ex-mormon wants to talk

[beccaboo]

I have been reading this forum for a few days now and I feel safe venting here, so bear with me please. I have lived in a neighborhood with a heavy concentration of Mormon’s for many years. They were friends and associates and I marveled at their lifestyles and demeanors. I felt drawn to them and they appeared to be nothing but welcoming and accepting. I expressed an interest to want to learn more and two missionaries were dispatched to my home. What they taught me was so wonderful and I was being embraced by the sweetest people I had ever encountered. I had never seen such a group of non-judgemental, open-minded, sweet-sprited people in my life!! My husband wasn’t interested, but that was OK. I was promised that he’d come around. I started going to church and got baptised. I started getting my callings and was invited to so many things that I really didn’t have a free moment for my old friends and most of my family. Then I started hearing things like;
*Jesus being married and having children.
**not to worry about my husband’s non-member status because I would marry a “worthy” Mormon in the after-life and he would take me to my heavanly reward,
***men becoming gods of their own planets,
****women only having token titles of authority in the church, *****patriarchal blessing that totally freaked me out because this man was supposed to be blessed with revelation about my spiritual future and past and I think he gave me someone else’s blessing because he had another one to do that same night,
******God having a wife
*******you can’t enter the temple if you don’t pay your 10% of your income admission, drink tea or coffee, etc etc.
The things I observed in the behaviors of the people I once looked up to were changing very quickly. People gave their “testimonies” all the time and they are all the same and spoken in a robotic tone that I found disturbing. One of the missionaries referred to the Catholic church as the “abomination of the world” and the Pope as the “anti-christ”. I was told that every other church is a lie and the mormon church is the only salvation and wasn’t I lucky!!! I was urged to only read church approved literature, watch church-approved movies, listen to church approved music and hang out with church members “in good standing”. Where was all of this info when I committed myself? I’m not stupid and this is a common complaint from ex-mo’s so it’s obviously happening. If you question ANYTHING you are told that “these things will be revealed at the appropriate time”. You are also told that if you don’t agree with anything you are calling JS a liar and the church a fraud. Some much for the “free agency” they keep telling you that you have! I have read the responses from a couple of church members here that act like they don’t know what people are talking about and they deny and outright ignore the question. It makes me want to scream!! What bothers me more than anything is that I’m out but my head is so messed up I am obsessed with going to forums of the apologetics and confronting them but they are so blind and just keep saying “where’s your proof” yet when they are offered proof and they ignore it and call you a liar because what you gave them is not proof. They don’t give any proof to the contrary because they say they don’t have to or that it’s already been done and they aren’t going to do it again. I just hope a mormon reads this and recognizes their behavior and maybe saves themselves. It is such a dangerous organization that I don’t feel like they should be allowed to be an option for people.Thank you for this forum. God bless you all and pray for the mormon’s and the recovering mormons because we need it more than you know.

 

[jay29]

I’m a recent convert to Roman Catholic from Eastern Orthodox. I have done my research on Christian Religons and came to the conclusion that it is the one true church. I have heard many negatives about Mormons and I don’t even think they are Christians at all. I feel sorry you had to go through all of that nonsense.

 

[catsrus]

I too have felt drawn to mormons because of their “lifestyles and demeanors”.
But only to a point.
I have love for certain mormon friends but am appalled by their “theology”.
To jump into any religion without researching the background and history of it is a dangerous leap to make. Always, always look beyond that which attracts you.
I spent 18 months “studying” with the jws and reading their history, such as it is. They seemed like such nice people. I pulled the shade down on that after learning what they are really all about.
I spent 2 full years researching Catholicism before joining R.C.I.A. When I felt comfortable, I began attending the pre-cat. 2 and 1/2 years after that, I was confirmed as a Catholic. I’ve not regretted my decision EVER.
Try to look at it as a learning experience and go forward armed with the determination to never get swallowed up into anything again until you’ve proven to yourself what is behind all the bright smiles and welcomeing hands.
You are in my prayers beccaboo.

 

[beccaboo]

Thank you for that. It was truly one of the oddest experiences in my life. Every day that I’m away from that church I get closer to God.

