Evolution vs creation - let's give up on sounding educated!

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Chuck:
There has been an overwhelming collection of facts accumulated that range from genetics to cosmology that prevent macro gradualism from occurring.
What, exactly, is “macro gradualism?” Moreover, can you define explicitly what you think “macroevolution” is? As cosmology has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology, we can ignore your curious statement that this discipline has somehow falsified “macroevolution” (whatever that means here), and instead we can focus on some of the biological data you allude to. Would you mind explicitly enumerating the biological and other pertinent data which have refuted evolutionary biology?

Vindex Urvogel
 
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tobias:
Well Chuck, I share your concerns. And the debate is certainly not over, unless of course science is your religion. I would dispute any ‘so-called’ evidence of evolution. Because there is none, there is only theory and hypothoses
Can you please explicitly define “theory” and “hypothesis” sensu stricto, i.e., in the way in which they are used by the scientific community. Moreover, to reject one paradigm you must advance evidence in defense of another. It is not sufficient to not propose an explicit alternative hypothesis to model the data in question.
because outside of the advent of a time traveling device, the theory is unprovable.
As evolutionary biology can be considered a historical narrative explanation, and thus verified on the basis of induction, might you care to explain to us why and how one would go about a formal proof for that which does not employ them?
If evolution is true then explain the existence of no transitional stages of fossils.
What to you constitutes a transitional fossil? Is BMNH 37001 a transitional? HMN 1880? JM 2257? What of IVPP V 10895? IVPP V 10919-10925? BVP 538A and 538B? IVPP V 11303? How about LH-22? The Catalan hatchling? Maybe USNM 336535? YPM 1459? USNM 244318? BQ-59? BQ-50? If none of these are transitional fossils, then tell us why they aren’t. Explicit enumeration of the morphological evidence indicating that they are not transitionals would be ideal.

Vindex Urvogel
 
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Magnanimity:
I find it to be so bothersome that those who support evolution as if it is this impeccable brick wall of a theory
Given that evolutionary biology has endured 150 years of testing via the Popperian falsification criterion, it is certainly warranted to state that it is a robust theory.
Only major historical evidence one could readily think of is the fossil record, no? And needless to say, such a record by no means support evolution well. If it did, there would be no room for debate whatsoever. The provided “links” would be a slam dunk.
And on what explicit grounds does the fossil record not overwhelmingly corroborate evolutionary biology?
“the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry” - but, of course, it could only be so with an very good (or even mildly supportive) fossil record, along with perhaps other lines of evidence. There is no doubt that the biologial sciences imply commonality among all living organisms. Somehow though, this commonality translates to simple common ancestry, though there are many missing links in the argument from obvious commonality among organisms to common ancestry. Common design is equally plausible, and perhaps more so, given a lack of fossil support.
First and foremost the fossil record overwhelmingly corroborates evolutionary biology, which neither you nor anyone else on this thread has demonstrated otherwise. Moreover, there are multiple independent lines of evidence, from genetics to paleontology, which substantiate evolutionary biology. You propose as an alternative hypothesis, that of common design, presumably in this case equivalent to ID. Could you provide an explicit definition for the following:
  1. What constitutes an intelligent design
  2. A hypothesis of ID which clearly demarcates how it is to be recognized, offers a predictive framework, and meets the Popperian falsification criterion.
Vindex Urvogel
 
Edwin Taraba:
promethius said:
macro evolution has been refuted

surely you are joking? those protestant “scientists” who so valiently defend against evolution arent worth the ink used to print their texts when it comes to real science. QUOTE]

Promethius,

With all due respect. There are many reputable
scientists refuting Darwinism. For example, check out the following link.

discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/100ScientistsAd.pdf

Read this PDF file in detail. Read the fine print. Contemplate who it is on this list that you just called “protestant scientists not worth the ink used to print their texts”. You are referring to some of the finest scientists across the country. Biologists, chemists, physicists. Some of them are Catholic. Some of them Nobel prize nominees.
It’s bad enough that the Discovery Institute lies, but when you repeat their lies and perpetuate them, you do a disservice to the virtue of honesty around the world. I’m sure your repetition of these lies was accidental, Edwin - I doubt you realize that you are referencing a source which has been outed for absusing the facts of a situation on several occasions. That’s okay - it happens to the best of us. Hopefully this will help clarify matters for you a little.

First of all, anyone claiming to have been nominated for a Nobel prize at any point in the last fifty years is a liar. See here.

