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CTBcin
Guest
Then he doesn’t have a very nuanced understanding of Lumen Gentium.
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brigidsalem
Guest
I was a Mormon for 40 years, and out of that I spent only 3 months in Utah. I hated the culture there–this was1979. Things might have “lightened up” since then, but in those days it was insufferable. When I went back east I decided to stay Mormon, because Northeastern Mormons are very different from Utah Mormons. But many years later, I did a great deal of study and research and realized that Mormonism is wrong. I left 5 years ago, but I am very much a Christian and want a church. I’m terrified of making another mistake, so I need to take plenty of time to read and research. I like lots about Catholicism, but I can’t rush and I also can’t tolerate living in fear.
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jamnoz
Guest
FWIW brigidsalem, I too am ex-LDS and a Catholic convert. I also recently just joined these forums. I think your experience is relatable. I think growing up LDS, I did at least learn an appreciation for God, a yearning so to speak. I also did appreciate that the LDS church taught me how to read really well, having to spend hours in church on Sunday will do that to you! Enjoy the research and reading!
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brigidsalem
Guest
One of the things I’m having trouble with is doctrines concerning Mary and Marian devotions. I have found that I like saying the Rosary, but all of my life (I was raised Protestant so I heard it from them as well as from Mormons) I have been taught that the Catholic Mary is patterned after Isis, and Catholics are engaging in goddess worship. That the Saints are simply replacing old pagan gods and godesses. I know now that this is not true, but I still have fears that communicating with Mary and the Saints is wrong. I was happy to learn, however, that the Mass is focused on Jesus Christ. I saw that every time that I visited Mass.
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Servant31
Guest
Ok nice. Sounds like you’ve got some perspective. Sorry you had a difficult experience there, saying you won’t be saved if your not catholic really isn’t a good perspective imho…try to forgive and move on. Catholicism is a great place though generally imo to develop a relationship with God. Just my .02 but that’s the point of whatever faith community you choose. Best regards friend, seriously don’t hesitate if we can answer anything to help on your journey.
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Servant31
Guest
I’ll jump in even though you were responding to another poster. With Mary, this is a common point of contention amongst Protestants. So to clarify. We never worship any saint. We only worship God in three forms Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. The saints, we believe, are in heaven and achieved a degree of holiness. By this they are closer to God than we are. Praying to them is a method of asking for assistance or extra help. We trust them because they ALWAYS point us to God. It’s like asking a really good assistant coach to help you out to learn something or show you a skill. Or asking a friend to pray for you when your hurt. You aren’t worshiping them, but asking them to help you get closer to God. However it’s never required to pray to saints. Sure we believe it can be helpful, but if your in doubt ever just pray to Jesus…you can’t go wrong!
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MNathaniel
Guest
Thank-you for sharing what you’ve been told – as much as it breaks my heart to hear the misinformation out there!
Mary isn’t ‘patterned’ off anyone (much less off a mythical pagan goddess). She’s a real historical person and the first Christian, as it were: our model in the Christian life, in the sense that… we look back to her, and how she responded so humbly to God’s invitation to her to participate in His plan of salvation, and we see in her our model for response.
I think the reason it breaks my heart when people disparage Mary (not you; but other people who overdo it in pushing her down, in trying to avoid the opposite mistake, of deifying her), is that Mary is the icon of the successful Christian. Christ is Christ (the Creator), and Mary is the first and model Christian (Christ-follower): the one described as so humble that her “soul magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46), and God chose to bear the fruit of the Spirit in her: not just the fruits of the Spirit that He bears in us (patience, gentleness, charity, etc) – but the actual Son of God Himself, who God graciously condescended to bear as the flesh-and-blood ‘fruit’ of Mary’s humble womb.
This is a picture of Mary’s humility and littleness, not grandness: because God is strong where we are weak; He is magnified (made more) where we make ourselves less. Each of us, as Christians, want to run the race successfully: we live in hope of the resurrection and the glory of the life to come. And we believe that Mary has already run that race, and she is already living in that glory, or at least in the beginnings of it assumed body and soul into Heaven by God (not by her own power; she has none, she’s just a creation like you or me). To me, this mother of ours (who Jesus gave us, to be our mother, from the cross) is an inspiration to the virtue of humility; to the fruitfulness of chastity; to the value of a hidden life. She is the example we look to for hope: that our faith isn’t abstract. That another mere creature has already ‘made it’.
