Evolution and Creationism

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Indeed it was. I showed that humans evolved by giving examples of humans evolving, such as lactase persistence. That is just one of many examples of humans evolving …
Do you mean adapting? That living creatures adapt was known long before Darwin. No one contests adaptation, aka, microevoluiton. Darwin’s book is, “The Origin of Species”; not the “Confirmation of the Adaptation of Species”. The latter would not have sold many copies.

What Ripperger and I clearly challenge is macroevolution. It has been necessary in this thread to discriminate the two due to the sleight of hand attempt that proponents of macro use when asked for evidence of macro and present, as you just have again, microevolution.
Then you would do well to avoid discussion of the subject.
It is not I that is avoiding discussion. Enlighten me. Did Stanford article misrepresent Buddhist philosophy? If not, please explain how one who accepts Buddhist philosophy can also be a scientist, especially one that advocates macroevolution?

You dismiss western philosophy and its refutation of macroevolution but you do not replace its principles and logic with an alternative. Please explain how Buddhist philosophy of science supports or at least is in congruence with your scientific claims? Stanford doesn’t see how.
 
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Freddy:
Yeah. It’s a detailed argument for creationism …
Still haven’t read the article, I see.

I’ll summarize your 321 word post that explains why Ripperger go it wrong in just 3, “I got nothin’”.

And its rational corollary, “I’m outa here”. So long.
Hahaha, what perfect display of the modern conservative intelligentsia 🤣🤣🤣

Denialism, reductionism and then triumphalism…

YEC is made of glass. Evidence for evolution shatters it. But evidence of anything older than 10000 years also shatters it.

It’s a dead idea. Those that still support it look at it’s shattered ruin and only see the pristine idea.
There’s nothing one can do to argue against that.
 
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YEC Handbook
Rule 1.1 Deny, deny, deny.
Rule 1.2 When scientific methods seem to work in our favor (on rarest occasion), they’re great. When they don’t, they’re tripe.

A 10k year old earth is nonsense. What explains the craters on the moon? The existence of people in the Americas pre-Columbus (10k years ago Beringia was gone)? Fossils in rocks? Human megaliths that date 12000 years ago? Starlight from things more than 10k lightyears from us?

Those, and literally millions of other things!

You’ve no answer other than the idea that the creator just poofed those into existence as well.
 
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What Ripperger and I clearly challenge is macroevolution. It has been necessary in this thread to discriminate the two due to the sleight of hand attempt that proponents of macro use when asked for evidence of macro and present, as you just have again, microevolution.
Are either of you qualified to have any form of educated opinion in the matter? I will of course not contest that everybody are entiteld to their own opinions about practically anything. But at what point are their opinions significant for others? I would argue that their opinions carries weight proportional to the level of studies they have conducted in the field. I don’t see studies in any field of science remotely related to biogic evolution on Chad’s CV. And philosophy is hardly the field that falsifies any subcomponents of the evolutionary engine.
 
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Are either of you qualified to have any form of educated opinion in the matter? I will of course not contest that everybody are entiteld to their own opinions about practically anything. But at what point are their opinions significant for others? I would argue that their opinions carries weight proportional to the level of studies they have conducted in the field. I don’t see studies in any field of science remotely related to biogic evolution on Chad’s CV. And philosophy is hardly the field that falsifies any subcomponents of the evolutionary engine.
Of course, your comment is patently a fallacious appeal to authority, a left-handed approach to dismiss the argument rather than address it. Nevertheless, it fails as Fr. Ripperger is eminently qualified to offer his expert criticism on the philosophical aspects of marcroevolution’s claims in the Philosophy Forum.

Your observation may have merit if the topic were on an experimental science. Macroevolution is not. The historical sciences are always short on evidence and long on rationales. Macroevolution arguably has no evidence and wildly undisciplined speculations. Examining the credulity of those rationales is quite appropriate.
 