Secondly, the statement which these scientists supposedly are agreeing to is vaguely worded enough in areas that one could probably get anybody to agree to it. Heck, I agree that “careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian[sic] theory should be encouraged”. Unfortunately for both the Discovery Institute and you, however, a serious, unbiased examination of this evidence does little but increase one’s appreciation for the beautiful robust simplicity of the modern synthesis.

Thirdly, I am pretty certain that a large number of the scientists on that list probably don’t even know they are there, and would be pissed as all get out to learn that they are there. Did you take the time to email any of the listed names to see if they support being named on a list of evolution doubters, Edwin? It shouldn’t be too hard to find email addresses for Ph.Ds holding down jobs at public universities in the United States. The reason I ask is because this would not be the first time that the Discovery Institute has misappropriated legitimate scientific research, and it takes an organization like the NCSE actually taking the time to ask the scientists being so represented if they agree with such representation. Read more about it here, if you like.
 
Here we go again…I’m not gonna answer all these a fourth, fifth, and sixth time… 😃 I will let the Infidels take over this and all future evolution threads to get you creationists edumacated. 😛

tobias << If evolution is true then explain the existence of no transitional stages of fossils. >>

Transitional Fossils: short answer

Transitional Fossils: long answer

There are plenty of transitionals, and yes a lot of gaps. It’s the transitionals you need to deal with, not the gaps. :rolleyes:

Edwin << Read this PDF file in detail. Read the fine print. >>

I’ve seen it Edwin. Steve index = 1 (Stephen Meyer).

The Project Steve index = 430+ Steves and counting. 😛 That represents 43,000+ scientists since approx 1% of the population is a “Steve.” You aren’t reading this carefully, they mentioned your list. The Project Steve is a parody of such creationist lists supposedly questioning or denying evolution. What the Project Steve demonstrates is there is indeed enormous acceptance of macoevolution among modern science. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution (attributed to biologist Dobzhansky who was also Russian Orthodox).

The statement in your PDF list from the Discovery Institute is non-controversial: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.” Even Stephen Jay Gould is skeptical of natural selection, which is one of the reasons he proposed punctuated equilibria. The second sentence is just fine: careful examination of the evidence is what science is all about.

One of those on your list (Mike Behe) I’ve already explained accepts the common ancestry of human beings and the great apes. Another, Dembski, says that common descent is an in-house debate among “intelligent design” advocates. The majority on that list would probably have no problems with macroevolution (common descent) if you ask them. The mechanism or the “how” of evolution is always being debated, so that’s nothing new.

What you need is a list of Ph.D. scientists who either deny the earth is old, or explicitly deny common descent. You will find such “creation scientists” at the ICR and AnswersInGenesis (and other young-earth groups). Those are the “protestant scientists who aren’t worth the ink” mentioned above.

Phil P
 
As for the evolution of the eye, it was a problem in Darwin’s day, but not so much today. Such things have been explained by evolution. The leading expert on this is probably zoologist Dan-Erik Nilsson. He works with the Lund Vision Group at Lund University in Sweden. The 2001 PBS Evolution series featured him in a segment.

BTW, I didn’t write that statement above that “Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry.” That’s the NCSE statement signed by the 430+ Steve’s representing 43,000 Ph.D. scientists. However, John Paul II wrote something quite similar as already noted. See also the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 283:

“The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers…” (CCC 283)

Who are these scholars and researchers? I would suggest among them are the many Steves mentioned above, not the “doubters” at the Discovery Institute, Kolbe Center, or AnswersInGenesis, who promote bad science, bad theology, and bad logic. :o

Phil P
 
Vindex Urvogel:
Given that evolutionary biology has endured 150 years of testing via the Popperian falsification criterion, it is certainly warranted to state that it is a robust theory.
First, I didn’t say it wasn’t robust. It certainly is, and my comments, moreover, alluded to this fact. The criticism however is that the evolutionist is usually in the bad business of overstatement, and the individual who had posted (to whom I was replying) was no exception to this unfortunate practice.
Vindex Urvogel:
And on what explicit grounds does the fossil record not overwhelmingly corroborate evolutionary biology?
By not providing an obvious chain of links from one organism to another. That is, it seems to me, the only explicit grounds possible, no?
Vindex Urvogel:
First and foremost the fossil record overwhelmingly corroborates evolutionary biology, which neither you nor anyone else on this thread has demonstrated otherwise.
No, I’m sorry, you’ve switched the cart and horse here. It is on the shoulders of the one postively putting forth the theory (or supporting it) where the responsibility lies to provide evidence. Again, evolution is an historical argument regarding origins. Therefore, historical evidence must be supplied and be truly overwhelming before any support can be legitimately had from the fossil record. It is not on me to show the lack of real links, naturally, since if there are no links I’m aware of to show, there would be nothing for me to provide. It is on the evolutionist to provide the positive evidence for his position.
Vindex Urvogel:
Moreover, there are multiple independent lines of evidence, from genetics to paleontology, which substantiate evolutionary biology. You propose as an alternative hypothesis, that of common design, presumably in this case equivalent to ID. Could you provide an explicit definition for the following:
  1. What constitutes an intelligent design
No, I’m not confident that I could supply an adequate definiton here, but undoubtedly it would incorporate aspects of Behe’s irreducible complexity arguments, along with Remine’s general thesis.

