Evolution

[The_Barbarian]

More speculation about our supposed ancestors:

It’s not surprising that a primate so close to the human/ape divide would be the subject of contention. It would be disturbing if there were no such transitionals, for that would bring into question the idea of common descent.

It’s notable that creationists aren’t able agree among themselves as to the status of various hominin fossils. Would you like to give it a try, Ed?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

(Barbarian notes that teeth can be used to identify animals)

Different orders of mammals. Rodents, lagomorphs, carnivores, xenarthrans, among others.

All animals that leave teeth are real.

Yes but was it a man or an ape?

 

[Thing]

Because they have invented tools and devices to do it for them.

For humans, cultural innovation rapidly outpaces biological innovation, and makes adaptation unnecessary. Works that way with chimps, too. They eat a lot of termites, and long thin digit like that of an Aye-Aye would be useful to them. But they long ago invented probing tools that allow them to get the termites without any adaptations.

…they don’t have tools for climbing trees, they just have their arms and their legs, as Nina might have said.

 

[The_Barbarian]

…they don’t have tools for climbing trees, they just have their arms and their legs, as Nina might have said.

No ropes, or steps, or constructed hand and footholds? Every one I’ve seen, does.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
All animals that leave teeth are real.

Yes but was it a man or an ape?

That would be a tough one, unless it was a very modern human. Modern humans have smaller teeth than apes. Primitive humans vary in size from very apelike to almost the size of those of modern humans.

So there are some transitional examples that are harder to classify.

It would be a problem for evolution, if such transitionals did not exist.

 

[reggieM]

Homo sapiens has spread to many more environments, including back into forests.

Thanks for the additional data and clarification. From what I could find thus far, there have been no Homo sapien fossils found in forest areas (thus far) so I stand corrected. Thanks.

Regarding the above statement – isn’t it inconsistent that when apes moved to the plains they evolved into humans, but when they moved back to the forest they didn’t evolve again (or they didn’t return to being ape-like)?

 

[rossum]

Yes but was it a man or an ape?

Since you used “or” I could just answer “yes”.

In scientific terms humans are apes (Hominidae), so another possible answer is “both”.

However, a better response would be to ask you how you define “man”. If “man” means only Homo sapiens then it was an ape. If “man” includes all our ancestors and their relatives that are closer to our line than to the line leading to chimps then the answer is probably that it was a man. The answer depends on where you draw the line between man and ape, and on which side of the line you place Ardipithecus.

rossum

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Since you used “or” I could just answer “yes”.

In scientific terms humans are apes (Hominidae), so another possible answer is “both”.

However, a better response would be to ask you how you define “man”. If “man” means only Homo sapiens then it was an ape. If “man” includes all our ancestors and their relatives that are closer to our line than to the line leading to chimps then the answer is probably that it was a man. The answer depends on where you draw the line between man and ape, and on which side of the line you place Ardipithecus.

rossum

I think I’d draw it at Homo sapien. What species were the cave painters in Lascaux?

 

[rossum]

Thanks for the additional data and clarification. From what I could find thus far, there have been no Homo sapien fossils found in forest areas (thus far) so I stand corrected. Thanks.

Regarding the above statement – isn’t it inconsistent that when apes moved to the plains they evolved into humans, but when they moved back to the forest they didn’t evolve again (or they didn’t return to being ape-like)?

Humans tend to use tools to climb - ropes, ladders etc. That reduces the need to be able to climb unassisted. Maybe in a few thousand generations we will begin to notice more changes.

rossum

 

[rossum]

I think I’d draw it at Homo sapien. What species were the cave painters in Lascaux?

They were early Homo sapiens, often called Cro Magnons. If that is where you draw the line then all the Ardipithecus species would have been apes.

rossum

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They were early Homo sapiens, often called Cro Magnons. If that is where you draw the line then all the Ardipithecus species would have been apes.

rossum

Thanks! Sounds good to me!

 

[The_Barbarian]

That definition would rule out people like the Neandertals, who did some art, made sophisticated weapons, wore clothes, and cared for the helpless among them.

