Evolution and fake fossils

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Hi Paul,

You are exactly right about atheism. I am doing whatever I can to reach people about the Gospel, which is why I quote scripture.

This forum is not linear. It does not consist of a place where you or I, as Christians, can talk to people face to face. I was in such a place. I’ve done street witnessing, and believe me, the situation here is entirely different.

There is a reason this place is called Catholic Answers. You should understand there are several types of people here, some easily recognizable by their fruit. A list:

The savage wolf: A provacateur whose only purpose is to plant seeds of doubt and confusion in the Christian. This person requires an answer. He or she may or may not claim to be Catholic.

The honestly confused: Sometimes also inarticulate, it is not always possible to tell.

Strong Christians who may have encountered a new problem in their lives they do not know how to deal with.

It would be nice if this place were divided between Christians and non-Christians but it is not.

Finally, I ask you to consider this. There are strong atheists here. They are just as committed to their belief system as we are to ours. They will boldy tell our Christian brothers and sisters that what we believe is false, harmful and irrational. And even when the truth is presented to them, they continue on their mission, repeating falsehoods endlessly. How would you handle them, Paul? Some claim to be former Christians who have abandoned their faith. How would you handle them?

On another forum I moderate, it is filled with people who make no secret of their hatred for Christianity, the Bible and the Church. My attempts to speak to them has resulted in nothing but negative responses.

You should also be aware that there is a unified, 24 hour, seven day a week media voice out there that promotes the devil and all his works. That promotes anti-God and anti-Catholic commentary. And it is increasing.

You understand me. Thank you. But there are some here who worship the mind of man only. And if you’ve ever witnessed to people personally, you know that a hardness of heart may not change for a long time. This is not the real world in the sense that I have no idea who I’m really talking to.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Hi Paul,

You are exactly right about atheism. I am doing whatever I can to reach people about the Gospel, which is why I quote scripture.

This forum is not linear. It does not consist of a place where you or I, as Christians, can talk to people face to face. I was in such a place. I’ve done street witnessing, and believe me, the situation here is entirely different.

There is a reason this place is called Catholic Answers. You should understand there are several types of people here, some easily recognizable by their fruit. A list:

The savage wolf: A provacateur whose only purpose is to plant seeds of doubt and confusion in the Christian. This person requires an answer. He or she may or may not claim to be Catholic.

The honestly confused: Sometimes also inarticulate, it is not always possible to tell.

Strong Christians who may have encountered a new problem in their lives they do not know how to deal with.

It would be nice if this place were divided between Christians and non-Christians but it is not.

Finally, I ask you to consider this. There are strong atheists here. They are just as committed to their belief system as we are to ours. They will boldy tell our Christian brothers and sisters that what we believe is false, harmful and irrational. And even when the truth is presented to them, they continue on their mission, repeating falsehoods endlessly. How would you handle them, Paul? Some claim to be former Christians who have abandoned their faith. How would you handle them?

On another forum I moderate, it is filled with people who make no secret of their hatred for Christianity, the Bible and the Church. My attempts to speak to them has resulted in nothing but negative responses.

You should also be aware that there is a unified, 24 hour, seven day a week media voice out there that promotes the devil and all his works. That promotes anti-God and anti-Catholic commentary. And it is increasing.

You understand me. Thank you. But there are some here who worship the mind of man only. And if you’ve ever witnessed to people personally, you know that a hardness of heart may not change for a long time. This is not the real world in the sense that I have no idea who I’m really talking to.

Hope this helps,
Ed
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Hello Ed,

threads like these scare me a little, as it seems you are out to claim that scientists have evil designs on the world. What could someone say to assure you that this is not the case?

I suppose I am some sort of agnostic or atheist. I have no idea how that gets me to “worshipping the mind of man.”

I do nothing of the sort. I accept science as a valid instrument to explore nature. It is a communal effort to describe nature as well as we can, and as far as I can tell it holds a guarded opinion of the “mind of man,” as several posts here have already noted. Clearly, the scientific community is willing to admit error. That does not seem very worshipful to me.

Science accepts the theory of evolution today based on a very large amount of evidence. It will never, and can never, be “proven.” Also note that there are scientists who have theories that differ with the generally accepted theory of evolution. Their colleagues may disagree with their views, but they cheer them on nonetheless, if nothing else by their willingness to discuss their views with them.

Relax, Ed. No scientist is out to snatch your Bible away from you, Those who disagree with your views all recognize your right to believe, even those who argue against you. Your faith is strong enough to handle that, no?

Respectfully,

Tor
 
edwest2 said:
Hi Paul,

You are exactly right about atheism. I am doing whatever I can to reach people about the Gospel, which is why I quote scripture.

This forum is not linear. It does not consist of a place where you or I, as Christians, can talk to people face to face. I was in such a place. I’ve done street witnessing, and believe me, the situation here is entirely different.

There is a reason this place is called Catholic Answers. You should understand there are several types of people here, some easily recognizable by their fruit. A list:

The savage wolf: A provacateur whose only purpose is to plant seeds of doubt and confusion in the Christian. This person requires an answer. He or she may or may not claim to be Catholic.