To think that anyone misses out on this great Christian model is sad, to me. Because I think missing out on Mary, sometimes the faith can get sort of abstractified in our minds… as if we hope for the redemption of fallen humanity (the ‘new man’ and ‘new woman’, after fallen Adam and Eve), and we trust Jesus in an intellectual sense that it’s technically possible and that he’s the ‘new man’… but we don’t actually think with confidence or specificity that any mere creature, by name, has already ‘done it’; that this ball is already rolling; that humanity has an actual success story: someone who (by God’s extraordinary grace, with which she chose to cooperate) has already responded to Christ perfectly. Someone Christ loved and gave to the Church (“Behold your mother”). The new woman.
Mary isn’t ‘patterned’ off anyone (much less off a mythical pagan goddess). She’s a real historical person and the first Christian, as it were: our model in the Christian life, in the sense that… we look back to her, and how she responded so humbly to God’s invitation to her to participate in His plan of salvation, and we see in her our model for response.
I think the reason it breaks my heart when people disparage Mary (not you; but other people who overdo it in pushing her down, in trying to avoid the opposite mistake, of deifying her), is that Mary is the icon of the successful Christian. Christ is Christ (the Creator), and Mary is the first and model Christian (Christ-follower): the one described as so humble that her “soul magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46), and God chose to bear the fruit of the Spirit in her: not just the fruits of the Spirit that He bears in us (patience, gentleness, charity, etc) – but the actual Son of God Himself, who God graciously condescended to bear as the flesh-and-blood ‘fruit’ of Mary’s humble womb.
This is a picture of Mary’s humility and littleness, not grandness: because God is strong where we are weak; He is magnified (made more) where we make ourselves less. Each of us, as Christians, want to run the race successfully: we live in hope of the resurrection and the glory of the life to come. And we believe that Mary has already run that race, and she is already living in that glory, or at least in the beginnings of it assumed body and soul into Heaven by God (not by her own power; she has none, she’s just a creation like you or me). To me, this mother of ours (who Jesus gave us, to be our mother, from the cross) is an inspiration to the virtue of humility; to the fruitfulness of chastity; to the value of a hidden life. She is the example we look to for hope: that our faith isn’t abstract. That another mere creature has already ‘made it’.
To think that anyone misses out on this great Christian model is sad, to me. Because I think missing out on Mary, sometimes the faith can get sort of abstractified in our minds… as if we hope for the redemption of fallen humanity (the ‘new man’ and ‘new woman’, after fallen Adam and Eve), and we trust Jesus in an intellectual sense that it’s technically possible and that he’s the ‘new man’… but we don’t actually think with confidence or specificity that any mere creature, by name, has already ‘done it’; that this ball is already rolling; that humanity has an actual success story: someone who (by God’s extraordinary grace, with which she chose to cooperate) has already responded to Christ perfectly. Someone Christ loved and gave to the Church (“Behold your mother”). The new woman.
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MNathaniel
Guest
Sorry – I don’t mean to ramble on. As a convert, it actually took me a while to not feel weird about Mary. And you don’t ‘have’ to ever look at or think about her at all, I suppose. But maybe if you think of her as a particularly inspirational Christian, who Jesus loved in such a special way that he chose her to be his mother (the one person who was always there for him and loved him unceasingly in his life of suffering and being abandoned by others), that may help? And again, you don’t need to dive down any rabbit hole that’s not fruitful for you right now (and some people CAN overdo their attachment to Mary and cross a line into Mariolatry, especially in latin american countries, I’ve heard). If you keep your eyes on Jesus, that is everything: He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Everything (and everyone else) he has given us, is just help on the way to him.
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MNathaniel
Guest
Oh, about fearing that communicating with the Saints is wrong… Maybe searching a Catholic Answers Live video on YouTube, on this topic, might help alleviate your fears?
Off the top of my own head, I know typically the way we think of it is in the old-fashioned sense of the word ‘pray’, which just means ‘ask’. Like, “Pray, good sir, can you tell me the way to Cornwall?”
And based on imagery in the book of Revelation, of the vision showing saints in heaven carrying the ‘prayers’ of Christians still on earth, to God, as incense – when we ask something of a saint, we’re basically just asking them to pray for us to God (same as we ask fellow Christians still on earth to pray for us to God). So like, asking them to ‘pass’ our prayer to God, like incense, like the vision in Revelation shows them doing.
