EWTN and private revelation

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim,
All apparitions are private revelation in the sense that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, John.

I think that is one area that can get kind of nebulous when it comes to private revelation. There aren’t 2 kinds of apparitions: public and private. There are 2 kinds of apparitions: approved and unapproved. They are all private revelations.

What I mean is, didn’t Jesus instruct Sr Faustina, to tell the world about her visions and about the devotion to the Divine Mercy?

Jim

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Originally Posted by Brennan
I watched an episode of SUPER SAINTS on Padre Pio, and again, Jack and Penny Lord (“Lord”) say that their videos, such as on Padre Pio, are useful for evangelization. I don’t follow that logic, but I’m not suprised that people are looking for such sensationalism to get them interested in a system of religion.

I wish you had seen the network’s presentation at 5 a.m. this morning on St. Padre Pio whom we honor this week. The special presentation aired testimonies from those who gave witness in his process for canonization. Particularly interesting and edifying was the statement from an Anglican woman who was crippled many years from a debilitating ulcer on her foot.

She spoke of a man who came to her and asked if he could touch her back in prayer. As he prayed, she said the pain was almost more than she could bear and asked him to stop. When he ceased his prayer, he directed her in the name of Jesus to stand up and walk. Surprisingly, she was able to do so. The man left, and she had no idea who he was until one day she came across a photo of Padre Pio and recognized him as the visitor who prayed for her healing, though he was already dead.

This may not be particularly noteworthy to some of you, since St. Pio was instrumental in many, many healings. But the part that caused me to rejoice in God was that she was Anglican. The narrator asked if she had converted afterwards to Catholicism. No, she said. I am still Anglican.

It speaks to me of the awesome mercy of God, who knows no favorites, and ministers to jew and gentile alike - not just Catholics. I remembered seeing some controversial threads about ecumenism, that those outside the faith are less worthy of God’s attention or love, somehow. This warmed my heart to realize a truth I’ve always known to be true from the gospels - especially the parable of the Good Samaritan. God’s love is without measure, and He hears the cry of the poor!

We need to proclaim His mercy similarly through our own deeds and compassion!

I don’t mean to be nitpicky but the first quote was from Crumpy, not me. I think it’s great when EWTN or anywhere else does shows on Saints like Padre Pio.

I also heard that Padre Pio had the gift of conversion and a hard core Freemason met him and within a couple of hours of talking to him the man had converted to Catholicism.

And I do agree that a Saint can do a miracle for someone such as the lady who was an Anglican and that is good. However, may hope and prayer for her would be that she would eventually become Catholic.

 

[Joysong]

Hello Brennan,

Oops! I apologize, for I now see that the quote was Crumpy’s, and that you were simply requoting him.

And I do agree that a Saint can do a miracle for someone such as the lady who was an Anglican and that is good. However, may hope and prayer for her would be that she would eventually become Catholic.

Somehow I wonder whether or not she eventually did change faiths? The presentation was not focused on her, but on St. Pio’s intervention in her illness which was used in his cause for sainthood. She did admit that she had an intense devotion to him afterwards, and I think as such, she would be one of his spiritual children who would be specially under his patronage. I wish we knew the outcome! Interesting!

 

[maryj]

No.

I’ve heard bits and snatches of programs on EWTN.

OK. This nun had some visions or ideas or something. Her confessor told her to write it all down. She did. What a lucky break. Her vision was nothing less than Jesus, Himself. telling her about an image and something.

That’s pretty thin, I admit. Even my mother has had an image of divine mercy Jesus on her bedroom wall – forever, it seems.

Ho hum. It’s not a Middle Eastern Jewish Jesus, it’s a white-skinned european-type Jesus. Not very convincing.

---

It’s an aside: I don’t know what “for the sake of his sorrowful passion” means? Why are we asking that of God the Father? Hasn’t He done that already?

More generally: isn’t this yet-another attempt to turn a private revelation into a “message for the world”? Again, the Church itself says that even if “approved” private revelation does not carry a burden of belief for a Catholic.

It is and always will be a second-class, take it or leave it, form of piety. And, EWTN is relentlessly pushing it our faces.

Gosh. Wait til Mother Angelica passes. Get the crying towel ready. I’m sure that the ink has long been dry on the paperwork for her canonization. It’s probably all stacked up down there in Irondale.

So knowing basically nothing of this devotion, don’t you think that your being a little harsh? Just asking.

 

[4HisChurch]

What I mean is, didn’t Jesus instruct Sr Faustina, to tell the world about her visions and about the devotion to the Divine Mercy?

Jim

Oh, yeah, definitely.