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Nevertheless, it fails as Fr. Ripperger is eminently qualified to offer his expert criticism on the philosophical aspects of marcroevolution’s claims in the Philosophy Forum.
If you’d like to forward some of his arguments, do so. It’s silly to say “Hey, this book - read it and then you’ll see!”

I’m not going to go on Amazon, buy his book, read it and then come back here to discuss why he’s wrong.

It’s not fair. It’s not our job to make your argument for you.

That’s your job. Either do it or concede you can’t.
 
Do you mean adapting ?
No, I mean evolving, as with the standard definition of evolution. Your attempt the use a different word is a very obvious confession that you are losing the argument. Evolution has a standard scientific definition and in accordance with that definition humans evolve: our population DNA changes over time.
It is not I that is avoiding discussion.
Buddhist philosophy is off topic in this thread, which is about Evolution and Creationism. I suggest that you read “The Questions of King Milinda” as a gentle introduction to the subject. Nagarjuna is definitely not the easiest place to start.
 
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It’s not fair. It’s not our job to make your argument for you.
I’ve posted the arguments many times in many threads. No takers so far. Perhaps you have a response.
(From 2018) Why you should think that the First-Cause has to be an Intelligent Cause
As I posted, evolutionists are people of faith.

It’s a challenge to argue with one who buys bales of straw by the truckload. Thus my ellipsis as you continue to misstate my position.

Here’s the incoherence in your position.

Any and all truth claims of science are based on accepting self-evident metaphysical truth that the the universe is intelligible. I presume you do accept the principle.

The intelligibility of the universe depends on the existence of unchanging laws that govern the universe discoverable by man. Discovering the laws allows the reliable prediction that “if x then y” and, conversely, "if not x then not y.’ The latter, just as important as the former is the principle of sufficient reason. Nothing happens without sufficient reason.

For instance, sometime today, I will go out to the boxy thing in my garage which contains over 20 gallons of highly flammable liquid, strap myself into it and ignite it causing that liquid to begin to combust. I rely on the laws of cause and effect to 1) insure the boxy thing does not self-ignite while I sleep and, 2) insure that I am not immolated when I ignite it.

To assert that life popped out of non-life and human life from non-human life must necessarily deny selectively the PSR.

You deny free will in human beings asserting that there is no freedom of choice because sufficient reasons exist that always determine that choice; that all the active forces (causes) at the time of decision preclude any free choice (effect). So, I ask you again: What principles guide you is selective asserting PSR here (free choice) but not there (evolution of human life)?
Atheist’s objection to the PSR. “PSR is not universal.”
If PSR is not universal then under what principles does one invoke or not invoke PSR as controlling? Atheist answer: “Dunno. Maybe brute facts.” 😵

Should one’s worldview be coherent? (Rational) atheist: Absolutely, Yes!

Does man have free will? Rational atheist: Absolutely not. The forces that work upon us determine our every action. PSR, you know, is universal. 😱
If you replied, I missed it. So, if PSR is not universal then under what principles does one invoke or not invoke PSR?
 
No, I mean evolving, as with the standard definition of evolution. Your attempt the use a different word is a very obvious confession that you are losing the argument. Evolution has a standard scientific definition and in accordance with that definition humans evolve: our population DNA changes over time.
Nice try, but no dice. Does evolution hold that one species causes another, in particular that a common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans evolved into the body of the first human being?
 
I’ve posted the arguments many times in many threads. No takers so far. Perhaps you have a response.
Oh, that’s easy - it was critiqued thoroughly in another thread.

The label of things as “necessary” and “contingent” is purely arbitrary. Some philosophers argue that only the beginning of the universe was necessary and everything else was contingent. Some argue additional things as necessary. There’s no hard and fast rule.

In short - we don’t know what’s necessary and what’s not.

We can run trials and repeat experiments and hopefully they’ll come out the same, but experimental conditions are impossible to replicate with perfect exactness. The air temperature might be different. There might be on additional crystal of salt you’re adding than before. The earth might be in a slightly different position. There are a near-infinite number of things.