But, regressing back a bit, the problem of evolution is for me something like the problem of evil. God’s existence is demonstrable, and this is the place I start from (a la St. Thomas Aquinas). And the fact that contingent being ever needs a ground in necessary being would also demonstrate the impossibility of purely naturalistic evolution. So, conceivably there would be no problem accepting theistic evolution on these grounds, however, since I see very little positive evidence ever put forth by evolutionists (along with a lack of being able to adequately repudiate Behe’s arguments), I have no positive reasons for accepting evolution, whether or not I could provide a very good framework for a discussion of design.
 
To all evolutionist from my simple observation, well I can see lots of monkeys and as well human still today, but if the evolution in true why I can’t see half human and half monkey or nearly human face monkeys roaming at the downtown buying their clothes or talking monkey at the counter, the link is missing, why? :confused: The scientist who first fantasizes this is Satan’s advocate, I hope you’re not one of them.
 
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Hilario:
To all evolutionist from my simple observation, well I can see lots of monkeys and as well human still today, but if the evolution in true why I can’t see half human and half monkey or nearly human face monkeys roaming at the downtown buying their clothes or talking monkey at the counter, the link is missing, why? :confused: The scientist who first fantasizes this is Satan’s advocate, I hope you’re not one of them.
Everybody pay attention. This is called the “I don’t understand evolution, therefore it is not true” argument with a little of “If monkeys still exist, how can there be humans?” argument mixed in. These have already been dealt with by Vindex Urvogel. Please go back and read the entire thread.
 
Booger << These have already been dealt with by Vindex Urvogel. Please go back and read the entire thread. >>

Several threads in fact. 😃 Here is the answer from TalkOrigins

We got us, so why still apes? short answer

Hominids: Frequently Asked Questions

Really, people who argue against evolution need to pick up at least one book that defends evolution (from whatever perspective: Dawkins, Gould, Mayr, Kenneth Miller, at least something loaded with science, etc). I will count as one book printing out all these articles below, taking them to Kinkos, and having them spiral bound (as I do frequently). Some of us have more time on our hands than others to do this… 😃

Evolution for Dummies

Print out at least a couple of these.

It reminds me of your typical Protestant Fundamentalist who argues against Catholicism by just reading anti-Catholic literature like Boettner, Jack Chick, etc. Sad but true. :rolleyes: Now I understand some of the Catholic converts from fundamentalism (I’m cradle myself) having a fondness for “creationism” as science, but please pick up a few good books first.

Phil P
 
some points to be made, perhaps redundant, since i skimmed through the thread since my last post, but here goes… point/counterpoint:

1) The fossil record should show transitional forms if evolution is valid. Well, truth of the matter is that the fossil record DOES show transitional forms. in fact, every fossil IS a transitional form from what came before it and what it later became.

2) If every fossil is a transitional form, where are the half men half apes? granted the cromagnan man, and other forms which are MUCH more apelike than humans today (at least confirming microevolution) would seem to fit this bill, there are any number of reasons why we dont see half-man half monkeys lately. most primary is the fact that out of the millions of animals and humans that have lived out life on this earth, VERY few fossils actually exist.

3) But can’t fossils be formed in high pressure, like science experiments showed? no. not in nature, because the regions where pressure is so high in nature causes dramatic increases in heat, which would incinerate the fossils. the conditions in which scientists created the fossils are not replicable in nature, but can be used to calculate the amount of time that bones take to fossilize in natural conditions.

4) Doesnt the one of the laws of thermodynamics say that things tend toward chaos? Wouldnt evolution be contrary? No, evolution is an increase in the level of complexity of a creature or species. increase in the complexity of a system leads to higher orders of chaos inherent in it. evolution in effect supports the theory.

5) But what about where the bible says that the world was created in six days? well, if we look at the word in ancient hebrew for day, it has multiple meanings. notable is the fact that the word also applies to the current term “age” meaning that the bible could just as easily accurately say that the world was created in six ages. FURTHERMORE, science shows that dinosaurs existed thousands of years before man ever appeared on earth. this effectively shatters the six literal days fallacy right along with the fact that the sun wasnt even created until the third day, making things a little sketchy when we think of the term day meaning from sunset to sunset (according to ancient jewish tradition).