They aren’t humans? If not, what is a human?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That definition would rule out people like the Neandertals, who did some art, made sophisticated weapons, wore clothes, and cared for the helpless among them.

They aren’t humans? If not, what is a human?

How do evolutionists know they weren’t homo sapiens? How do evolutionist “draw the line” ?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That definition would rule out people like the Neandertals, who did some art, made sophisticated weapons, wore clothes, and cared for the helpless among them.

They aren’t humans? If not, what is a human?

Looks like Neanderthals were able to mate with Cro-magnon, so they are the same species.

A main proponent of the interbreeding hypothesis is Erik Trinkaus of Washington University. In a 2006 study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Trinkaus and his co-authors report a possibility that Neanderthals and humans did interbreed. The study claims to settle the extinction controversy; according to researchers, the human and neanderthal populations blended together through sexual reproduction. Trinkaus states, “Extinction through absorption is a common phenomenon.”[37] and “From my perspective, the replacement vs. continuity debate that raged through the 1990s is now dead”.[38]

There is a possibility Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons interbred but left little genetic evidence. There is an ongoing debate about whether the hunter-gatherers of the middle stone age started farming when they came in contact with agriculture, or were completely replaced by the farmers moving in from the Middle East. If modern Europeans are mainly descendants of these farming people with little or no genetic (name removed by moderator)ut from the foragers of the middle stone age, then possible interbreeding between them and the Neanderthals would not have had a great effect on the modern gene pool.[41]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

 

[rossum]

How do evolutionists know they weren’t homo sapiens?

In the case of Neanderthals we examine their mitochondrial DNA. See Neandertal DNA Sequences and the Origin of Modern Humans from which this diagram comes:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6WSN-419B8BT-5-C/0?wchp=dGLzVtb-zSkzk

You can see that Neanderthals are a separate group, closer to humans than to chimps but separate from humans. If there was any DNA transfer then it was probably minimal. There is also the evidence of their skeletons, they had larger brains than ours, a different shaped cranium, brow ridges and a different structure to their nose. They were also a lot stronger than we are on average.

How do evolutionist “draw the line” ?

See the above diagram and comments.

rossum

 

[Thing]

No ropes, or steps, or constructed hand and footholds? Every one I’ve seen, does.

If they do, which I don’t recall seeing, the ascent up the tree still remains vertical and any constructed footholds are just considered as more conveniently placed branches. Climbing up a tree is still climbing up a tree.

 

[Thing]

Looks like Neanderthals were able to mate with Cro-magnon, so they are the same species.

A main proponent of the interbreeding hypothesis is Erik Trinkaus of Washington University. In a 2006 study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Trinkaus and his co-authors report a possibility that Neanderthals and humans did interbreed. The study claims to settle the extinction controversy; according to researchers, the human and neanderthal populations blended together through sexual reproduction. Trinkaus states, “Extinction through absorption is a common phenomenon.”[37] and “From my perspective, the replacement vs. continuity debate that raged through the 1990s is now dead”.[38]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Heres a reconstruction of a Neanderthal skull from a skull found in Israel, I did the modeling fairly quickly but you get the idea of what the person could have looked like anyway, not too unusual.

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[The_Barbarian]

Rossum, do we have DNA evidence for anatomically modern humans from the same age as that of the Neandertal DNA we have?

How do we know humans today aren’t also different from anatomically modern humans of that time?

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian on New Guinea tree houses:
No ropes, or steps, or constructed hand and footholds? Every one I’ve seen, does.

If they do, which I don’t recall seeing, the ascent up the tree still remains vertical and any constructed footholds are just considered as more conveniently placed branches. Climbing up a tree is still climbing up a tree.

Let’s take a look:



This one, from New Guinea, has a ladder. Gorillas do build shelters in trees, but I don’t remember seeing one with a ladder. No need to; they can climb efficiently.

 

[Thing]

Theres a difference between climbing a vertical ladder and climbing a vertical tree?