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GungHo
Guest
Some get carried away? Hmmmm…If you are a JW, and you take or give blood, you get DF’ed. It is just that simple.
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Protestant101
Guest
Ok. You want to go this route, then lets look at their official writings on the subject. Please show us where, book and page number we can find this teaching EXACTLY as you say it is.
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jschwehm
Guest
Hi:
Check out the following link:
watchtower.org/library/w/1988/4/15/article_01.htm
Below is a quote from the above link:
Below is a quote from the November 15th 1952 Watchtower page 703-704:
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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jschwehm
Guest
I thought you guys might find the following comments made by the Watchtower Society on Blood and Blood transfusions interesting:
Need more info? Visit www.ajwrb.org
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
The above sent the JWs into a frenzy…writing letters to companies demanding to know if there was blood in their dogfood or plant fertilizer…I remember this one JW lady in my Kingdom Hall who used to torment the local butcher demanding to know how his meat was being bled.
Yep, take blood from a criminal and become a criminal…These are really great people to take medical advice from.
Need more info? Visit www.ajwrb.org
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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Protestant101
Guest
Unfortunately, Jeff, none of your quotes disprove what I said. Some of the JWs do practice sensible things with their beliefs about blood use. They are no different than Jews who want “kosher” stuff that has been bled. You talk about JWs as if they are all some kind of freaks for this, when there are a number of other groups who do the same. Do you ostrasize these other groups like this? No. You talk as though you are some kind of expert on them; just because you used to be one? It’s not hard to see from your website that you have some pretty outlandish beliefs of your own. Your comments about Jehovah’s witness show much bias based on your own experience with them. But you cannot make that everyone else’s experience. Actually, the way you talk about them shows you never did understand them properly.
I don’t mind someone trying honestly to discern right from wrong doctrine or ideas; but when you want to go at the people themselves, and characterize them the way “ministries” like your’s does, how can you expect to ever convince large numbers of them to follow such a legacy of malice?
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jschwehm
Guest
David, my friend, I am an expert on the JWs. I understand them extremely well. I was raised in it and even spent time as a full-time evangelizer for them and as a volunteer at their World Headquarters. I was a JW for over 25 years.
I have read much of their older literature and have studied the history of their shunning and blood doctrines as they have developed over time. Their leadership is guilty of, at best, academic incompetence and, at worst, academic dishonesty. It really is hard to tell which at times.
You have been taken in by them. I know that this happens rather easily because the average JW is very well-meaning, nice, but extremely mislead. Most JWs have no idea about the history of their religious organization and their false prophecies, their ties to the occult, and the basis for their crazy views on science and medicine. And, most people become JWs because they are looking for meaning in their lives and sincerely want a relationship with Almighty God but what they get instead is the tyranny of the leadership of the Watchtower Society and not the gentle yoke of Christ Jesus.
My website is there not out of malice or hate but out of love and concern for my JW brothers and sisters many of whom are my own blood relatives who have been seriously mislead.
I have no problem with people wishing to eat kosher. However, I do have problems with a religious organization placing more emphasis a mere symbol of life (blood) than on life itself. Even Orthodox Judaism does not forbid blood tranfusions to save lives and no medical doctor will tell you that receiving a blood transfusion is the equivalent of eating blood as the JWs claim.
If you want to know the full story on blood visit The Associated Jehovah’s Witness for Reform on Blood. Much of their research will help anyone who wants to know more about blood use in medicine. And many of the people who have contributed to this website are still active JWs elders but live out of fear due to the shunning doctrine. Here is the link www.ajwrb.org
Furthermore, as someone who has seen how the JW practice of disfellowshipping and shunning destroy families first hand, I know from your contact with JWs, prior to joining them, that you find this practice, as described by former JWs, hard to believe. However, those same nice JWs that you know, many of them, will turn on their friends and family members in a heartbeat if they are disfellowshipped. I know. I have seen it first hand.
