Ex Jehovah's Witness here...

[GungHo]

Fine cigars and 18-year-old scotch are to be enjoyed - in moderation, of course.

Definitley in moderation. You know at one time I was blessed with having my own business and making a lot of money… The funny thing is that once you know what the good stuff tastes like; it’s hard to go back to the “hootch.” And that applies to the cigars too. So, I don’t even keep any liquor or smokes on hand. (Well, there is the bottle of Macallan that was a gift.) But when I go camping, I always make sure to get a bottle of the good stuff, and a few fine cigars to go with them. They have a really good calming effect on me, and take me back to the days of sitting on my Grand Pappy’s lap.

 

[GungHo]

He was expressing this belief via email with some internet friends of his. His JW wife discovered his emails and printed them off their home computer and showed them to the elders of the local congregation.

Poor guy. Back when I cared if I got caught, all my “sensitive” files were kept under PGP military grade encryption. If nothing else the JW’s made me a pro at OpSec and ComSec.

 

[GungHo]

Dunno about the cigar though, I don’t smoke.

Does smoking a 20 dollar cigar two or three times a year qualify as smoking? Hmmmm…I hope not, because I don’t smoke either.

 

[GungHo]

I personally know some; and they are very nice law abiding people.

Well…I personally still know a lot, and most of them ARE very nice law abiding people. This however does not change anything. Heck (BTW, can’t say that if your a good little JW) I bet the Nazi death camp workers were thought very highly of in their communities.

My point remains the same. Yes, most JW’s you meet will be very nice and honest. And if you show interest even more so as they “love bomb” you. If you are not careful, you will then be sucked farther and farther into the group. After a few years, all your friends, family and the people you work for will probably be JW’s. THEN see what happens if you decide that you don’t agree with them on ANYTHING.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

“Prayer is free in the Bible”

That is an oversimplification and hence, false.

The Old Testament is filled with examples of people tithing to support the temple worship, bringing animal sacrifices which once offered, they (the bringer) also shared in. But you had to do your part.

The Mass is not just a prayer, though it is a prayer.
It is a making present on the altar, the sacrifice of Calvary.
It requires bread, wine, vessels worthy of the body and blood of Christ, electricity to run the Church while the Mass is being celebrated, etc etc etc. It is only fitting and proper that those who can afford to do so offer a modest offering (stipend) to have a special Mass offered for their specific intention or loved one. $15 is a bit high, I usually offer $5 to $10, and we don’t do it every day, so it’s not like its a burden putting anybody in the poor-house. And prayer is free in the Catholic Church too. You are perfectly free to pray for free at any time as a Catholic, and your fellow Catholics will pray for you - for free - as well. But the value of our prayers is not FREE. It cost Jesus Christ his life in a bloody death on the cross which makes our prayers effectual.

Nothing in life is absolutely free. SOMEBODY pays.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[Mordocai]

Even to think a thought is it to pay your time in order to have the thought thought

I say that jokingly.
But in reality, maybe we should get back to focusing on JW’S.

I want to know how they interpet the passage in John 20 where Jesus breathes on the Apostles and gives them the Spirit and the power to forgive sins.
To a JW, what does that mean?

 

[Nan_S]

But in reality, maybe we should get back to focusing on JW’S.

I want to know how they interpet the passage in John 20 where Jesus breathes on the Apostles and gives them the Spirit and the power to forgive sins.
To a JW, what does that mean?

If they’re anything like a certain Assemblies of God ministerial student I once knew, they ignore the passage completely.

Confident in his instructors, he waved his much-highlighted bible at me and challenged me to prove to him that Jesus gave anyone the power to forgive sins. I pointed him directly to the specific verses, noticing that everything before them was highlighted and everything after them was highlighted. He read the verses, probably for the first time, then quietly said, “I wonder why they never mentioned that to us.”

Nan

 

[RNRobert]

If they’re anything like a certain Assemblies of God ministerial student I once knew, they ignore the passage completely.

Confident in his instructors, he waved his much-highlighted bible at me and challenged me to prove to him that Jesus gave anyone the power to forgive sins. I pointed him directly to the specific verses, noticing that everything before them was highlighted and everything after them was highlighted. He read the verses, probably for the first time, then quietly said, “I wonder why they never mentioned that to us.”

Nan

Same thing for the Sacrament of the Sick. James tells us that if we are sick, we are to call the elders of the church and have them anoint us with oil. How many “Bible Churches” actually practice that?

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Protestant101
That’s no worse than Catholics and many Protestants being “happy” when someone dies, because “they went to heaven.”