 

[beccaboo]

catsrus:

I too have felt drawn to mormons because of their “lifestyles and demeanors”.
But only to a point.
I have love for certain mormon friends but am appalled by their “theology”.
To jump into any religion without researching the background and history of it is a dangerous leap to make. Always, always look beyond that which attracts you.
I spent 18 months “studying” with the jws and reading their history, such as it is. They seemed like such nice people. I pulled the shade down on that after learning what they are really all about.
I spent 2 full years researching Catholicism before joining R.C.I.A. When I felt comfortable, I began attending the pre-cat. 2 and 1/2 years after that, I was confirmed as a Catholic. I’ve not regretted my decision EVER.
Try to look at it as a learning experience and go forward armed with the determination to never get swallowed up into anything again until you’ve proven to yourself what is behind all the bright smiles and welcomeing hands.
You are in my prayers beccaboo.

 

[beccaboo]

You are so right and I hope that everyone would heed that excellant advice. The problem is that the info you are given prior to baptism is carefully scripted and timed. This craft was perfected over a long period of time and they know what they are doing. That’s why I view this church as being so dangerous. They know how to work every angle of every scenario.

 

[ben_dy]

beccaboo,

Just hang around for a couple of days - there are a number of ex-Mormons here who know just what you’re talking about: quite a few here are, I think, ‘cradle Mormons’ who left the LDS church after discovering many of the things that you have mentioned. You will also find - as you’ve already noticed! - current and quite vehement LDS members who will say that you’re lying, that the best of heaven you will taste is ‘outer darkness’ (I think that’s the term!), and that those doctrines that you found out about were either never taught as doctrine, are not current doctrine, or never spoken of in the first place.

From the former members, though, you’re certain to find sympathy - what you describe is what many have been telling us: in my case, a cradle Catholic, never a Mormon, but having the same experience as yourself with missionaries whom I thought the world of - wonderful young men who seemed to know their faith and the doctrines of the LDS church so fully and completely that I was quite impressed with them - but I came to realize that they were simply giving canned presentations and had no answers when it came to tougher questions as to what the LDS hold as doctrine. I don’t blame those enthusiastic young men, however - in the LDS church when you’re endowed with the priesthood at the age of 19 and given only 2-6 weeks to ‘prepare’ to go out and proselytize, you’re no at all in the position to know Church doctrine as 25 years old newly ordained Catholic priest who likely has a childhood of religious education and at least 6 years of seminary or university theology behind them.

I’m fairly new around here - please check back so that you can get some feedback, which will hopefully be of some benefit, from the ex-Mormons that frequent these forums.

May God bless you - it sounds as if you are going through a tough time just now. You’ll be in my prayers.

 

[beccaboo]

you people are the best!! I hate to be such a whiner but I think I found a great place to do it. I think I just really want to understand how I ever got into that mess and why I’m so messed up after such a relatively short time. It’s very odd.

 

[Casen]

beccaboo:

It is such a dangerous organization that I don’t feel like they should be allowed to be an option for people.

Am I the only one here that finds this statement a bit creepy?

Allowed by whom?

Are you so enlightened that you’re going to tell people what their religious choices should be?? Couldn’t some similarly misguided former Catholic make the same weak argument about Catholicism?

 

[Casen]

beccaboo:

You are so right and I hope that everyone would heed that excellant advice. The problem is that the info you are given prior to baptism is carefully scripted and timed. This craft was perfected over a long period of time and they know what they are doing. That’s why I view this church as being so dangerous. They know how to work every angle of every scenario.

Yes, the LDS church has improved its missionary efforts over the years and been fairly effective at it. And indeed many join the church and later fall away for a variety of reasons including apathy, doctrinal disagreements, social reasons, family pressure, etc. But the same occurs in all proselytizing Christian religions. I’m not sure why you characterize LDS missionary efforts as being somehow nefarious and deceitful. The missionary discussions represent the core doctrines of the church and are a good introduction to the most important and central beliefs of the church and help the investigator to build a strong doctrinal foundation upon which to grow. Is there something wrong or dishonest with this approach that I’m missing?

Apparently you discovered some doctrine you disagreed with after your LDS baptism and were offended by some bad advice you got from some of the members. That all fine and I have no problem with it at all. But your arguments are really no different than those used by ex-Catholics, ex-JWs, ex-whatever in chat rooms all over the internet. So, you had a bad experience with the LDS church and no longer believe in it; fine, but why then need to nitpick and disparage? Why not just move on? If you want to discuss or debate doctrine or even specific areas of disagreement with LDS beliefs then you’ve come to the right place. But please be respectful.