When I was a JW, many very close friends of my family were disfellowshipped over the years. I can remember this one man who was disfellowshipped and he and his family were very close to ours. For us to go visit HIS home, so that I could play with his sons, he would have to leave his house and remain out of sight. This was HIS home!!!
My own brother was hauled before the kangaroo court of the JWs and treated like dirt and not like a Christian brother in need of help.
I know of individuals whose parents have not spoken with their disfellowshipped kids for years. One of my former JW friends actually saw his own mother for the first time in two years at a local hardware store and his own mother, who is a devout JW, did not even recognize him. By the way, the reason for my friend’s disfellowshipment was because he rejected the Watchtower’s teachings on Blood Transfusions and told some friends of his about his doubts. Check out his story at the link below: ajwrb.org/members/wayne.shtml
(By the way, this is NOT unique. This happens pretty often in congregations of JWs all over the world.)
I realize that in this day and age you might find this hard to believe but it happens and I have seen it with my own eyes. And watched it happen in my own family. It is one of the worst forms of spiritual abuse and the JWs have codified this as part of their religious practice.
I realize this is probably falling on deaf ears but please stay away from the JWs.
You will be in my prayers.
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
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Protestant101
Guest
Well, to be honest; I am aware of these concerns you mention, and I know it does happen in varying degrees. My point is is that we need to be much more careful in how we talk about them publically; as we will just isolate them further by talking about then in such generalized condemning tones. I won’t do it in this thread, as it is likely a different topic; but it is not hard to find all the same kinds of “shunning” and other objectionable practices by Catholics, or, for that matter, by Seventh-day Adventists.
The last time I had some JW elders in my house to do a “study” they ran out the door with their tail between their legs. It wasn’t because I said any of this kind of stuff about them. It was because **I turned in their own NWT of the Bible **to talk about Eph.2:8-9. You don’t need anti-JW books or websites. You can just use their own Bible, plus the NIV or KJV which many of them will accept.
So I know from personal experience that it is possible to address their ideas/doctrines, without publically proscribing them all as a bunch of demons or maniacs. We all have similar faults in our own churches.
This “Cult Intervention With Mary Alice” stuff is really wild! it would be very interesting to look into all the real ideas underlying all that. And then talk about “cult” or “mind control” or “occult.”
The last time I had some JW elders in my house to do a “study” they ran out the door with their tail between their legs. It wasn’t because I said any of this kind of stuff about them. It was because **I turned in their own NWT of the Bible **to talk about Eph.2:8-9. You don’t need anti-JW books or websites. You can just use their own Bible, plus the NIV or KJV which many of them will accept.
So I know from personal experience that it is possible to address their ideas/doctrines, without publically proscribing them all as a bunch of demons or maniacs. We all have similar faults in our own churches.
This “Cult Intervention With Mary Alice” stuff is really wild! it would be very interesting to look into all the real ideas underlying all that. And then talk about “cult” or “mind control” or “occult.”
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GungHo
Guest
You just don’t seem to get it. By your own admission, you have only “studied” with the JW’s. You have only been exposed to the good, and not the high control aspects. That comes after you have been baptized.
And yes, some JW’s are not “fanatics” and do much as they please. BUT if they are caught, they risk losing almost everything, incuding their family. As for me, for the last 15 years I was on the inside, I did pretty much as I pleased. But I felt like I was ALWAYS being watched. Since at the time I did not want to risk being DF’ed, I had to be VERY careful when I … voted, gave blood, came to forums like this, read books like Crisis of Conscience, spoke my mind, and many other things. Of course I was NOT allowed to even question doctrine. All of the above could have gotten my DF’ed…along with non JW approved sex with my wife.
I wonder how many Catholics feel the need to have areas on their hard drives that are encrypted? …When all they contain are links to forums such as this, JW research, and email critical of the Society.