Obviously we can just pray straight to God without asking saints to pray for us (same as we can just pray straight to God without asking our friends on earth to pray for us) – but why would we fail to follow the instruction in James to “pray for one another”? We believe God likes it when we get involved in helping each other, including praying for others… and there’s no reason to believe the Church Triumphant (those in Heaven) stop doing this good work after they ‘graduate’ from the Church Militant (those still on earth). Indeed, why would those who have been fully sanctified and made completely holy, cease praying for those who need prayers? When even those not fully holy do pray? Surely the holy pray more, not less. And if the holy saints in heaven continue, in their now-fixed good will, to pray for us… why not let them know about any prayer requests we particularly have on our hearts?
Anyway, if it’s a point of struggle for you right now, you don’t need to do it (and I get that there are legitimate intellectual issues to sort through, e.g. a fear about whether this is just another form of necromancy). Just, if one day you want to look into it, there’s a long Church tradition and teaching about it, and plenty of resources to explore to (hopefully!) help settle your mind and heart about it, and help you receive another gift from God that helps you on your way to Him. And in the meantime, as ever, keep your eyes on Jesus. That’s what every true saint would tell you too. Every real saint will always point you to Jesus. They don’t exist to glorify themselves, but that God may be glorified in them.
Off the top of my own head, I know typically the way we think of it is in the old-fashioned sense of the word ‘pray’, which just means ‘ask’. Like, “Pray, good sir, can you tell me the way to Cornwall?”
And based on imagery in the book of Revelation, of the vision showing saints in heaven carrying the ‘prayers’ of Christians still on earth, to God, as incense – when we ask something of a saint, we’re basically just asking them to pray for us to God (same as we ask fellow Christians still on earth to pray for us to God). So like, asking them to ‘pass’ our prayer to God, like incense, like the vision in Revelation shows them doing.
Obviously we can just pray straight to God without asking saints to pray for us (same as we can just pray straight to God without asking our friends on earth to pray for us) – but why would we fail to follow the instruction in James to “pray for one another”? We believe God likes it when we get involved in helping each other, including praying for others… and there’s no reason to believe the Church Triumphant (those in Heaven) stop doing this good work after they ‘graduate’ from the Church Militant (those still on earth). Indeed, why would those who have been fully sanctified and made completely holy, cease praying for those who need prayers? When even those not fully holy do pray? Surely the holy pray more, not less. And if the holy saints in heaven continue, in their now-fixed good will, to pray for us… why not let them know about any prayer requests we particularly have on our hearts?
Anyway, if it’s a point of struggle for you right now, you don’t need to do it (and I get that there are legitimate intellectual issues to sort through, e.g. a fear about whether this is just another form of necromancy). Just, if one day you want to look into it, there’s a long Church tradition and teaching about it, and plenty of resources to explore to (hopefully!) help settle your mind and heart about it, and help you receive another gift from God that helps you on your way to Him. And in the meantime, as ever, keep your eyes on Jesus. That’s what every true saint would tell you too. Every real saint will always point you to Jesus. They don’t exist to glorify themselves, but that God may be glorified in them.
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Gorgias
Guest
Ignore him. You understand the statement from Lumen gentium more accurately than he does. Keep on discerning, praying, and asking questions!
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JSRG
Guest
Time for nitpicks! There is actually an exception to this. According to the Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter XII:
“No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.”
Obviously, this is an extremely rare occasion, but it is a noted exception.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’ll nitpick back at you: even assuming that someone had such a revelation - of which I’m not aware of any such examples - it would be a private revelation and would need to be approved by the Church, and even if it were approved by the Church, the faithful would not be required to believe it, and it might also contain error or not be literally true, as is the case with all private revelations to humans.
So we’re right back to “don’t know for sure”.
So we’re right back to “don’t know for sure”.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I’d say all former Mormons had/have the same thing going on. IMO it’s because we continue to think like a Mormon.
Catholicism is not Mormonism. There is no need to fear. We follow Jesus Christ. His yoke is not heavy and his burden is light.
You can think of the Saints as our aunts and uncles who provide for us examples of discipleship. Mary is a Saint, a notch above all other Saints, because of her special relationship with Jesus. She is special, our Mother! But she is not a goddess. Jesus shares all that is his with his disciples. So we call her Mother, because Jesus explicitly says we can.
These aren’t things to fear but to be thankful for, to God, for providing us with so much.
Comparative religion can be super interesting, like Mary to Isis, yet millennia ago this was addressed as demonic manifestations of truth. I dunno. That sounds plausible to me, but then again, God is constantly pulling humanity towards him and sometimes we’ve gotten bits and pieces right.
