. Then there’s 4 where we agree there must be another proposal if mine is wrong. and then 5:

So what is your proposal?
 
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Freddy:
I don’t but you do.
If not by faith then demonstrate with facts and reasons that macro is a scientific hypothesis. Is it that hard to do?
If you haven’t been posting umpteen refutations of the evolutionary process (as you just did a couple of posts above) then what do you think you have been doing all this time? If you think all the proposals being presented are invalid then present your own.

What’s your alternative?
 
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Straw man again. Cite my post in which I refer to “religion”. Cite my post where I “denigrate science”. Your faith in macro is not religious faith, it’s natural faith.
Not faith at all. I have evidence, which I referenced and which you ignored. Science works on evidence, and there is evidence for macroevolution. If you don’t accept macroevolution then show me a Precambrian rabbit fossil, since without macroevolution rabbits, which exist today, will have been around for as long as life has existed.
 
We have Genesis, which has been proven to be written in the historical narrative of the time, meaning it was written with historical intent.
Homer was written “with historical intent” to tell the story of the Greek siege of Troy. Does that mean that a literal interpretation of Homer, gods and all, is justified?

The literal interpretation of Genesis is proven wrong. According to Genesis birds, day 5, came before land animals, day 6. The evidence shows that Genesis is wrong on this point. Genesis is reliable theology but it is not reliable science. Unless you can show me a fossil bird roughly contemporary with an early land animal such as Tiktaalik then Genesis is not a science textbook.
 
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