Evolution and God

[strugglingalong]

OK, let’s try this another way. Do you find it hard to grasp how something that is random to humans is not random to God? If so, why is that hard to grasp if you can accept the mystery of the Trinity? Nothing to do specifically with randomness, but with God’s ability to do or be something that we can’t understand.

Do you believe that we should be able to understand things on the same level as God does?

Peace

Tim

But natural selection is explicitly, clearly random to us in material nature. Can’t it be proven to be naturally random (in theory)?

Whereas when we look at persons and substance in the Most Holy Trinity, we don’t see anything appearing random. Yes, we can’t grasp it I agree. But the difference is when we look at natural selection we see something random and it is posited to be random. That is at the core of what it is and does. When we look at the Most Holy Trinity, we just can’t grasp it.

Do you see what I am saying? Natural selection is based upon, founded upon and posits chance. It is random at its core because that is the basis of it. Then when you say God is the One doing it, then we make God the author of something proposed to be wholly random. But God is not random. Everything we know of God is that He works in a very orderly fashion. Look at Sacred Scripture. The Temple is exact and orderly. The book of Revelation is the same way.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Orogeny]

I don’t think it can be.

Then you and I are on the same page.

Peace

Tim

 

[Namesake]

Because set up the basic Laws that Govern bodies in Space. Therefore the Bodies act in accordance with God’s ordinances. god then cans simply let those laws control the planets and He can do something else.

Not saying that you are, but that idea comes close to deism, which isn’t such a horrible thing at all. Thomas Jefferson was a deist as was Franklin, and John Adams, and most of the other founders of the USA. Good bunch of folks who apparently were well guided. But they were not guided by Christianity. Our Declaration of Independence was written not by a Christian but by a deist. Deists are OK with me and I reckon with you too.

 

[buffalo]

Then you and I are on the same page.

Peace

Tim

The universe has purpose and reason.

 

[Namesake]

But natural selection is explicitly, clearly random to us in material nature. Can’t it be proven to be naturally random (in theory)?

Natural selection is not in any way random. It’s the competition that makes it selective which means it isn’t random.

 

[Namesake]

The universe has purpose and reason.

Not that can be detected.

 

[buffalo]

Natural selection is not in any way random. It’s the competition that makes it selective which means it isn’t random.

If God kenw what Adam would look like, how then did He influence natural selection?

 

[Orogeny]

But natural selection is explicitly, clearly random to us in material nature. Can’t it be proven to be naturally random (in theory)?

To us, yes. To God? Ask buffalo. He will tell you that nothing can be random to God.

Whereas when we look at persons and substance in the Most Holy Trinity, we don’t see anything appearing random. Yes, we can’t grasp it I agree. But the difference is when we look at natural selection we see something random and it is posited to be random. That is at the core of what it is and does. When we look at the Most Holy Trinity, we just can’t grasp it.

Let go of the randomness of the Trinity. I never meant that there was randomness in the Trinity. I used the Trinity as an example of something we don’t understand but accept.

Do you see what I am saying?

Yes, but you clearly don’t understand what I am saying.

Natural selection is based upon, founded upon and posits chance.

No it doesn’t. It is the opposite of chance. It is not random. That’s why it is called natural selection.

It is random at its core because that is the basis of it. Then when you say God is the One doing it, then we make God the author of something proposed to be wholly random. But God is not random. Everything we know of God is that He works in a very orderly fashion. Look at Sacred Scripture. The Temple is exact and orderly. The book of Revelation is the same way.

I will accept your statement to be true when you show me that we are capable of understanding everything that God does on the level God understands it. Otherwise, what is random to us is not to God because NOTHING is random to God.

Peace

Tim

 

[strugglingalong]

Not saying that you are, but that idea comes close to deism, which isn’t such a horrible thing at all. Thomas Jefferson was a deist as was Franklin, and John Adams, and most of the other founders of the USA. Good bunch of folks who apparently were well guided. But they were not guided by Christianity. Our Declaration of Independence was written not by a Christian but by a deist. Deists are OK with me and I reckon with you too.

Deism is a definite error and a lack of understanding of God’s true nature. I agree though most of our founding fathers were Deists, which is why it drives me nuts when people say we were founded by Christians. Some were also Masons which is equally bad if not worse.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[buffalo]

Not that can be detected.

I believe Paul Davies says it can be.

 

[Namesake]

If God kenw what Adam would look like, how then did He influence natural selection?

I don’t know that God knew what Adam would look like. People who believe in special creation believe that, but there is no way to prove it. It is a faith issue, not a science issue. And Adam was probably not much like you and me because he had just recently evolved from a non human organism. In other words, two non human mammals had sex and the result was what we call Adam. It isn’t really that simple but it can serve as some sort of start to further understanding.

 

[strugglingalong]

To us, yes. To God? Ask buffalo. He will tell you that nothing can be random to God.Let go of the randomness of the Trinity. I never meant that there was randomness in the Trinity. I used the Trinity as an example of something we don’t understand but accept.Yes, but you clearly don’t understand what I am saying.No it doesn’t. It is the opposite of chance. It is not random. That’s why it is called natural selection. I will accept your statement to be true when you show me that we are capable of understanding everything that God does on the level God understands it. Otherwise, what is random to us is not to God because NOTHING is random to God.

Peace

Tim

Okay sorry if I was misunderstanding natural selection. Someone was saying something was random and I thought it was natural selection? I don’t claim to be a scientist and I’m not the best to get involved with the scientific aspect of it. I have much to learn on the theories. However we can’t just say, “Well that appears random to us but not to God” because the fact is that we see it as random. If we say God does things orderly then we are faced with a contradiction between Who we know God to be and the effects we see from Him that cannot contradict Him.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[edwest2]

Can he do it? I say no. What say you?