 

[Crumpy]

Actually, Jesus told Sr Faustina, about his divine mercy and how he would poured out his mercy on the cross. He gave Sr. Faustina a devotion to follow, and to bring to the world. The apparition was not private revelation, but revelation for the entire world. …

Jim

With all respect, St. Faustina’s vision was totally a private revelation. Public or General Revelation ended with the apostolic age.

Your interpretation is exactly my point, that people want to make private revelation into public revelation. So, that’s blurring the distinction between the two, which are totally different things. (See the Nov 2000 edition of This Rock magazine for Jimmy Akins discussion of Card. Ratzinger’s remarks.)

Uncharitably, one of the posters said that EWTN doesn’t qualify its discussions of such things like St. Faustina’s diary because they know the viewers “are not morons.”

I don’t think they are, either, but one needn’t be a “moron” to be confused about a priest preaching about Jesus in the gospel and Jesus alleged discourse to St. Faustina. The Holy Catholic Church requires belief in the gospel but does not mandate belief and acceptance of private revelation. As some have noted, private revelations are “binding” on the person who receives them, but only that person.

 

[Crumpy]

So knowing basically nothing of this devotion, don’t you think that your being a little harsh? Just asking.

I think the posts prove my point that there’s a lot of confusion about private revelation, what church “approval” means, and whether they become binding in faith. Some posters know that there is no requirement for belief, because as Card. Ratzinger says, the Church feels that even if these are from God, God has not revealed these things in such a way causes them to be bound in faith.

I am not being harsh, but frank, about the fact that Catholics are not obligated to believe in the private revelation of St. Faustina.

The saints may have been deeply inspired by the Gospel in many ways, and that is the most important thing to me. I think it’s wonderful to hear about that.

But, I am dubious about any heavenly being supposedly appearing to anybody. It always turns out to be devout Catholics. It’s sadly never like to Charles Manson or some other notorious character who then has a life-changing experience. We never hear that Mary has appeared to some Imam in the middle east for example, causing him to change his faith.

The Church may “approve” these apparitions and revelations for piety, but it does not make them binding on anybody except the person who has received them. I think it’s utterly fantastic to claim that Jesus has appeared to somebody and given a message for the world. The Church does not require belief in such.

If you read Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth, there’s so much inspiration and truth about Jesus, that I can’t imagine that anybody needs anything else.

The Bible is called “the greatest story ever told” and I don’t think that will ever be upstaged until Christ returns.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

With all respect, St. Faustina’s vision was totally a private revelation. Public or General Revelation ended with the apostolic age.

Your interpretation is exactly my point, that people want to make private revelation into public revelation. So, that’s blurring the distinction between the two, which are totally different things. (See the Nov 2000 edition of This Rock magazine for Jimmy Akins discussion of Card. Ratzinger’s remarks.)

Uncharitably, one of the posters said that EWTN doesn’t qualify its discussions of such things like St. Faustina’s diary because they know the viewers “are not morons.”

I don’t think they are, either, but one needn’t be a “moron” to be confused about a priest preaching about Jesus in the gospel and Jesus alleged discourse to St. Faustina. The Holy Catholic Church requires belief in the gospel but does not mandate belief and acceptance of private revelation. As some have noted, private revelations are “binding” on the person who receives them, but only that person.

I am the one who said EWTN viewers are not morons. No one is trying to make private revelation into public revelation. Catholics who watch EWTN are pretty well aware that public Revelation ended with the Apostolic age. I don’t think making the distinction is really all that difficult. And actually, private revelation can and often does bolster public revelation even if they are distinct. They are not in competition with each other.

An example would be “The Fire of Divine Love” by St. Catherine of Genoa. Not public revelation, but it does bolster the doctrine of Purgatory. Although these things are private revelation, that doesn’t mean that God intends them only for the one receiving the revelation. God often shares insights or private revelation for a reason. Just because they don’t have to be believed by the faithful does not mean they should not be shared with the faithful.

 

[Joysong]

To insure that some of our readers do not disregard the private revelation of St. Faustina as immaterial, I think it would be good to read this declaration:

In a decree dated 23 May 2000, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments stated that “throughout the world the Second Sunday of Easter will receive the name Divine Mercy Sunday, a perennial invitation to the Christian world to face, with confidence in divine benevolence, the difficulties and trials that mankind will experience in the years to come.” These papal acts represent the highest endorsement that the Church can give to a private revelation, an act of papal infallibility proclaiming the certain sanctity of the mystic, and the granting of a universal feast, as requested by Our Lord to St. Faustina.
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

I agree with Crumpy that many private revelations are not binding upon the faithful to give their assent that it is divine truth. In the above matter, though, when the Church gives endorsement and institutes a universal feast, it no longer falls to our personal choice whether or not to celebrate it on that Sunday, even though one may choose not to retain a personal private devotion with respect to it.

