Evolution

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Thing said:
Theres a difference between climbing a vertical ladder and climbing a vertical tree?
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Thereā€™s not enough difference to explain the so-called evolutionary changes, as I see it.

Humans learned how to create ladders while living in the plains where there were no trees? (Apparently, difference in consciousness and intelligent levels were created by living in the plains also ā€¦?)

Also, if it helps them climb trees better, why havenā€™t apes learned how to build ladders also?

If ladders are not better, then humans should have evolved back to the traits that they had before ā€œwhen they were apesā€.
 
The_Barbarian said:
Rossum, do we have DNA evidence for anatomically modern humans from the same age as that of the Neandertal DNA we have?
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I would suspect that somewhere in the scientific literature there are some DNA results for old humans. Whether they would be 30,000 years old as with the Neanderthal mtDNA tested I do not know. There is indirect evidence that the genome of Homo sapiens is substantially unchanged for the last 100,000 years and possibly for the last 150,000 years.
How do we know humans today arenā€™t also different from anatomically modern humans of that time?
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We can compare skeletons. There are a few minor differences such as a tendancy to be slightly more robust, though nowhere near as robust as the Neanderthals.

rossum
 
ā€¦laddersā€¦
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Yes, people need ladders, but climbing up ladders does not make men apes in quite the same way as climbing down ladders makes apes menā€¦:hmmm:
 
I have no problem with prehistoric man being made in the image of God. Prehistory simply means history that has no written record of it. In a way, I imagine prehistoric man was closer to God. As we grow more and more civilized and dependent on what mankind has created and explained to us, we grow further and further from God. We lose touch with our creator and all of His creations.
 
Also, if it helps them climb trees better, why havenā€™t apes learned how to build ladders also?
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Because they usually donā€™t need them. However, in an emergencyā€¦

**Ladder Use and Clubbing by a Bonobo (Pan paniscus) in Apenheul Primate Park
Kenneth C. Gold *
Apenheul Primate Park, Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Abstract
Two types of tool use were shown by a captive bonobo (Pan paniscus) in a large outdoor enclosure at Apenheul Primate Park in The Netherlands. A wild-born young adult female (estimated to be 9 years old) used fallen branches as ladders to bypass protective sheaths to gain access to trees. **
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/101523441/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0:yup:
 
Heres a reconstruction of a Neanderthal skull from a skull found in Israel, I did the modeling fairly quickly but you get the idea of what the person could have looked like anyway, not too unusual.
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It is true, is it not, that early Neandertals like those found in Israel, are more like anatomically modern humans than later, more evolved Neandertals?
 
The_Barbarian said:
Two types of tool use were shown by a captive bonobo (Pan paniscus) in a large outdoor enclosure at Apenheul Primate Park in The Netherlands. A wild-born young adult female (estimated to be 9 years old) used fallen branches as ladders to bypass protective sheaths to gain access to trees.
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/101523441/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0:yup:
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I donā€™t think that shows highly evolved intelligence. It is more like instinct like when a mouse navigates a maze to reach the cheese. Could it also be that in this regard, the ape used its natural ability like an infant human doing that same thing?
 
The_Barbarian said:
It is true, is it not, that early Neandertals like those found in Israel, are more like anatomically modern humans than later, more evolved Neandertals?
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As you say. I looked at as many Neanderthal skulls as I could find and chose one skull based on two conditions, - that there are good quality photos from at least two angles, this skull was even better it also had a three quarter view. Other than that I just wanted a regular symmetrical shaped skull. Some skulls for whatever reason had sometimes eyesockets out of alignment or else had very asymmetrical cheek and upper jaw bones or were just too fragmentary. This was a very good looking skull, but where it is placed on the neanderthal timeline I cannot remember. It would be interesting to see. Some skulls looked deformed positively and the thought crossed my mind that some small communities of Neanderthal may have become very isolated later and inbred and so became ill and disfigured for want of fresh blood.
 
FreedomLiberal6 said:
Nice but in reallity he would have long hair,facial hair, umm no glasses but i know you were just showing what he would look like in modern times
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Yes, just so. And without soap Neanderthal males probably had a certain amount of beard. But not so sure about the long hair long beard wild look. Neanderthals used stone tools ā€˜indistinguishable from those produced by modern humansā€™. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racloir
The racloir is a shaped flint flake, very sharp, if fact its sharper than a steel blade and it would have no problem in giving a Neanderthal a nice tight haircut.
 