God the Son, is the very Truth that we are hoping to find.
All religions have a bit of truth, including Mormonism, and including ancient pagan religions. One comparison I read of long ago was images of Isis holding Horace on her lap, compared to images of Jesus being held by Mary. I though, ummm well, any images of motherhood have children on laps. My family pics have lots of those.
As The Little Flower said (paraphrasing) God pays attention to each soul, in the same way that the sun shines on each flower, causing it to bloom. You are loved by God, and the Holy Spirit will guide you to Truth.
God bless you on your journey.
Catholicism is not Mormonism. There is no need to fear. We follow Jesus Christ. His yoke is not heavy and his burden is light.
You can think of the Saints as our aunts and uncles who provide for us examples of discipleship. Mary is a Saint, a notch above all other Saints, because of her special relationship with Jesus. She is special, our Mother! But she is not a goddess. Jesus shares all that is his with his disciples. So we call her Mother, because Jesus explicitly says we can.
These aren’t things to fear but to be thankful for, to God, for providing us with so much.
Comparative religion can be super interesting, like Mary to Isis, yet millennia ago this was addressed as demonic manifestations of truth. I dunno. That sounds plausible to me, but then again, God is constantly pulling humanity towards him and sometimes we’ve gotten bits and pieces right.
God the Son, is the very Truth that we are hoping to find.
All religions have a bit of truth, including Mormonism, and including ancient pagan religions. One comparison I read of long ago was images of Isis holding Horace on her lap, compared to images of Jesus being held by Mary. I though, ummm well, any images of motherhood have children on laps. My family pics have lots of those.
As The Little Flower said (paraphrasing) God pays attention to each soul, in the same way that the sun shines on each flower, causing it to bloom. You are loved by God, and the Holy Spirit will guide you to Truth.
God bless you on your journey.
J
jack63
Guest
First, as a convert who has been in a somewhat similar situation as you, I can say that I’m upset for you. I find the words that you were told to be really painful. What was told to you is unfair, and it does not reflect the teaching of the Catholic Church or the views of most Catholics.
A very good homily by a Deacon once pointed out that conversion is not overnight process. It can be a long many year process with several steps and stages. Baptism and confirmation are no doubt a very important step and stage, but the process of conversion is not over at that point. I have to believe that the specific point in your conversion at which you decide to make this step is between you and God.
A very good homily by a Deacon once pointed out that conversion is not overnight process. It can be a long many year process with several steps and stages. Baptism and confirmation are no doubt a very important step and stage, but the process of conversion is not over at that point. I have to believe that the specific point in your conversion at which you decide to make this step is between you and God.
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brigidsalem
Guest
I have read some of Augustine, but I still don’t understand the Catholic Church’s position on pre-destinatioon. I do know that she rejects double pre-destination, which is a relief. Once a Calvinist online told me (because I had rejected Calvinism and made a few points that he didn’t like), that he could tell that I was one of those souls who are predestined for damnation!
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Fauken
Guest
Basically, God has set things up such that we are given every chance we can to be saved. Our lives are ordered such that whatever events may unfold in our lives (which He already knows) will never be guaranteed to having us not be saved. However, just because we are given every and all best chances to be saved doesn’t mean we’ll actually take it: you may be dealt a royal flush in poker and be able to take all, but it doesn’t mean anything if you fold. Our salvation is ultimately something we must choose, and God in His mercy gives us all the best chance possible to choose Him over the course of our lives.
Does that make sense?
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gazelam
Guest
So, are you looking for a faith that guarantees that you will go to Heaven no matter what you do?
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Horton
Guest
No, I believe she is looking for a church based on Truth and Love. Not a church that threatens people into good behavior. You know the old “if you XYZ, you will lose your temple recomend” threat. Or the one that states women will ONLY get to heaven through a man, never on their own, so they have to find someone to marry them.
That is what she doesn’t want.
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LovelyLadybug
Guest
This is not true. Non-Catholics can go to heaven, although being Catholic helps a lot.
You definitely should become Catholic and it will make going to heaven much easier. If you frequenty receive the sacraments of Holy Communion and Penance, you can be holier. Of course, only God knows what’s in people’s hearts and who is going to heaven. There are probably Catholics in hell and athiests in heaven, so nobody can say that being Catholic automatically helps you reach heaven. Non-catholics CAN be saved, but that doesn’t mean they WILL. I hope this helps!!! I’ll be praying for you!!! God bless!!! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:
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brigidsalem
Guest
Yes, it does make sense.
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