From this post and from a few of your others, it is quite evident that you absolutely nothing about The One Holy Catholic Faith.
If you insist on telling us about our own Religion, I would suggest you research it first.

 

[Mordocai]

Well I mean, i saw on another thread that it’s somehow in the greek talking about if a sin is forgiven by God, you must ratify it. and the same if unforgiven.
but that begs the question, who knows but God and the person if it was forgiven or not?

Anyway… did he really say that? “I wonder why they never told us about that” ?

wow…

 

[Nan_S]

Well I mean, i saw on another thread that it’s somehow in the greek talking about if a sin is forgiven by God, you must ratify it. and the same if unforgiven.
but that begs the question, who knows but God and the person if it was forgiven or not?

Anyway… did he really say that? “I wonder why they never told us about that” ?

wow…

Yes, that’s exactly what my friend, the Assemblies of God ministerial student, said when I showed him the verses where Jesus breathes on the disciples and gives them the power to forgive or retain sin.

Over the years I’ve checked a variety of bibles in several languages and I’ve yet to see where any of them translate Jn 20:22-23 as ratifying what God has already done. Quite the opposite; in every translation the disciples are directed to forgive or retain and God will accept it. Suggesting that the verses are misinterpreted and God only gave them power to discern and ratify His judgment is a common Protestant anti-Catholic spin.

That was the purpose for God breathing on the disciples - to endow them with a specific power of God, the power to forgive sin. Only one other instance exists in all of scripture where God breathed on man - when He breathed on Adam and Adam became a living being with an immortal soul.

Nan

 

[zerinus]

Yes, that’s exactly what my friend, the Assemblies of God ministerial student, said when I showed him the verses where Jesus breathes on the disciples and gives them the power to forgive or retain sin.

Over the years I’ve checked a variety of bibles in several languages and I’ve yet to see where any of them translate Jn 20:22-23 as ratifying what God has already done. Quite the opposite; in every translation the disciples are directed to forgive or retain and God will accept it. Suggesting that the verses are misinterpreted and God only gave them power to discern and ratify His judgment is a common Protestant anti-Catholic spin.

That was the purpose for God breathing on the disciples - to endow them with a specific power of God, the power to forgive sin. Only one other instance exists in all of scripture where God breathed on man - when He breathed on Adam and Adam became a living being with an immortal soul.

Nan

Interesting discussion. Jesus also gave Peter the power to “bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19). How does the Pope, or the Catholic Church, exercise that power today?

zerinus

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Interesting discussion. Jesus also gave Peter the power to “bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19). How does the Pope, or the Catholic Church, exercise that power today?

zerinus

Hey everybody! I found Zerinus! He’s hiding over here near the bottom of the “Non-Catholic Religions” thread !

The power, my peripatetic friend, was given to the Apostles here (through Peter) and later at Pentacost in Acts. They in turn have passed it along to all bishops (and the Pope being the Bishop of Rome has it too).

Thus, we have statements on what is christian baptism (not Mormon, I’m afraid), valid marriage (see Pope Leo XII in 1880 on ‘invalid polygamy of the sect called Mormon’), what are sacraments and sacramentals, what Christians must believe.

This is why no one can set up shop for him or herself and with a Bible in hand (or Koran, or Book of Mormon, or Book of Uranchi, or L. Ron Hubbard and his scifi stuff) and claim to be the Christian Church.

Of course, being Mormon, you think this means that Peter wrote a letter and buried it in New York for Joseph Smith to uncover and show 1800 years later that LDS is the one, true church.

(I answered for you with your pat answer. You’re welcome.)

 

[Nan_S]

Interesting discussion. Jesus also gave Peter the power to “bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19). How does the Pope, or the Catholic Church, exercise that power today?

zerinus

The Catholic church exercises the power of binding and loosing through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

You can read about it here: The Forgiveness of Sins

Welcome to the thread, Z. I won’t be engaging in a Catholic vs. Mormon debate here, as we are trying to address the issues of concern to an ex-JW investigating the Catholic church. Forgiveness of sin is very pertinent to the ex-JW mindset, particularly because many (not all) JW congregations seem to deal with sin in their midst by disfellowshipping the guilty.

Nan

 

[zerinus]

The Catholic church exercises the power of binding and loosing through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

You can read about it here: The Forgiveness of Sins

Welcome to the thread, Z. I won’t be engaging in a Catholic vs. Mormon debate here, as we are trying to address the issues of concern to an ex-JW investigating the Catholic church.

Thank you Nan. That would make an interesting Catholic vs. Mormonism debate. Our views about that are different from yours; and the article you had linked to is interesting in more ways than one from the LDS point of view.

