Evolution

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Also, a proponent of evolution goes beyond what he can say if he decides “Well, the Church is wrong about the direct creation of souls by God.”
Yes, I agree with that. And I am inclined to believe that true adherents of the evolution theory are obliged to recognize a dead end when tracing and fully understanding the single species that was primary ancestor of organisms, especially the human organism, unless they would left up their mind and heart to a Creator up above all things.
 
Well that is why Humani Generis is still relevant to any discussion of evolution after 50 odd years. It seems to me that humanity with a soul was done as the pinnacle of creation, so when God created the souls, it was His will that humanity began here. This was not a “roll of the dice” sort of thing. God knew where and when humanity would enter existence.

This is of course beyond what Science can discuss however.

Keep in mind that while evolution seems to be the best way to explain Creation based on what God did create (the physical laws of the universe for example), it cannot explain the direct creation of the soul.

Also, a proponent of evolution goes beyond what he can say if he decides “Well, the Church is wrong about the direct creation of souls by God.”
Dear DavWan,

I was really grateful when a poster mentioned Humani Generis. The section on Adam was perfect. I understand what you are saying about the soul and the pinnacle of creation. While science can’t examine the soul itself, it certainly should be able to observe some of the effects of the soul which I believe distinguish us from other mammals.Though, to be honest, I wouldn’t be able to describe those effects accurately. I just know they are there in maybe the same way that a scientist knows that I am different from a mother bear.

Some people look at the brain as the source of human power.
I see it as the soul. This is a simple thought. We, as humans, are what we are because God resides in our souls.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is God’s pride and joy.
 
This was answer to question 1, Keeping within the general theory of evolution, why is there only one teaching regarding evolution of human beings?
Dear Barbarian,
Could you please re-answer question 1. ? because I was thinking more about “scientific” teaching. I keep getting the impression that there is only one “scientific theory” explanation of how human beings evolved. Why only one?
There’s no “teaching” at all, in the sense I think you’re considering. No received wisdom, no revelation. We are picking around in the ancient evidence, and every now and then, someone pulls up something important, and everyone looks at it, and there’s some discussion, and maybe an argument or two, until all aspects are worked out, and then the darkness gives just a little, and we know a little bit more than before. That’s how it is. There’s always latitude for disagreement on the edges, but over time, as more evidence accumulates, one or another of the possibilities becomes sufficiently obvious.
Humans are so unique that I wonder if there could be a different model for their evolution–similar to what we have but different because of the unique nature and purpose of humanity.
In the sense, that we are the most plastic of all organisms from a behavior standpoint. Cultural evolution has become more important than our physical evolution, and this probably became the case before our particular species appeared. It was, after all a hallmark of the Neandertals as well. And since the discovery that H. ergaster (an very primitive form of H. erectus) had feet essentially like ours, the odds that they were moving long distances and becoming adapted to weapons and innovation are pretty good. (the discovery of their footprints confirms an earlier prediction that their postcranial skeletons were pretty much like ours)

Cardinal Ratzinger wrote:
With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
The unity of creation, the tree of life, is a good foundation because of the common elements of living beings. Yet, while similar, different species evolve differently, time being one of the differences.
Yes.
Human beings are the most different of all because of their supernatural soul. So why couldn’t there be an evolutionary model that would take into account the soul?
That is beyond the reach of science. As the Cardinal writes, that would be going beyond that which science can support. You can have a theology of evolution which considers the soul, but you cannot have a scientific theory that does it.
 
T
he Church is not indifferent to the way our bodies were created. To say otherwise is misleading. Eve was created by God from Adam’s side.
A literalistic reading of Genesis is not required or even encouraged by the Church, although you can accept it if you like.
 