**6) isnt evolution a theory? doesnt that mean it hasnt been proven? ** NO, NO, NO! theory, in science, is actually more solidly proven than law. the THEORY of relativity is known to be true. the LAW of gravity is an observable that may change over time as our ability to observe minute interactions in quantum physics changes over time.

7) are evolution and religion irreconciliable? not at all, evolution is a means to creation, good scientists who are also very religious recognize that evolution is a fact, and that God used it to create mankind.
 
…continued…

8) what about the complexity of human systems like the eyes?
well, there are several things to point out on this matter… such as the fact that eyes are merely advanced light receptacles. slime mold colonies contain “eyes” as well, which are a much more simple version of what has become our eyes today. furthermore, if we recognize the idea that the world has an intelligent designer, then it would seem clear that evolution could easily be guided to complexity. however, even the random chance is not that negligable, since it represents a colony function of a society of one celled organisms becoming a permanent organ of the human body… strength in numbers.

9) but what about all those scientists who say that evolution is wrong? well, any of them that had a great name for themselves in the field of biology pertinant to evolution is long gone. scientists have always railed against contrary theories being expressed by other scientists. many nobel prize winners tried to squash einstein’s work, which has become the bulwork on which modern physics is based today. today, well educated scientists recognize that evolution is present even today and can reconcile that with their faith.

10) but didnt darwins theory get proven to be incorrect? yes. actually, darwin himself recognized that his theory is incomplete. natural selection accounts for a large part of evolution (even today natural selection plays a role) but it cannot count for all in anyway. simply put, defense mechanism, colony development, mutation, seperation, specialization, and other theories ALL combine to paint a picture of how evolution has occured. the questioning of evolution based on simply refuting darwins theory is akin to reading only corinthians from the bible and then saying that all of christianity was incorrect because corinthians didnt encompass every question about the faith.
 
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Magnanimity:
By not providing an obvious chain of links from one organism to another. That is, it seems to me, the only explicit grounds possible, no?
Though it is difficult to constructively examine this criticism without an explicit evidentiary standard advanced on your part on the matter of the fossil record vis-a-vis evolution, I think we can at least take one alleged specimen displaying intermediate morphologies between clades and examine it. There are a wealth of specimens from which to choose, but I think the point best illustrated by picking one of the more obscure but more excellent, to demonstrate that the evolutionist need not run to *Archaeopteryx lithographica *(though the urvogel serves admirably in this case) to demonstrate a transitional fossil. Thus, let us examine RTMP 86.36.457, a braincase of Troodon formosus (Currie & Zhao 1993). For the less inspired amongst us, who haven’t the fortunate predisposition to things archosaurian, Troodontidae (Gilmore 1924d=Saurornithoididae sensu Barsbold 1974) are small theropods known from Cretaceous sediments of the Northern Hemisphere. Though fairly rare and fragmentary in the fossil record, the past several years have witnessed a renaissance in our understanding of this clade following the recovery of the most basal known troodont, Sinovenator changii (Xu et al. 2002) and other similarly basal forms (e.g., Byronosaurus jaffei Makovicky et al. 2003). A close phylogenetic relationship between Troodontidae and Aves has been postulated several times (e.g., Currie 1985, 1987, Currie & Zhao 1993). Briefly, the phylogenetic relationships of troodonts vis-a-vis other maniraptorans are not clear, though there is general consensus that they constitute the sister clade of Dromaeosauridae within a monophyletic Deinonychosauria (defined phylogenetically as a node, Dromaeosauridae + Troodontidae), e.g., Xu et al. (2002), Clark et al. (2002). Prior analyses grouped Troodontidae and Ornithomimidae within Bullatosauria (e.g., Holtz 1994). The morphology of Sinovenator changii suggests that derived similarities between ornithomimosaurs and troodonts have been convergently acquired and for this I refer the reader to Xu et al.'s 2002 paper in Nature. If troodonts are close relatives of birds or neoflightless post-urvogels more closely related to the crown than is *Archaeopteryx *(e.g., Paul 1988, 2002), we should expect to see a blend of apomorphic (i.e., avian) and plesiomorphic (i.e., “typical” theropod) characters within the skeleton. This would fit admirably the standard definition of a transitional taxon as that which bridges via morphological intermediacy, two levels of organization or clades. The question thus is, what do we find when we examine the morphology of troodonts?