The honestly confused: Sometimes also inarticulate, it is not always possible to tell.

Strong Christians who may have encountered a new problem in their lives they do not know how to deal with.

It would be nice if this place were divided between Christians and non-Christians but it is not.
Click to expand...
So true. Your summary of the types on this forum is spot on.
Finally, I ask you to consider this. There are strong atheists here. They are just as committed to their belief system as we are to ours. They will boldy tell our Christian brothers and sisters that what we believe is false, harmful and irrational. And even when the truth is presented to them, they continue on their mission, repeating falsehoods endlessly. How would you handle them, Paul? Some claim to be former Christians who have abandoned their faith. How would you handle them?
Click to expand...
Most people who call themselves atheists or agnostics were raised with some semblance of Christian faith. Unfortunately, many were raised by cruel, dysfunctional or uncaring parents, and so associate Christianity with their bad parents and dysfunctional upbringing. They see God the Father through the lens of their cruel or absentee dad or their abused and miserable mother. It takes a lot of rehabilitation to bring them to Jesus.

I like to ask these people “what, specifically, do you object to in Christianity?” They will usually give you their top one or two things that they think Christianity teaches. Then I give them an authoritative statement (from the bible and the catechism) of what Christianity really teaches. It is important to show them that I am using an authoritative source, not my own opinion. They are usually very surprised that they got it so wrong. I have to explain to them that many people who identify as Christian (like their parents or whoever), sadly, do not understand or live the faith. I point out that we can’t judge a medicine by those who refuse to take it.

It is most important to answer their objections in meekness and gentleness (1 Peter 3:15). These folks are hurting, and they need our kindness. This alone will do a world of good, because atheist/agnostics often see Christians as severe and judgmental (as too many are).

Then they put forth their next objection…etc, etc, etc. After many iterations of this process they finally become humble, understanding that they never really knew what Christianity teaches and practices. Then they are ready to learn to love Jesus and His Church.
On another forum I moderate, it is filled with people who make no secret of their hatred for Christianity, the Bible and the Church. My attempts to speak to them has resulted in nothing but negative responses.
Click to expand...
You should also be aware that there is a unified, 24 hour, seven day a week media voice out there that promotes the devil and all his works. That promotes anti-God and anti-Catholic commentary. And it is increasing.
Click to expand...
You understand me. Thank you. But there are some here who worship the mind of man only. And if you’ve ever witnessed to people personally, you know that a hardness of heart may not change for a long time. This is not the real world in the sense that I have no idea who I’m really talking to.
Click to expand...
Hope this helps,
Ed
Click to expand...
It does, thanks. If we use the method I outlined above, along with a boatload of patience, I think we can reach the ones that are reachable. Sadly, some are not reachable by their own choice. For those we can only pray. Prayer can do amazing things.

God love you, brother.
Paul
 
SFTor said:
Hello Ed,

threads like these scare me a little, as it seems you are out to claim that scientists have evil designs on the world. What could someone say to assure you that this is not the case?

I suppose I am some sort of agnostic or atheist. I have no idea how that gets me to “worshipping the mind of man.”

I do nothing of the sort. I accept science as a valid instrument to explore nature. It is a communal effort to describe nature as well as we can, and as far as I can tell it holds a guarded opinion of the “mind of man,” as several posts here have already noted. Clearly, the scientific community is willing to admit error. That does not seem very worshipful to me.

Science accepts the theory of evolution today based on a very large amount of evidence. It will never, and can never, be “proven.” Also note that there are scientists who have theories that differ with the generally accepted theory of evolution. Their colleagues may disagree with their views, but they cheer them on nonetheless, if nothing else by their willingness to discuss their views with them.

Relax, Ed. No scientist is out to snatch your Bible away from you, Those who disagree with your views all recognize your right to believe, even those who argue against you. Your faith is strong enough to handle that, no?

Respectfully,

Tor
Click to expand...
Hello Tor,

I am a historian of the history of technology. Scientists, themselves, usually do not have evil designs on the world and do not want to take away my Bible, but according to a study by Nature magazine, most scientists disbelieve in God. This is a spiritual matter that leaves them vulnerable to others who may use their talents for bad ends.

This was already evident in 1953 when President Eisenhower addressed the American Society of Newspaper Editors:

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies - in a final sense - a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children… This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the threatening cloud of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.”
excerpt from Storm Warning by Billy Graham.

The Bible tells us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but if no such appropriate understanding of our Lord exists, what is possible? I do pray for them in hope.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Hi Paul,

You are exactly right about atheism. I am doing whatever I can to reach people about the Gospel, which is why I quote scripture.

This forum is not linear. It does not consist of a place where you or I, as Christians, can talk to people face to face. I was in such a place. I’ve done street witnessing, and believe me, the situation here is entirely different.

There is a reason this place is called Catholic Answers. You should understand there are several types of people here, some easily recognizable by their fruit. A list:

The savage wolf: A provacateur whose only purpose is to plant seeds of doubt and confusion in the Christian. This person requires an answer. He or she may or may not claim to be Catholic.

The honestly confused: Sometimes also inarticulate, it is not always possible to tell.