Another issue is that the universe appears to be at least somewhat deterministic - ergo everything that happens may be necessary. As such, you’ve no discernible ability to split the hair into identifiable, discreet “necessary” and “contingent” components.

In toto, the lance that forever wounds PSR is that we know we don’t know everything. So relying on it exclusively is akin to knowingly trying to build a house of cards out of an incomplete deck.
The beginning might have been a god. Or it might have been an infinite regress (like god). Or it might have been another guy named Zuul in another previous universe that created this one as a school assignment where he and his classmates all created universes for Mrs. Kerbaple in their science class and our entire universe has spent 13 billion earth-years in their land-fill after it was graded.

Point is, we don’t know. Thus the PSR hits a wall in it’s ability to be definitive.


What we do know is that there are rocks that contain skeletons. These skeletons appear in certain rocks and do not appear in others. For example, the most recent stegosaur specimen is more than twice as old as the oldest tyrannosaur specimen. Ergo, we can conclude that based on current evidence, tyrannosaurs lived closer to our time than to the time of the stegosaurs. If true, they never saw each other.

And for people - well - we just can’t find any specimens older than 200k years. Geologically, we’re so new that we still have the cellophane on us, so to speak.

The above are based on observations. Measurements.

Yours are based on mere philosophical speculations. Your ideas only persist because, like Bigfoot and the Tooth-fairy, they can’t be falsified.

Simply being unfalsifiable is not a convincing argument. Again, the Chupacabra is also unfalsifiable. You believe in that, too?
 
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Of course, your comment is patently a fallacious appeal to authority, a left-handed approach to dismiss the argument rather than address it. Nevertheless, it fails as Fr. Ripperger is eminently qualified to offer his expert criticism on the philosophical aspects of marcroevolution’s claims in the Philosophy Forum.
But philosophy is hardly the field from which you study physics within the universe. And most certainly not using prinicples such as:
“principle of hierarchy of being”, “excluded middle”, “non-contradiction”, “sufficient reason”, “cause is greater than the effect”, “proportionate causality,” “resemblance”, and “operation”. You see quantum objects does not obey any philosophical principles. You may want them to, but they don’t.

And I think you look at the opinions of authorities (experts) in each field too. If you are honest. And you should, since they have spent more time studying the field than you have, using well tested methodologies.

Using philosophy to study evolution… 😂 Well let’s just say that it is far from being a useful tool to study to study any physical process, anywhere.
 
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That explains the craters on the moon?
I have to jump in here on this one. Get a high power set of binoculars and see impacts today. Don’t use this one…

Date the fossils not the rocks and a different picture emerges.

Question? - Can the Creator create a mature universe?
 
Allow me to extract the only instructive portions in this rambling post:
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Hume:
In short - we don’t know what’s necessary and what’s not. …

Point is, we don’t know. …
Allow me to repeat your biggest problem.
The above are based on observations. Measurements.

Yours are based on mere philosophical speculations. Your ideas only persist because, like Bigfoot and the Tooth-fairy, they can’t be falsified.
 
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Hume:
That explains the craters on the moon?
I have to jump in here on this one. Get a high power set of binoculars and see impacts today. Don’t use this one…

Date the fossils not the rocks and a different picture emerges.

Question? - Can the Creator create a mature universe?
If he was a trickster, sure.

A young creation should stipulate that every time we go out to gaze at the night sky, we see new dots lighting up as their light finally reaches us.

So many objects in the universe it would be a nightly show. I should be able to go out and look at black patches and watch things appear.
 
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Hume:
Except, you know, literally the entire fossil record.
The fossil record shows abrupt appearance, stasis and limited variation. It does nothing for macro.
We see the evolution of tyrannosaurs in their fossils. Literally.

As for whales, we can watch their evolution from land-dwelling mammals step-by-step. They still have some evidence of this today with their little vestigial hips they’ve yet to fully shed.
 
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