Vindex Urvogel
 
The specimen in question, RTMP 86.36.457 is referred to Troodontidae and specifically to T. formusus on the basis of comparison with known troodontid material figured previously by Currie (1985)–also see Osmolska & Barsbold (1990). This braincase is fairly complete, lacking the roofing elements (i.e., the frontals and parietals) and much of the basisphenoid/parasphenoid complex. It includes the supraoccipital, exoccipitals, basioccipital, some of the basisphenoid and parasphenoid, the opisthotics, the laterosphenoids, and the prootics. The presence of an epiotic arising from a separate center of ossification cannot be determined, unfortunately. Briefly, the braincase of *Troodon *shares unambiguous synapomorphic characters with those of archaic birds including Archaeopteryx lithographica, *Enaliornis barretti *and *Enaliornis sedgwickii *and Hesperornis regalis which span the full breadth of braincase morphology. In these five taxa the basisphenoidal recess is reduced or lost. The trigeminal nerve has split within the prootic with the opthalmic branch thereof passing through a tube piercing the laterosphenoid and emerging via a small foramen on the face of the alaparasphenoid. The secondary foramen lateral to this in both *Troodon *and *Enaliornis *is likely for the protractor nerve–the important point is the that the trigeminal nerve has subdivided within the prootic, as in birds. The metotic strut is present and has consequently diverted the Xth and XIth nerves caudally towards and onto the occiput. As a result the glossopharyngeal has split from the fovea gangli vagoglossopharygnealis, passing laterally into the metotic foramen and then into the back of the tympanic cavity. The metotic foramen has closed to a slit, and no longer opens laterally as in other theropods. The entire complement of periotic pneumatic sinuses present in birds, is present in *Troodon, *notably an elaborate cranial pneumatic recess with a complex diverticula pattern. The tympanic cavity itself is bounded cranially by the alaparasphenoid and caudally by the paroccipital process. The crista prootica lacks the winglike process characteristic of theropods. In all of these characters the braincase of *Troodon formosus *is essentially that of an ornithurine bird.

Vindex Urvogel
 
Nevertheless, RTMP 86.36.457 also displays a number of plesiomorphic characters with other theropods. These include the vastly increased length of the ventral margins of the basioccipital (which is likely autapomorphic of troodonts) and the exceptionally inflated basiptergyoid processes. The metotic strut is more robustly demarcated in *Troodon *than at least Enaliornis, but this may be a post-urvogel apomorphy (see Paul 2002). The parietals in troodonts retain a narrow sagittal crest absent in birds. *Troodon *shares with both *Allosaurus fragilis *and tyrannosaurids a separate branch for the opthalmic branch of the trigeminal nerve, and this is the plesiomorphic condition in Maniraptora. The difference in birds and the most paravian theropods lies in the course of the opthalmic subsequent to its divergence from the trigeminal nerve. The caudal portion of the lateral depression in the wall of the braincase is most likely homologous with the paracondylar pocket of the basal ceratosaurian Dilophosaurus wetherilli (Currie 1985).

In the final analysis, the braincase of Troodon, as revealed by RTMP 86.36.457 displays a curious amalgam of apormophic, avian, traits, and plesiomorphic, non-avian theropod traits. Thus, this specimen would seem to argue in favor of the status of transitional for T. formosus, predicted by those reserachers who have postulated a close relationship between troodonts and birds. Fortunately for you, this hypothesis is very easily falsified. All you need do is demonstrate that the characters advanced as avian have been misinterpreted, or demonstrate that *Troodon *is more closely related to any given non-avian theropod clade than it is to Paraves or Aves itself. I eagerly await your data demonstrating as much.

Vindex Urvogel
 
Vindex Urvogel:
Thus, this specimen would seem to argue in favor of the status of transitional for T. formosus, predicted by those reserachers who have postulated a close relationship between troodonts and birds.
Vindex Urvogel
Or, if you don’t like troodonts, we can use, say, Confuciusornis sanctus and the cranial morphology thereof.

Vindex Urvogel
 
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Magnanimity:
No, I’m not confident that I could supply an adequate definiton here, but undoubtedly it would incorporate aspects of Behe’s irreducible complexity arguments, along with Remine’s general thesis
If you cannot explicitly define ID, which one presumes is the alternative hypothesis you have advanced over evolutionary biology, then you are not in fact making any argument at all against evolution.

Vindex Urvogel
 
Vindex-

You win (I think). Are you argueing for or against evolution?🙂 and I actually pretend I know a bit about science.

Kris
 
I will wait till all the experts agree. They are certainly much brighter than I and if they can’t agree then how can I hope to understand. For now I shall believe that God created this wonderful world and not concern myself with how he did it.
 
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