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GungHo
Guest
Thanks for the back-up Jeff. I get so tired of trying to explain what has happened to me and many others, and the all of the false doctrine of this high control group.
And I may not be an expert like you, but I know what you say is true. After all, when you are raised as a JW, and spend more than 40 years in the Tower, you tend to see a lot of what they don’t want you to see.
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Marilena
Guest
Protestant,
you do not know Jeff. what he said is true, he is an expert.
would you also say the exact same thing of ray franz?
no one is trying to “demonize” witnesses, or call “maniacs”. i certainly am not. nor has jeff.
you have to be on the inside before you can understand the dynamics of the organization. witnesses are terrorized into not taking blood. they are threatened with eternal damnation if they dare to take blood. you likely know this, and have been told this.
you can be disfellowshipped for taking blood, you can be disfellowshipped for associating with non believers if you are asked to quit and you refuse to quit. you will be automatically disfellowshipped and branded an apostate if you speak out against the society and read or promote material that is in opposition to them.
how do i know? i used to be a jw. you are also told your not allowed to have independent thinking, if you do, you can be disfellowshipped. period. they automatically brand you an apostate for promoting or encouraging non witness material that might shed light or opposes the practices of the society.
period.
the witnesses not in the governing body, the regulars at the hall are very innocent lambs who have been enticed by the wolf in sheeps clothing and that wolf is dangerous to their souls. pray for them, because they desperately need it.
you do not know Jeff. what he said is true, he is an expert.
would you also say the exact same thing of ray franz?
no one is trying to “demonize” witnesses, or call “maniacs”. i certainly am not. nor has jeff.
you have to be on the inside before you can understand the dynamics of the organization. witnesses are terrorized into not taking blood. they are threatened with eternal damnation if they dare to take blood. you likely know this, and have been told this.
you can be disfellowshipped for taking blood, you can be disfellowshipped for associating with non believers if you are asked to quit and you refuse to quit. you will be automatically disfellowshipped and branded an apostate if you speak out against the society and read or promote material that is in opposition to them.
how do i know? i used to be a jw. you are also told your not allowed to have independent thinking, if you do, you can be disfellowshipped. period. they automatically brand you an apostate for promoting or encouraging non witness material that might shed light or opposes the practices of the society.
period.
the witnesses not in the governing body, the regulars at the hall are very innocent lambs who have been enticed by the wolf in sheeps clothing and that wolf is dangerous to their souls. pray for them, because they desperately need it.
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Protestant101
Guest
Ok. I will reply in this one post to the above last two posts.
I can understand you saying that you had some bad experience with the JWs, and that you want to teach others why their doctrines are wrong; but some people here call them “evil” among other similar things; and this is simply not true.
A similar example re “independent thinking” can be found within the catholic church, insofar as Papal authority over what people think and believe. It just isn’t right to say the entire denomination is such and such when in fact they are not. Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong in several key Bible doctrines. But, the general body of their believers are not in fact the way some are depicting here. I have told the Witnesses I know and still discuss with, that I point the finger at their leadership. The WT doesn’t like books like “The Finished Mystery” because they reveal all too clearly some of the leadership’s mis-steps; but lets not fall into the trap of the apologetics cults who demonize them and make it impossible for them to see anything but fighting words. They need to see Jesus. Not the typical fighting words they have become accustomed to.
Some Catholics that have “studied” with me, in trying to convince me of my errant ways and beliefs have been most unpleasant; but the ones who I enjoy the most are not the ones that agree with me the most. They are the ones that show Christ in their words and actions.
I can understand you saying that you had some bad experience with the JWs, and that you want to teach others why their doctrines are wrong; but some people here call them “evil” among other similar things; and this is simply not true.