 

[ben_dy]

Casen:

Am I the only one here that finds this statement a bit creepy?

Allowed by whom?

Are you so enlightened that you’re going to tell people what their religious choices should be?? Couldn’t some similarly misguided former Catholic make the same weak argument about Catholicism?

Casen,

“Misguided” people who feel as if they have been ‘duped’ by any religion - Catholic, LDS, evangelical, protestant, etc., might all be of the opinion, when bewildered that they seem to have been duped, that the body which they felt did them harm ought not to be allowed to use similar tactics so that others might be prevented from similar experiences. I’m sure that it has everything to do with the emotions that one is feeling and not some plot to reign in religious freedom in the U,S,

That being said, I hope that ex-LDS will jump in here and would also point out that this is a suffering which might have been avoided had the LDS a catechism - as LDS seem so reluctant to bring to print - something which outlines specific doctrines as well as acknowledged heresies - which would educate those coming into a church: something like that used in RCIA (OCIA, etc.) when catechumens are undergoing instruction for becoming Catholics.

The manner in which the Catholic Church and the LDS accepts new ‘members’ is drastically different - one may take a great time so that it may be ascertained that the potential member is well acquainted with Church doctrine before making the big step. The LDS way seems to be much closer to the ‘any warm body’ of some protestant denominations - six lessons (seven?), an interview on the most basic doctrine, baptism, and you’re in. I know the latter by personal experience - by my second lesson, although I was adamant that I had no desire to join the LDS church but was only interested in learning more about it, one of my missionaries had his calendar out planning the remaining sessions and identifying a date one when I could be baptized. I suppose that because I was listening and not being rude no number of crucifixes on the wall were going to convince these young men that I was nowhere near an epiphany that would signal the truth of Mormonism for me!

Oh, and when we did get around to a brief discussion of the temple the answers were, naturally, evasive but I was told how I could be ‘sealed’ to my late wife and son - but only after a year of ‘living right’ so that I might secure a Temple Recommend, Play on the emotions of a widower promising a certainty of sealing for all eternity to your dead loved ones sounds attractive - being told in less enthusiastic tones the ‘rules’ beyond what has been built up to be of such immanent glory (and that you may, in fact, never be able to do so should you continue to have a glass of wine every week or so…) is rather a ‘let down’.

So please - I know that you’re active LDS but perhaps this is an instance in which finding emotions ‘creepy’ you might be able to empathize, even, with that which this lady is struggling. Should a Catholic come here with such a heartfelt plea I would be much more interested in ascertaining how I might help rather than to focus on what might be construed as ‘creepy’ by some.

 

[Casen]

OK Ben, if venting and emotional support is what’s going on here I’ll back off and try to show some empathy as you’ve suggested. I apologize, I’m an engineer by profession and have never been accused or being overly sensitive or emotional, which is obviously a personal flaw.

Regarding you’re criticism of the rather short study period a person must go though before LDS conversion, I’ll refer you to the New Testament, where baptism often occurred the vary day of an encounter with an Apostle. However, I must admit that LDS missionaries sometimes get over zealous in their desires to baptize investigators. As a return missionary myself I can say there were a few people that, looking back, probably weren’t quite ready when we baptized them and in some cases these people later fell away, much to my regret. But in my experience they usually fell away due to lack of social and emotional support rather than over doctrinal issues.

 

[Tmaque]

In my experience, most LDS converts decide to become LDS based solely on their emotions. Their is simply no effort made to make sure that the investigator has reasoned through their doubts. One of the first things a missionary will do, is attempt to get you to pray about the BOM. This is very effective because it plants a suggestion in the mind, which often time produces a feeling, and once a person has an emotional experience regarding anything, the truth becomes largely irrelevant(at least in the short term). The more educated a person is about the facts(pros & cons) regarding the BOM, the PoGP, JS, and the early LDS Church, the less effective getting a testimony from prayer seems to be(unless of course their minds are already made up).

I respect the intent of LDS to bring people to the truth. It’s a noble goal. I just think that their message, and consequently their methods, are uninspired. In my experience the LDS focus is on baptism, baptism, baptism. My first mission companion was constantly in trouble with the zone leader because he would not proselytize new members and spent all his time visiting inactives. He believed that 90% of new converts in that city(Daegu, South Korea) fell away within 12 months.