Would you please give a couple of examples of macroevolution?
Sure. The evolution of the primrose O. lamarkania to O. gigas was the first documented one. (polyploidy event, so it was both sudden and discontinuous)

Theodosius Dobzhansky documented the allopatric speciation of a species of fly, which had formerly been interfertile throughout its range, but later showed reproductive isolation for one geographic group.
Number 5 sounds interesting Is there an on-line “evolutionary terms” dictionary or an on-line reliable, non-biased source for basic evolutionary info?
Hmmm… I think if you could find a copy of “Process and Pattern in Evolution” by Charlotte Avers, you’d see a very nice summation of the data. I like hers, because she includes the work of Fitch and Marguilis, which documents several kingdoms and details many species.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Margoliash.gif
users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Taxonomy.html#EmbryonicDevelopment
 
Yes, I agree with that. And I am inclined to believe that true adherents of the evolution theory are obliged to recognize a dead end when tracing and fully understanding the single species that was primary ancestor of organisms, especially the human organism, unless they would left up their mind and heart to a Creator up above all things.
I keep having doubts about a single anything being the primary ancestor of life. Didn’t Richard Dawkins say, at the end of Ben Stein’s documentary, that life could have been seeded by aliens? I still doubt my hearing; yet, I heard that comment outside of the movie. It’s o.k. to laugh at me. When I heard Dawkins’ comment, I pictured God sprinkling the earth with His seeds of grace.

It is my understanding that the evolutionary theory does not know what caused the lifeless to become life. So why isn’t there more than one theory? Why couldn’t there be another species besides the general common ancestor of life? The species which started out in the garden of Eden?

At that, evolutionists would point to the similarities between humans and chimps. Of course there would be similarities because of the unity which exists in the creation of life. Seems to me that a writer talked about Adam being formed from clay, a word indicating a foundation type of material which can be seen as the base for producing all life including the material aspect of humanity along with the chimp cousins…

Blessings,
granny
Human beings are worthy of profound respect.
 
That is beyond the reach of science. As the Cardinal writes, that would be going beyond that which science can support. You can have a theology of evolution which considers the soul, but you cannot have a scientific theory that does it.
Yes, that would be true if science should be restricted to empiricism alone.But if we accept that “science is systematic knowledge…”, then science would also include even philosophy and theology.
 
.

Cardinal Ratzinger wrote:
With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.

That is beyond the reach of science. As the Cardinal writes, that would be going beyond that which science can support. You can have a theology of evolution which considers the soul, but you cannot have a scientific theory that does it.
What is the context for Cardinal Ratzinger’s quote because I am interpreting it far differently?

I would like to see an expansion of the Cardinal’s words: “nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered.” In my humble opinion, these words are within the realm of science. The only thing beyond science is the soul, its very self.

Please note: I never mentioned any ideas that there could be any scientific evolutionary theory that the soul evolves. I’ve always referred to the physical aspect of humanity. I apologize if I were not perfectly clear at times. The soul is not available for scientific inquiry because it is immaterial.

However, I can now imagine that science can address effects of a supernatural soul because it is what makes us different in purpose from the animals. This would be more in the order of social and cultural etc. I’m thinking out loud on these posts so I mentioned this idea before, but added I couldn’t describe it.

I like agangbern’s reference to “science is systematic knowledge.”

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are loved by their Creator.
 
Now, I’m having fun. I’m like Thomas the Apostle in that I have to see something with my own eyes. Thanks Barbarian for link et al. Next, I have to find out what all those numbers mean.

What is interesting is that when the branch splits top left, all the animals are one side while human and monkey stand alone. I wonder if there were a slight misinterpretation of the evidence – maybe monkey should be with the other animals. Then human would stand alone. :hmmm:

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
I keep having doubts about a single anything being the primary ancestor of life. Didn’t Richard Dawkins say, at the end of Ben Stein’s documentary, that life could have been seeded by aliens? I still doubt my hearing; yet, I heard that comment outside of the movie. It’s o.k. to laugh at me. When I heard Dawkins’ comment, I pictured God sprinkling the earth with His seeds of grace.
It is understandable that you would have doubts about it. But in the final analysis God alone is the “primary ancestor of life”.

Obviously, Dawkins could have been simply making a speculation. And certainly, mere speculation would not qualify in their so called “empirical science”.
 