A similar example re “independent thinking” can be found within the catholic church, insofar as Papal authority over what people think and believe. It just isn’t right to say the entire denomination is such and such when in fact they are not. Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong in several key Bible doctrines. But, the general body of their believers are not in fact the way some are depicting here. I have told the Witnesses I know and still discuss with, that I point the finger at their leadership. The WT doesn’t like books like “The Finished Mystery” because they reveal all too clearly some of the leadership’s mis-steps; but lets not fall into the trap of the apologetics cults who demonize them and make it impossible for them to see anything but fighting words. They need to see Jesus. Not the typical fighting words they have become accustomed to.
Some Catholics that have “studied” with me, in trying to convince me of my errant ways and beliefs have been most unpleasant; but the ones who I enjoy the most are not the ones that agree with me the most. They are the ones that show Christ in their words and actions.
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Marilena
Guest
well spoken!!!
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GungHo
Guest
In exactly which ways? Like I have said, many do tend to go there own way, but if they are called on it, and refuse to submit, they will be DF’ed and cut off from friends and family.
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Protestant101
Guest
is also quite applicable under varying circumstance, with numerous denominations and faith backgrounds; including Roman Catholics.
While this practice, in it’s varying degrees, may be problematic; it cannot be counted as enough to denounce an entire denomination or religious group.
It is better to just say you had a bad experience with them; and then explain from the Bible why a particular doctrine of their’s is wrong. All the sensational allegations and recounting of your bad expereince, cannot and will not make it everyone’s bad experience. When I see some of the wild things people say about JWs, Mormons, etc., I have to really wonder where they get their “stuff” from.
Usually, when a Christian needs to tear down someone else’s “shack of belief,” they will do their utmost to build a palace of truth for their “opponent” to move into. No matter what you can tell us here; this just is not usually done by most people trying to “reach” JWs with “love.”
I can even think of one Catholic that has done this with me by proxy via a book he wrote! He doesn’t even know he did this; but he does something marvellous with what he writes. he really does build a palace of truth for people to move into. Do I agree with all his doctrinal understandings? No. But has he shown me Jesus? Yes.
His name is Herwig Arts, SJ and he teaches (or he used to), philosophical anthropology and religion at St. Ignatius University, Antwerp; and at The Catholic University of Louvain. I know that The Liturgical Press has published some of his books in the USA too. The book I have is called "God, The Christian, and Human Suffering. I got it at a Catholic retreat center near where I live. In it, he seeks for possible “points of illumination” within the pain and suffering that takes place in our world. Being burned as badly as I was; this book, along with a few others, by other authors, has been very meaningful to me.
I am telling you all this to try and describe how someone can build a palace of truth for other faiths to move into; without agreeing with them on all points; and without condemning them in the way that many ex-whatevers seem to like to do. It seems to me that too many people who leave a given church fall into the trap of doing the very things to the ones they left; that they so sensationally accuse them of doing.
I can think of one apologetics cult site that actually states how most JWs who knock on your door are child molesters! And that their religion actually breeds child molesters! This is so stupid, I don’t know how anyone can go for it. But I guess some people do. As we all know, all too well, child molesters have been found in most denominations. But to proscribe the whole group over it is crazy! I would never think of making this a point of criticism on the entire denomination; even if there are some Catholic Priests that have been arrested for same. A true Catholic knows better than that; and so does a true JW.
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carol_marie
Guest
Protestant101 (David),
I’m frustrated with your posts because you keep saying that the really wacky views & practices that we’ve been discussing aren’t the norm for JW’s - that for some reason our experiences as former JW’s aren’t typical. And we’re saying you are so wrong. They are typical. JW’s are so very uniform in their practices & beliefs because they are ALL controlled by the Watchtower Society.
You keep saying that we’ve refered to JW’s as evil. Please show me where? I’ve told you that JW’s themselves aren’t evil - they are sincere good people who have been brainwashed. I sure wasn’t evil when I was a JW - I thought I was serving Jehovah. Our contention isn’t with the JW mother who refuses to speak to her adult DF’d daugher for 20 years - that poor woman is only following orders. Our criticism lies with the Organization that tells her to do so. I thought I was able to make that distinction - am I not being clear?