 

[TOP]

I think what is being blurred here is the distinctions between public, private revelation and the propagation of a private devotion approved by the Church. Tim

 

[bridie]

Someone gave me a copy of St Faustinas Diary years ago . I read only a few chapters before dismissing it as rubbish.
LIstening about her on EWTN Ive stared to reread it with a new openness and find now so much there for us to learn from, especially about humility. Mary DID appear at Fatima, I believe the 3000 people that saw her, Jesus can also appear to whome He pleases with a message for our good. I can imagine the torment St Faustina was in . I certainly wouldnt want Jesus appearing to me to help Him in that way.

 

[Teelynn]

Someone gave me a copy of St Faustinas Diary years ago . I read only a few chapters before dismissing it as rubbish.
LIstening about her on EWTN Ive stared to reread it with a new openness and find now so much there for us to learn from, especially about humility. Mary DID appear at Fatima, I believe the 3000 people that saw her, Jesus can also appear to whome He pleases with a message for our good. I can imagine the torment St Faustina was in . I certainly wouldnt want Jesus appearing to me to help Him in that way.

That makes 2 of us. Forgive me Lord, but PLEASE DON’T DO THAT TO ME!!!

 

[maryj]

I think the posts prove my point that there’s a lot of confusion about private revelation, what church “approval” means, and whether they become binding in faith. Some posters know that there is no requirement for belief, because as Card. Ratzinger says, the Church feels that even if these are from God, God has not revealed these things in such a way causes them to be bound in faith.

I am not being harsh, but frank, about the fact that Catholics are not obligated to believe in the private revelation of St. Faustina.

The saints may have been deeply inspired by the Gospel in many ways, and that is the most important thing to me. I think it’s wonderful to hear about that.

But, I am dubious about any heavenly being supposedly appearing to anybody. It always turns out to be devout Catholics. It’s sadly never like to Charles Manson or some other notorious character who then has a life-changing experience. We never hear that Mary has appeared to some Imam in the middle east for example, causing him to change his faith.

The Church may “approve” these apparitions and revelations for piety, but it does not make them binding on anybody except the person who has received them. I think it’s utterly fantastic to claim that Jesus has appeared to somebody and given a message for the world. The Church does not require belief in such.

If you read Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth, there’s so much inspiration and truth about Jesus, that I can’t imagine that anybody needs anything else.

The Bible is called “the greatest story ever told” and I don’t think that will ever be upstaged until Christ returns.

I’ll agree with you that there is confusion among some catholics on private revelation. I myself was one of them at a point in my life. and yet through prayer, and study I have learned much. But crumpy you must also agree that the church has not forbidden us to have beliefs in such things as the divine mercy message from Jesus through St. Faustina. You have read Pope Benedict’s book and have found all you need to know about Jesus, inspirational it is, does that mean that others do not or can not find inspiration in other things such as the Divine Mercy? What’s good for the goose isn’t necessarily good for the gander. I’m fairly certain that God calls in so many different ways, so many ways that we could not ever fathom them. What I’m saying to you is that you have openly admitted that you have very little knowledge of what the Divine Mercy is about, or for that matter who Saint Faustina is, and that’s O.K., but if your going to discuss it maybe you should have the facts. God speaks to me everyday if I am in tune to His voice, I pray each morning that I may be able to hear. God Bless.

 

[Rebelecka]

Private revelations can be helpful to others. All of us have different personalities. God gave us those personalities. I believe that Our Lord also has given to us the opportunity to find a way to privately worship Him that “fits” our personalities. (The Mass and Divine Office are forms of public worship) I think that all private revelation that is not contradictory of Church doctrine is given to help those of us who need help. It is not to supplant the Magisterium, nor do people have to “believe” it or use it. But it isn’t charitable to denounce it as “rubbish” or intimating that all the private revelations are imaginings of the overly-devout.

BTW, you might wish to check out the apparitions in Uganda where a young man who was an animist (I think, it’s been awhile for me) saw and was converted. It has happened that non-Christians have “seen” an apparition and become Christians.

Those private revelations that are accepted by the Church mean that there is nothing contrary to the official Church Teachings.

 

[sedix]

I am dubious about any heavenly being supposedly appearing to anybody. It always turns out to be devout Catholics. It’s sadly never like to Charles Manson or some other notorious character who then has a life-changing experience. We never hear that Mary has appeared to some Imam in the middle east for example, causing him to change his faith.