Forgiveness of sin is very pertinent to the ex-JW mindset, particularly because many (not all) JW congregations seem to deal with sin in their midst by disfellowshipping the guilty.

I agree. Sin is a sensitive issue that needs to be dealt with compassionately and with care, especially if the sinner shows signs of being genuinely penitent.

zerinus

 

[Protestant101]

I know Adventists do not accept new members who refuse to conform to Adventist standards.

People who already are Catholic, are not disfellowshipped for non attendance, however, willfully missing mass without good reason requires a person to receive the sacrament of reconciliation before returning to communion.

Some persons would rather blame the Church than take responsibility for their own actions and decisions.
MarysRoses

Yes, you are correct re Adventists and their acceptance of new members. But the level of expectation may differ from one area to another. There is some flexibility to leave some things like this in the hands of local congregations.

You are also correct re catholics not being disfellowshipped for non-attendance. I used the wrong word there. You corrected it by relating how members/prospective members are required to “receive” the sacrament of reconciliation.

This is the level of control factor I was referring to with my comments about the catholic Church.

My major point has simply been that although JWs do have some whacky beliefs, and although we can all point to some instance of innapropriate “control” measures from the denomination; I think that we can likely find the same kind of “controls” in both of our respective denominations. Sometimes, it is appropriate to exercise this control; and other times, we know all to well it is not.

I see it as unfair to characterize or to demonize an entire denomination/religion just because of those individuals within the group who have a bad experience with same. Fair is fair, and not all JWs would fit the descriptions being touted here. I know - some do; but I am trying to urge some restraint here in blanket labelling of the whole group for the fault of only a segment of them.

 

[GungHo]

My major point has simply been that although JWs do have some whacky beliefs, and although we can all point to some instance of innapropriate “control” measures from the denomination; I think that we can likely find the same kind of “controls” in both of our respective denominations.

No way, no how. JW parents are taught they cannot talk to, nor eat with their DF’ed children. The bottom line is the JW’s break up families, and for the most part the Catholic Church does not. AND the above is just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to their high control aspects.

 

[GungHo]

I see it as unfair to characterize or to demonize an entire denomination/religion just because of those individuals within the group who have a bad experience with same.

A few individuals? It is FAR more than just a few. BTW, I think the blood issue alone is enough to “demonize” them. I wonder how many innocent kids have died because their parents would not let them have a lifesaving blood transfusion.

 

[Protestant101]

No way, no how. JW parents are taught they cannot talk to, nor eat with their DF’ed children. The bottom line is the JW’s break up families, and for the most part the Catholic Church does not. AND the above is just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to their high control aspects.

Well; I know personally JW parents who are NOT taught this. It is like many other denominations and their misunderstandings re disfellowshipping. The breaking up families charge is an old over-worked cliche used against many religions. Jesus did say:

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Obviously, differing religious belief is going to bring divisions. That is not in and of itself a sin, nor is it reason to defame an entire denomination/faith group over. i could say that Catholics break up families, because of some catholics, who used to be Adventists, and the resulting family rifts; but I know that is not official catholic teaching - to break up families, and I know that Catholics are taught to uphold the family in many ways; even when they used to be Adventists; and have converted to Catholicism, I cannot see them as deliberately “breaking up families.”.

The blood issue is also magnified way out of proportion-especially by ex-JWs, who of course are going to place an extra emphasis on anything negative that they perceive. JWs actually do not do this carelessly, but in consultation with well-trained physicians who look at other medically acceptable practices, in lieu of blood transfusions. I know a JW couple who just had a baby; and there was great concern re the possible need for transfusion. But there was nothing unethical or dangerous happening there; they were looking to medical authorities for alternative advice, in case it was needed.

I do agree that JWs misunderstand Lev.17:11 and other related texts; but again; I cannot condone anyone proscribing the entire group, because some get carried away and do something stupid or dangerous with this belief about blood.

As a person who has had many blood transfusions; I personally appreciate knowing about all the alternatives that I could inquire about should I ever need one again. I also have medical/nursing training; and so have been worried about the very serious risks associated with blood transfusions; which I could still start to suffer from - even now.

When I was burned beyond recognition in a house fire; I guess I would have been in equally serious trouble if I had been a Jew, and they wanted to do life-saving grafts of pigskin onto my body?

 

[GungHo]

Well; I know personally JW parents who are NOT taught this.

ATTENTION…this fellow does NOT know what he is talking about. This is a UNIVERSAL teaching of the JW’s. They are not to talk to their children unless it is “business”, and they are NOT to eat with them if they are not minors living under their roof. And if you are talk to or eat with a JW that is NOT a family member, you can be DF’ed for it.