(writer denies that apes are capable of building ladders)

Report shows otherwise:

**Two types of tool use were shown by a captive bonobo (Pan paniscus) in a large outdoor enclosure at Apenheul Primate Park in The Netherlands. A wild-born young adult female (estimated to be 9 years old) used fallen branches as ladders to bypass protective sheaths to gain access to trees.
www3.interscience.wiley.com/jā€¦TRY=1&SRETRY=0 **
I donā€™t think that shows highly evolved intelligence.
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You thought it did before you realized apes sometimes build ladders. BTW, I was looking for another case, when some chimps built a ladder to escape a wall they could not climb in a zoo.

They are quite intelligent, and very capable of building crude devices when motivated.
It is more like instinct like when a mouse navigates a maze to reach the cheese.
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Most people who thought about it, would admit that building tools shows a much higher level of intelligence than navigating a maze.
Could it also be that in this regard, the ape used its natural ability like an infant human doing that same thing?
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Both have the intelligence to solve problems in novel ways. But no infant could do that. A toddler might, if she was exceptionally bright.

And a five-year-old could probably outdo the ape in that regard.
 
As you say. I looked at as many Neanderthal skulls as I could find and chose one skull based on two conditions, - that there are good quality photos from at least two angles, this skull was even better it also had a three quarter view. Other than that I just wanted a regular symmetrical shaped skull. Some skulls for whatever reason had sometimes eyesockets out of alignment or else had very asymmetrical cheek and upper jaw bones or were just too fragmentary. This was a very good looking skull, but where it is placed on the neanderthal timeline I cannot remember. It would be interesting to see. Some skulls looked deformed positively and the thought crossed my mind that some small communities of Neanderthal may have become very isolated later and inbred and so became ill and disfigured for want of fresh blood.
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Over time, fossils can be deformed by the pressure of overlaying rock, although Iā€™m not sure that it would be very significant over a few hundred thousand years. But maybe so.
 
Thing said:
Yes, people need ladders, but climbing up ladders does not make men apes in quite the same way as climbing down ladders makes apes menā€¦:hmmm:
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When I put my ladder up in my garage, my cats climb it.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
He looks so modern! Was his skull much bigger than a modern skull?
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Neandertal skull from Wadi Amud is about 60,000 years old. This particular person had a bigger head than modern men with a cranial capacity of 1,740 cubic centimeters compared to our own average of 1,400cc. His face was relatively long looking as the shape of the top of his skull is different tending to be slightly longer front to back. Was his skull much bigger? If my skull from my chin bone to the top of my head is 22cm his skull would be about 3cm longer at 25.4cm chin to top of his head.
 
Thing said:
Neandertal skull from Wadi Amud is about 60,000 years old. This particular person had a bigger head than modern men with a cranial capacity of 1,740 cubic centimeters compared to our own average of 1,400cc. His face was relatively long looking as the shape of the top of his skull is different tending to be slightly longer front to back. Was his skull much bigger? If my skull from my chin bone to the top of my head is 22cm his skull would be about 3cm longer at 25.4cm chin to top of his head.
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Thank you. Did he have a bigger brain, and if so, is it possible that there is reverse evolution?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Thank you. Did he have a bigger brain, and if so, is it possible that there is reverse evolution?
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Ahhh! Interesting notion, but you will soon be shut down. šŸ™‚

Could our skulls be smaller due to adaptation? Could our skulls and brain size/power be less than before the fall? Does a smaller brain diminish our ability to experience the supernatural?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Thank you. Did he have a bigger brain, and if so, is it possible that there is reverse evolution?
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Yes to the first, this mans brain was about one fifth larger than our average brain size. But there is variation among Neandertals as well as modern humans in that regard, his brain size however was at the highest end of the scale.
I did wonder sometimes if people de-volved, but, I think in humanity change is more lateral, how the brain is wired for use is probably more important than brain size overall, e.g. taxi drivers in a London study showed the highest brain usage (in scans), higher than the average Englishman or woman - possibly because they needed to memorize and conceptualize the London streetscape.
There is, I think, a large scope for adaptation to environments in nature, humans inc. As another example, the indians in the Bolivian mountains who live at altitudes anywhere up to 10,000 to 16,000 feet above sea level have proportionally shorter legs, presumably to make climbing less stressful and they also have much larger lungs to deal with the different atmosphere at altitude. Big changes but no less human people.
Also nordic people have developed different complexions to their ancestors, fair skin and blond hair - sunshine not being a danger up there.
There is speculation that Neandertals also had fair skin and red hair.
 
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