Contrast this with the RCIA process where there is intense respect for your spiritual journey. You’re shown absolute patience, absolute respect, and your questions are answered honestly and truthfully. You’re given a Catechism and you are asked to read it so that you can know what the Church believes and teaches. You are asked to take your time and make sure that you can accept and truly believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches. If there’s ANYTHING you can’t accept then you should wait. That’s why Catholic convert retention rates are so high.

As far as Casen’s comparison with LDS proselytizing and early Christian proselytizing. Absolute apples and oranges here. The world is FAR more complicated today in every way, but particularly in regards to religion. Their weren’t thousands of Christian denominations to choose from then, and their weren’t hundreds of conflicting messages being thrown at them from every direction. The early Christians had a message, that’s it. They didn’t even have a NT. They simply told their story:

God, the Word, became flesh. He lived among us, he taught us, he suffered the most shameful death possible(crucified), but has brought glory to that horrible symbol(the cross) because he defeated it! He has risen! We witnessed these things and testify to them! These are the things he has taught us that you must do to gain eternal life…

In the beginning, a person either accepted that or they didn’t…pretty simple. There was one Christian authority. If you didn’t believe that authority you didn’t believe in Christ. Today you can believe any one of 30,000 different doctrines and still call yourself Christian. After Christianity had been around a while and heresies began to crop up, a need developed in the early Church for the long instruction periods like we see today.

 

[Chris-WA]

I took the missionary discussions and was asked to be baptised after the second lesson. That really struck me as strange given the fact that we hadn’t covered much of anything. I believe that is standard practice since I’ve heard it several times from other people. I wonder how many people say yes after the second lesson, and how one could possibly justify such a decision with almost nothing to go on (before you’ve even read the BoM for that matter). That leads me to believe that the program is more concerned with numbers than genuine conversions. It’s so easy to become a Mormon, and as the ex-Mormons can probably testifiy to–so hard to get out. Perhaps some former missionaries can share what the priorities were when they were missionaries.

 

[BJRumph]

Yes, Beccaboo, what you are observing is indeed true, as is others’ responses.

Even Casen showed up to provide you with *actual examples * of these deceptive tactics whose only purpose is to convince the unwary that it is your fault that you cannot recognize the presence of Truth in the Church, rather than the simple recognition that the lds church is not what it claims, and is especially not what its local defenders claim it to be.

Afterall; It is some *anonomous member’s * fault that your were misled about some *false doctrine * that you got confused about; it certainly was not the Church’s fault because they would never teach anything that you could possibly find objectionable if you were in your right mind.
Sick, really. Sicker more that he prolly *does not even realize * the viper he put in the grass for you; just another pawn who doesn’t even realize it, thinking he is building the Kingdom and all that. Such venemous, and spiritually lethal, “innocence”, empowered by that noble desire to spread the Truth that Tmaque pointed out.

—Long diatribe against every point Casen insinuated, brought up, or otherwise tried to assert removed by author: let it suffice that I object to every point Casen had tried to make here. I’ll save them for other threads —

Anyhoo, Beccaboo; you are not alone, and our prayers are with you and your family. It was not “reason” that began my journey out of mormonism; but from that blessed time of Grace onwards, I have found no end to the reasons for why I remain a glad “apostate” from that wicked device of Satan.

 

[amgid]

Chris-WA:

I took the missionary discussions and was asked to be baptised after the second lesson. That really struck me as strange given the fact that we hadn’t covered much of anything. I believe that is standard practice since I’ve heard it several times from other people. I wonder how many people say yes after the second lesson, and how one could possibly justify such a decision with almost nothing to go on (before you’ve even read the BoM for that matter). That leads me to believe that the program is more concerned with numbers than genuine conversions. It’s so easy to become a Mormon, and as the ex-Mormons can probably testifiy to–so hard to get out. Perhaps some former missionaries can share what the priorities were when they were missionaries.