Peace

Tim

That one’s pretty funny Tim. It made me laugh. Just like George Carlin on stage asking God to strike him down, but, of course, nothing happened.

No, he can’t. But he is an evangelist for atheism. He has set up a foundation. He goes on television and speaks at universities. And so what, you might think? Well, according to the Pope, we Catholics should be out evangelizing. No, not fighting with people like Dawkins but realizing that he is using his credentials and science to tell people how reasonable it is to believe “we no longer believe in the Greek or Roman gods, I’m just adding one more” And in his nice British accent, this Professor seems convincing. When asked if man was formed from the dust of the earth and God breathed life into his nostrils, the pleasant sounding reply is No.

Wouldn’t you like to buy what this nice man is selling? How about a copy of his book that teaches parents how to raise their children without God?

Wouldn’t you like to tell your children, or anyone’s children, that you are the product of a cold, uncaring universe that did not have us in mind?

Peace,
Ed

 

[JRKH]

You sound like a perfect Deist - God the watchmaker Who creates and then lets it all go on its own.

Knowing a bit of what goes into making a watch, I find it hard to think of a watchmaker NOT being intimately involved with his creation. Even though that creation is out of his sight.
However I do know what you mean.

My view of Divine Providence is that God is integrally involved with His creation not only as First Cause but as governing all effects. From the same part of the Summa:

"Therefore as God is the first universal cause, not of one genus only, but of all being in general, it is impossible for anything to occur outside the order of the Divine government; but from the very fact that from one point of view something seems to evade theorder of Divine providence considered in regard to one particular cause, it must necessarily come back to that order as regards some other cause.

Reply to Objection 1. There is nothing wholly evil in the world, for evil is ever founded on good, as shown above (Question 48, Article 3). Therefore something is said to be evil through its escaping from the order of some particular good. If it wholly escaped from the order of the Divine government, it would wholly cease to exist.

Reply to Objection 2. Things are said to be fortuitous as regards some particular cause from the order of which they escape. But as to the order of Divine providence, “nothing in the world happens by chance,” as Augustine declares (QQ. 83, qu. 24)."

Pax Christi tecum.

Again, I wouldn’t argue this at all. Particularly my Bolded and underlined part above. Nothing can act outside of God because God IS all. Nothing can EXIST outside of God.
We are just arguing details. I could be Wrong, You could be Wrong, we both could be wrong, Or Right for that matter. My cental point in all of this is that no matter how much we argue about these details, it doesn’t Change God, or How God works.
Each individual must determine their own best understanding based on their own intellectual capability. After that, Trust God and Have faith. All will come Clear when we stand with God.

Peace
James

 

[Namesake]

Deism is a definite error and a lack of understanding of God’s true nature. I agree though most of our founding fathers were Deists, which is why it drives me nuts when people say we were founded by Christians. Some were also Masons which is equally bad if not worse.

Deists are bad? Jefferson and the beauty of his ideas guided by deism don’t seem bad to me. Jefferson was bad?

 

[Namesake]

Okay sorry if I was misunderstanding natural selection. Someone was saying something was random and I thought it was natural selection? I

Mutation is random. Selection is through competition. That means it isn’t random.

 

[edwest2]

Yes, but according to the theory, we could have turned out to be anything because random mutation means random mutations. Got it?

The Catholic Church teaches that whatever happened it was guided infallibly by God’s will. And to my fellow Catholics, are you forgetting about Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Matthew, Mark, etc.? God was intervening all the time!

Do miracles still happen today? Yes. Look up the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

God bless,
Ed

 

[JRKH]

Not saying that you are, but that idea comes close to deism, which isn’t such a horrible thing at all. Thomas Jefferson was a deist as was Franklin, and John Adams, and most of the other founders of the USA. Good bunch of folks who apparently were well guided. But they were not guided by Christianity. Our Declaration of Independence was written not by a Christian but by a deist. Deists are OK with me and I reckon with you too.

Well I don’t know about that, since I don’t know what a “Deist” is. Sounds like someone who believes in God, so I guess I fit in there…

Interesting that two people refered to me with that term.

As for “What I am” I am a Child of God, a believer in Jesus Christ, and who adheres to the Catholic church as THE Church which Christ Himself Founded.

Overall I have my hands full trying to live a Good Christian Life, Loving God and Neighbor and caring for my wife. I try to be obedient to God’s will in my life, and to be a good, prayerful, and loving son to my Heavenly Father.
Whatever insights I may have, or whatever my comments may “sound Like”, they are nothing more than the “understandings” of a poor, untrained and extremely limited intellect trying to convey something of the unfathomable.

I am greatful to God that He has not given me a mind that must try to understand Him, and all of His wonders or His ways, but is satisfied to reside in Him, Love Him and Worship Him as Our Lord and Brother Jesus Christ instructed us to.

Peace
James

 

[Namesake]

Yes, but according to the theory, we could have turned out to be anything because random mutation means random mutations. Got it?

Got it. Mutations are selected by nature otherwise they wouldn’t be successful. Or maybe you would say that mutations are preferred by God, and that would be OK with me.

 

[edwest2]

Deism is a definite error and a lack of understanding of God’s true nature. I agree though most of our founding fathers were Deists, which is why it drives me nuts when people say we were founded by Christians. Some were also Masons which is equally bad if not worse.

Pax Christi tecum.

Religious affiliation of the Founding Fathers:

adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Deists are not OK with me since they believe God got the ball rolling and that’s it. God has been intervening all the time and even sending the Blessed Virgin.

God bless,
Ed