Hmmm… I think if you could find a copy of “Process and Pattern in Evolution” by Charlotte Avers, you’d see a very nice summation of the data. I like hers, because she includes the work of Fitch and Marguilis, which documents several kingdoms and details many species.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Margoliash.gif
users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Taxonomy.html#EmbryonicDevelopment
That presentation would appear that man came first before the cows came to be. That would be contrary to Genesis.
 
In all my wanderings in Catholic forums, I have still yet to receive a consistent explanation of theistic evolution by a Catholic who holds that position. So until Christ returns and tells me personally that the Apostles, Early Fathers, and Medieval Theologians misinterpreted Genesis by taking it literally, I will remain a creationist.

Here is a good article discussing the history of evolutionary theory in relation to Catholic teaching: christianorder.com/features/features_1998/features_aug-sep98.html
 
It is understandable that you would have doubts about it. But in the final analysis God alone is the “primary ancestor of life”.

Obviously, Dawkins could have been simply making a speculation. And certainly, mere speculation would not qualify in their so called “empirical science”.
I do like your phrase “primary ancestor of life”. But I would prefer to say that He is the primary giver of life. While He is the primary Creator, I keep thinking that maybe He created a more complicated source of life than we are seeing at the moment.

I do hope some posters take a serious look at the link The Barbarian put with that cool drawing. Scroll down to Phylogenetic trees – I would like to read the interpretations of its anomalies…and the sentence “This is certainly wrong.” There are some more interesting sections further down. I did not take the necessary time to go through this. Will do this later. Thanks.

Blessings,
granny

All created life is amazing.
 
In all my wanderings in Catholic forums, I have still yet to receive a consistent explanation of theistic evolution by a Catholic who holds that position. So until Christ returns and tells me personally that the Apostles, Early Fathers, and Medieval Theologians misinterpreted Genesis by taking it literally, I will remain a creationist.

Here is a good article discussing the history of evolutionary theory in relation to Catholic teaching: christianorder.com/features/features_1998/features_aug-sep98.html
You are free to believe in Creationism if you choose. However, do realize that not all Patristics and Medieval Theologians held it to be literal.

There is a difference between saying one may believe something and saying one must believe in something
 
That presentation would appear that man came first before the cows came to be. That would be contrary to Genesis.
No. You are trying to read it as a timeline. It is a family tree, showing degrees of relatedness. Time is not shown by the position on the tree.
 
That presentation would appear that man came first before the cows came to be. That would be contrary to Genesis.
I don’t see Cows on the tree at all, nor on the site. If I understand the tree properly, the numbers don’t have anything to do with date but with nucleotide substitution.
 
The monkey and human are placed at that distance, because they are more closely related to each other than either is related to any other on the tree.

The numbers represent the minimum number of nucleotide substitutions in the gene for cytochrome c needed to produce these 20 proteins from a series of hypothetical ancestral genes at the various branching points
users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Taxonomy.html#EmbryonicDevelopment

Cytochrome c is a very old molecule, found in all living things. All types work the same way, and are essentially equivalent. But some regions are variable because they don’t affect the activity of the molecule. So the are essentially free to mutate randomly. Note, randomly. In spite of this, the phylogeny from cytochrome c matches that of other phylogenies to a high degree of precision.

The notable difference is that rabbits are probably closer to primates than the chart indicates. Direct DNA analysis shows that to be. And DNA, being more variable, has a higher “resolution.”

So no, you would have to ignore some of the evidence to move the monkeys off our twig.
 
No. You are trying to read it as a timeline. It is a family tree, showing degrees of relatedness. Time is not shown by the position on the tree.
Oh I see. Therefore, evolutionists do not know which came first, man or horse, right?
 
I don’t see Cows on the tree at all, nor on the site. If I understand the tree properly, the numbers don’t have anything to do with date but with nucleotide substitution.
Ok, if you did not see a cow there, just replace it with horse. Maybe I mistook the horse to be cow.😃
 
Oh I see. Therefore, evolutionists do not know which came first, man or horse, right?
That does not follow. The tree is designed to show how close the species are in terms of nucleotides. It is not concerned with when the species appeared.
 
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