Yes, it is a policy of the Church to commit an investigator to set a date for baptism early on, after the first couple of discussions. This is because some investigators gain a testimony of the Church early on in the teaching process, and it would be unwise and anticlimactic to delay their baptisms unnecessarily. However, they are not usually baptized immediately, after they have made such a commitment. Commitment to a baptismal date becomes a goal for the investigator to work towards; and they are usually not baptized until all the discussions are given, and the expectations and requirements of the Church are properly explained to them, such as keeping the word of wisdom, paying tithing, regular attendance to the Church, keeping the law of chastity etc; and a commitment is obtained from them that they would abide by them. Also, if they have committed serious sins (if they are living in an unmarried relationship with someone for example), they are not baptized until they have properly repented and put the matter right (in the example given above, they would be required to get married or end the relationship, before they can be baptized).

amgid

 

[PaulDupre]

Chris-WA:

I took the missionary discussions and was asked to be baptised after the second lesson. That really struck me as strange given the fact that we hadn’t covered much of anything. I believe that is standard practice since I’ve heard it several times from other people. I wonder how many people say yes after the second lesson, and how one could possibly justify such a decision with almost nothing to go on (before you’ve even read the BoM for that matter). That leads me to believe that the program is more concerned with numbers than genuine conversions. It’s so easy to become a Mormon, and as the ex-Mormons can probably testifiy to–so hard to get out. Perhaps some former missionaries can share what the priorities were when they were missionaries.

For the first “scenic mission conference” I attended in the Taiwan Taipei mission, the mission staff provided a souvenier T-shirt for each missionary. On the back it had the date and location of the conference, but on the front it said “Let’s get those 'gators in the water!”.
Hi ho,
Paul

P.S.: For the uninitiated, 'gators is short for “investigators”.

 

[paul_barlow]

am i burning speaking to all you apostates. so the 12 million mormons are thick brain dead. we excesise no faith. thats an intresting statement from a bunch of people who seem to have lost there sense.

you all joined a church with more confused doctrine than the other churchs put together. were are all the simple truths in your teachings. please give me a detailed explanation on what your church teaches. please show me were the virgin mary became so important in your churchs teaching was it peter james or john who taught to pray to her and then lets look at your teaching on baptism of children you dare to claim a child is in hell without baptism you do not teach that which christ taught.

we at least baptise our members we don’t except everybody’s baptism.

oh it is so sad to see so many confused and misguided people gathered together. may be i should cast you all out.

learn your faith and when you have learnt that then learn the one you have denied and when you have done that come and mock us.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

paul barlow:

am i burning speaking to all you apostates. so the 12 million mormons are thick brain dead. we excesise no faith. thats an intresting statement from a bunch of people who seem to have lost there sense.

you all joined a church with more confused doctrine than the other churchs put together. were are all the simple truths in your teachings. please give me a detailed explanation on what your church teaches. please show me were the virgin mary became so important in your churchs teaching was it peter james or john who taught to pray to her and then lets look at your teaching on baptism of children you dare to claim a child is in hell without baptism you do not teach that which christ taught.

we at least baptise our members we don’t except everybody’s baptism.

oh it is so sad to see so many confused and misguided people gathered together. may be i should cast you all out.

learn your faith and when you have learnt that then learn the one you have denied and when you have done that come and mock us.

Peace be with you Paul. You may claim to know your own faith but you know nothing of mine.

 

[Tmaque]

paul barlow:

am i burning speaking to all you apostates. so the 12 million mormons are thick brain dead. we excesise no faith. thats an intresting statement from a bunch of people who seem to have lost there sense.

you all joined a church with more confused doctrine than the other churchs put together. were are all the simple truths in your teachings. please give me a detailed explanation on what your church teaches. please show me were the virgin mary became so important in your churchs teaching was it peter james or john who taught to pray to her and then lets look at your teaching on baptism of children you dare to claim a child is in hell without baptism you do not teach that which christ taught.

we at least baptise our members we don’t except everybody’s baptism.

oh it is so sad to see so many confused and misguided people gathered together. may be i should cast you all out.

learn your faith and when you have learnt that then learn the one you have denied and when you have done that come and mock us.

Wow! So many misconceptions…so little time.

1. Catholic’s don’t claim a child, or anyone else for that matter, will go to hell simply because they are not baptized.
2. The baptism of infants was practiced right from the beginning as evidenced by the fact that baptism replaced circumcision, and the evidence of writings on the subject by the ECF’s. Where in the Bible does it say infant baptism is wrong? We have ECF’s saying it was taught by the apostles, and we have no evidence to the contrary. Pretty simple conclusion and a baseless accusation to say it was a an invented practice.
3. The concept of asking another person to pray for you is not strange at all. The idea that we can ask those who are in heaven to pray for us is not prohibited anywhere in scripture. We also know it was practiced in the early Christian church.