Not true. See for instance the following story of Ratisbonne, a Jewish banker:

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/BVM/ratisbonne.html

 

[sedix]

I am dubious about any heavenly being supposedly appearing to anybody. It always turns out to be devout Catholics. It’s sadly never like to Charles Manson or some other notorious character who then has a life-changing experience. We never hear that Mary has appeared to some Imam in the middle east for example, causing him to change his faith.

See also the conversion story of Cornacchiola, the atheist who planned to kill the Pope

unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TreFontane.html

True, we are not bound to believe these apparitions, but they appear to be very fruitful to many, just like the apparition to St. Paul

 

[marymol]

St. Maria Goretti - appeared to her killer Alessandro who had refused to repent for years , in jail , of his crime of stabbing her to death ; she appeared to him with 14 lillies ( # of times he had stabbed her ) ; he was able to repent and be at her canonisation !

As to why it does not happen more often …may be the incident of Lazarus and the rich man - how for some it still would not make a diffrence …

and the many who are called to believe without seeing …

The tremendous responsibilty that come with such special graces - like even the little children- Bl. Jacinta and Francisco , in Fatima, who had the special grace to see the effects of sin ( hell ) ; they were asked to ( and ardently responded ) to say many rosaries for conversion of sinners .

Our Father knows - to provide !

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The private revelations to Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich were an insight into the personna of the Blessed Mother. Through Anne Catherine’s descriptions of events going back the the Nativity fills in the many “blank spaces” that are not written in the Gospels.

It is more a storybook, (but true) look into the life of the Holy Family in such great detail. I would love to see Mel Gibson tackle the Nativity and early years of the Son of God through the private revelations of ACE. They have great spiritual value and inspiration.

 

[Linda_Marie]

We never hear that Mary has appeared to some Imam in the middle east for example, causing him to change his faith.

From 1968 to 1971, Our Lady appeared above a church in Zeitoun, Egypt, for everyone to see. Miraculous healings and a resurgence of faith resulted, with Muslims and Christians praying together peacefully. These apparitions were even broadcast live on Egyptian television. Zeitoun has been approved by the Coptic Orthodox Church and later by the Roman Catholic Church.

theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Zeitoun.htm
the story in an online booklet “When Millions saw Mary”:
zeitun-eg.org/pg0001.htm
for videos:
zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

 

[Crumpy]

What I mean is, didn’t Jesus instruct Sr Faustina, to tell the world about her visions and about the devotion to the Divine Mercy?

Jim

You’re “begging the question.” You’re assuming that Jesus did appear to Sr. Faustina, in the first place. And, then, you’re illustrating my point better than I did.

If you do a search on “private revelation” in the THIS ROCK section of this website, there is an article by Jimmy Akin quoting Cardinal Ratzinger. Quite specifically, Ratzinger says that public and private revelation are two different things, altogether.

If the Lord had wanted this information to be part of public revelation, then the Lord could have put it there. As this is not the case, and the Church does not require belief. Now, it’s another thing to talk about God’s mercy.

This illustrates my point again, about the sensationalism of the “for the world” type revelations.

And, are you familiar enough with scripture, to know that we are not supposed to go looking for Jesus in this place or that place? Jesus will return, once and for all, at the end of time.

Ratzinger and Akin (one or the other) point out that a private revelation CAN NEVER be used to extend or supplement public revelation. It can never be held higher than the public revelation in scripture.

Somehow, I got on the mailing list for the Fatima Crusader. And, the priest that runs that is always criticizing the Vatican for not revealing the entire third secret of Fatima. Blah, blah, blah, on and on, Oh, God, give us the third secret. Gee, as things go, does anybody remember the first two “secrets”?

It’s just such a sideshow, a spectacle, almost a blasphemy. We don’t NEED any private revelation for our salvation. We have the public revelation of scripture.

See what I mean? If we “need” Fatima, then too bad, eighteen centuries of Christians missed it.

Why is anybody trying to force us to believe this, when there is only one name under heaven by which we are saved, Jesus Christ?

There are just weak, gullible people who WANT to believe all this, and so they spend their money on it.

There was one show about Padre Pio on EWTN some time ago, with Fr. Bing, I think it was. He was saying all these one-liners about Padre Pio. It was a show during the middle of the night. He woke me right up, because he said that Padre Pio used to take children to his “cell” to give them candy. What? He wouldn’t get away with that today in the U.S., I hope. Why would a monk have candy in his cell, anyway? And, how much could he possibly have, to take children there to give them some? Bing’s statement came and went so fast. I’ve never seen that show on TV again (after I complained about it). That stuff didn’t make sense, and who cares anyway?