I’m frustrated with your posts because you keep saying that the really wacky views & practices that we’ve been discussing aren’t the norm for JW’s - that for some reason our experiences as former JW’s aren’t typical. And we’re saying you are so wrong. They are typical. JW’s are so very uniform in their practices & beliefs because they are ALL controlled by the Watchtower Society.
You keep saying that we’ve refered to JW’s as evil. Please show me where? I’ve told you that JW’s themselves aren’t evil - they are sincere good people who have been brainwashed. I sure wasn’t evil when I was a JW - I thought I was serving Jehovah. Our contention isn’t with the JW mother who refuses to speak to her adult DF’d daugher for 20 years - that poor woman is only following orders. Our criticism lies with the Organization that tells her to do so. I thought I was able to make that distinction - am I not being clear?
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GungHo
Guest
I guess some people just do not care about the family like others. I for one, find it shamful and un-Christian to break up families. And the JW cult does this routinely.
And you make it sound like this is the only reason I denounce them. As I said, this is just the tip of the iceburg.
I tell you what…why don’t you go ahead and get babtized. Then get your entire family to join up. Then after this cult has wrapped itself around you like a giant snake for 40 years, come back and we can talk some more. We really have no frame of reference until you have been there and done that.
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carol_marie
Guest
Seriously - that is the truth.
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Nan_S
Guest
Maybe I’m just being dull-witted, but is “babtized” the JW version of being “baptized”? I’ve seen you use that term before.
Nan
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GungHo
Guest
Sorry it was a typo. I of course meant Baptized. (BTW, I do not know if there is a difference between Baptised, and Baptized.)
BUT…I do know this, as a JW, you are baptized into the JW cult. This is what you agree to… " Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"
This is of course “new light.” It never used to be this way, and wasn’t when I was baptized.
And by the way, the above is one of my major beefs with these guys. At one time the Governing Body (the ones that write the books and that said God was their editor) said they WERE inspired. Then in the 1970’s said they were not. BUT they said they were “spirit directed.” Kind of like having your cake and eating it too, as my Mom used to say.
BUT…I do know this, as a JW, you are baptized into the JW cult. This is what you agree to… " Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?"
This is of course “new light.” It never used to be this way, and wasn’t when I was baptized.
And by the way, the above is one of my major beefs with these guys. At one time the Governing Body (the ones that write the books and that said God was their editor) said they WERE inspired. Then in the 1970’s said they were not. BUT they said they were “spirit directed.” Kind of like having your cake and eating it too, as my Mom used to say.
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Sixtus
Guest
Hi Gungho and welcome
I have often wondered why information has to be censored before JW’s are allowed to read it.
I was once visited by a JW. We had a very interesting conversation. Before he left, he gave me a Watch tower and I gave him a Catholic Truth Society booklet. Some 10-minutes later, he came back looking very dejected, he explained that when he met up with his main group, the elder gave him a real rollicking for taking possession of a Catholic Truth Society booklet and so had to return it.
He further explained the elder had told him that under no circumstances must he ever ‘take’ much less so read any material that has not been cleared by the JW censor.
Is that true?..
If so, what about instructions on a bottle of medicine or instructions on a drivers handbook or food processor? Surely that cannot require censoring?
I have often wondered why information has to be censored before JW’s are allowed to read it.
I was once visited by a JW. We had a very interesting conversation. Before he left, he gave me a Watch tower and I gave him a Catholic Truth Society booklet. Some 10-minutes later, he came back looking very dejected, he explained that when he met up with his main group, the elder gave him a real rollicking for taking possession of a Catholic Truth Society booklet and so had to return it.
He further explained the elder had told him that under no circumstances must he ever ‘take’ much less so read any material that has not been cleared by the JW censor.
Is that true?..
If so, what about instructions on a bottle of medicine or instructions on a drivers handbook or food processor? Surely that cannot require censoring?
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