Strong Christians who may have encountered a new problem in their lives they do not know how to deal with.

It would be nice if this place were divided between Christians and non-Christians but it is not.

Finally, I ask you to consider this. There are strong atheists here. They are just as committed to their belief system as we are to ours. They will boldy tell our Christian brothers and sisters that what we believe is false, harmful and irrational. And even when the truth is presented to them, they continue on their mission, repeating falsehoods endlessly. How would you handle them, Paul? Some claim to be former Christians who have abandoned their faith. How would you handle them?

On another forum I moderate, it is filled with people who make no secret of their hatred for Christianity, the Bible and the Church. My attempts to speak to them has resulted in nothing but negative responses.

You should also be aware that there is a unified, 24 hour, seven day a week media voice out there that promotes the devil and all his works. That promotes anti-God and anti-Catholic commentary. And it is increasing.

You understand me. Thank you. But there are some here who worship the mind of man only. And if you’ve ever witnessed to people personally, you know that a hardness of heart may not change for a long time. This is not the real world in the sense that I have no idea who I’m really talking to.

Hope this helps,
Ed
Click to expand...
Ed,
Thanks for an excellent post. These are great points to consider. There are many atheists who are quite bold in their attacks on Christianity. There are also Catholics who do not defend the Church or faith in Christ or God – but who side with the atheists instead.
 
Thank you. Catholics need to be aware that on the internet, too many “opinions” pass as facts. They need to be good apologists. Even in Biblical times, false Christians attempted to bring heresies and false doctrines into the early Church.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Hello Tor,

I am a historian of the history of technology. Scientists, themselves, usually do not have evil designs on the world and do not want to take away my Bible, but according to a study by Nature magazine, most scientists disbelieve in God. This is a spiritual matter that leaves them vulnerable to others who may use their talents for bad ends.

This was already evident in 1953 when President Eisenhower addressed the American Society of Newspaper Editors:

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies - in a final sense - a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children… This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the threatening cloud of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.”
excerpt from Storm Warning by Billy Graham.

The Bible tells us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but if no such appropriate understanding of our Lord exists, what is possible? I do pray for them in hope.

God bless,
Ed
Click to expand...
Hello Ed:

Now the quote from Eisenhower is something I can get behind 100%.

I would find comfort in the fact that this kind of social conscience exist across social and professional groups. I have no doubt that you would find large numbers of scientists who agree, and I see no reason to believe that scientists do not have as strong ethical and moral value systems as any other professional group.

Please also consider that people are able to form perfectly good moral belief systems without being Catholics. I know you would feel better reassured if everyone was, but at least in my experience I find that human kindness and compassion is nobody’s exclusive property.

Respectfully,

Tor

P.S. I have to tell you this: I find your rejection of militarism the most hopeful thing I have read in a long time. There are threads on this forum that could need some of your wisdom on this issue.
 
I have read scientists like Arthur C. Clarke who said that ethics and morality are not limited to any one religion. This is true. But what is also true is that human embryos are being killed, and they are without a doubt, provably human. Both you and I began as human embryos. I can give other examples where putting human life at risk of death was justified by scientists for various reasons, and these examples are all in the United States.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
I have read scientists like Arthur C. Clarke who said that ethics and morality are not limited to any one religion. This is true. But what is also true is that human embryos are being killed, and they are without a doubt, provably human. Both you and I began as human embryos. I can give other examples where putting human life at risk of death was justified by scientists for various reasons, and these examples are all in the United States.

God bless,
Ed
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Are you going to mention syphilis experiments in the South, lobotomy in the 50s and 60s, or exposure of enlisted Army soldiers to radioactivity from nuclear tests?

Those are the ones that first come to my mind.

Best,

Tor

P.S. I have a differing view of abortion. I know that this makes me a handmaiden of Satan on this forum, but I regret to say that so far I have not seen grounds to change my position. Don’t get me wrong, I see abortion as a serious issue; to me it is an expression of a society that is full of suffering.
 
edwest2 said:
Hello Tor,

My intent is to provide information that is documented, not to frighten people:

amazon.com/Plutonium-Files-Americas-Medical-Experiments/dp/0385319541/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216609505&sr=8-1
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Hello Ed:

I read the synopsis at Amazon. This is what happens in the name of “national interest” in times when fear is allowed to cloud our judgment. Faint echoes of Mengele. It would be interesting to know how many of the people involved in the experiments were atheists, and how many were religious.

What I see in the Iraq war is that “Christian” arguments are sometimes used to bolster the rightness of our cause.

Best,

Tor
 
SFTor said:
I was not aware that there was this level of controversy around fluoride. Thank you for the information.

Best,

Tor
Click to expand...
Didn’t you know? Fluoride is responsible for everything from cancer to homosexuality. Did you ever notice that gays rarely have cavities? 😃
 
PaulDupre said:
Didn’t you know? Fluoride is responsible for everything from cancer to homosexuality. Did you ever notice that gays rarely have cavities? 😃
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Paul:

I have absolutely nothing against gays, but even I may not feel compelled to get close enough to determine the answer!😃

Best,

Tor
 
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