I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth, and in in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.*That’s a great quote, but we both realize that was said in a larger context and within a greater tradition of teaching. Lots of religions teach doing good to others, that doesn’t make them Christianity.
Then there is no point to any religion. Why not just have a general code of ethics and get rid of all religions in general? I think you’d find religious people horrified by that because… beliefs do matter to them, even if not to you.
They were considered atheists because they refused to offer sacrifices to Roman gods or acknowledge other faiths as valid. They were considered atheists because they were exclusive. WHat you said doesn’t really make sense-- why couldn’t you offer to the gods and help one’s neighbor? WHat does make sense is that Christians believed that their God was a jealous God and would not tolerate worship or other gods, therefore they were not to offer sacrifices to them.
Is that really relevant? Early Christian (white obviously) weren’t atheists.
Hmm, whether or not they considered them atheists I don’t know, they may have. I do know as a fact that the Jews were tolerated because of the antiquity of their religion and the Romans respected antiquity. Christianity was an upstart religion, as far as the Romans were concerned, and thoroughly anti-social, and ‘atheist’ so a movement to be wary of.
Filius,
Then you have chosen the wrong religion, because historical Christianity is equally polytheistic. Have a look at these posts to find out why:
zerinus,
. No, they weren’t polytheists (not the Christians of the NT), and I’d love to debate with you on that topic if you want to. By the time Christ had come, true monotheism was the norm of Judaism, and if Christians were going to diverge from that, it would’ve been a clear, hard break that we would have very clear evidence of in the NT itself.Rome had signed treaties with the Herodians that gave Judaism an exempt status. When it came increasingly clear that this new religious movement (Christianity) was NOT Judaism, the protections didnt apply.
Then you couldn’t have read the articles very carefully. I agree that the early Christians were monotheidtic; and so are the Mormons. They were monotheistic in the same way that Mormons are monotheistic. But if you are going to accuse Mormons of polytheism, then you are in trouble; because they were as polytheistic as Mormons are polytheistic. Go back and read the articles again more carefully, and you will know why.zerinus,
YOu and your blog
Maybe the reason why so many Mormons have had such a strong pull toward the Catholic Church is because, they, like you, have realized that there is only one god. And the Christians in the New Testament were of the same as the Catholics, The word “Catholic” became the name for Christians in the 1st century so that they could distinguish one of the followers of Christ from a heretic who called himself a Christian.zerinus,
YOu and your blog
That wouldn’t surprise me at all, this is a pretty big deal. A lot of Mormons don’t seem bothered by it, but I think when people get truly reflective about their theology and how that reflects on God it can get very disquieting very fast. What’s the point of having a God who is one of us, only, much older? Is that really God? Who is the sustainer of existence itself? The creator of the laws of the cosmos? and on and on… Mormonism fails to answer these questions because it so limits God. I defended the Mormon conception of deity by arguing that eternal doesn’t really mean eternal, that infinite is relative, that early Israelites were polytheists anyway, but how does any of that address the basic questions that humans have about existence itself? I found that it avoided the basic issue, God as the ultimate source, and, how are we finite creations of His to be reconciled with Him? For me it’s a 180 degree turn around.
zerinus,
I don’t care if you’re Catholic or looking into Catholicism or not, but you really need to take a look into Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica. I am posting a link to a section that addresses this post. Everyone, no matter what their beliefs, should read it.
Filius,
Yes. It has become common in America to define yourself as a “Christian” just because of convenience. I’m not sure how common this happens in the Church of LDS, but I do know that there are many Protestants (and some who call themselves Catholics) who like to think that they are “saved” just because they call themselves so. And then, when you start asking them about how they know they’re saved they’ll tell you “It’s in the Bible” (where?) or “Jesus loves me that much”. And right and left you’ll find TV preachers reinforcing these beliefs. I guess it’s that same conceited attitude that leads Mormons to the same ignorance that modernist Christians have. Only they believe themselves to be gods. I used to have a similar attitude towards Christianity until I started actually looking into my faith. I mean, my parents don’t really understand the faith as well as they think they do, and I was just kind of making it up as I went along. So many Catholics don’t even understand the purpose of the Mass. And I’ve been reading the Summa Theologica, which has helped me understand God and the world in general in a much deeper way.
This is precisely what it is in the LDS church. Mormons know that to be labeled ‘Christian’ is the respectable, normal thing, and feel it acutely when others deny them that label. They often argue that Jesus Christ is in the name of their church, so of course they’re Christians! That just goes to show the shallowness with which they think of their theology, which is in part due to the fact that they have no professional clergy so that even addresses coming from their prophets are rather insubstantial, and partly due to the wider culture they are trying to adapt. That’s why I appreciate efforts from Mormons like zerinus to branch out on their own and deepen their theological understanding, but that is possible due to the unfortunate lack of theological understanding by the church’s leadership. There’ sa lot of ‘seat of the pants’ judgements, change the temple ceremony here, cut out that part, shorten, no lengthen the garments, all the while avoiding delving into what it actually means to call onesself a Christian- who is God, how is He different from us, what does it mean that Christ is God… and so on.
The LDS church is relatively new and so it wasn’t hard to find its skeletons that the general authorities have tried hard to rid the public sphere of. Joseph Smith is obviously a charlatan and the LDS religion so obviously is not the continuation of anything Jewish or Christian. It is simply a blending of things that were appealing to its charlatan founder (polygamy, masonry, mysticism, etc).
I’m in the process of joining because the accounts of early church fathers (i.e. students of the Apostles whom Jesus chose) professed distinctively Catholic beliefs, because the Bible (which all so-called Christians appeal to) was canonized by the institutional Catholic Church, and most importantly because the Catholic Church (among a very select few) administer Jesus physically to its parishioners in the Mass.
One thing the Mormons got right (and was substantiated by the Church Fathers) was the need for priesthood authority. This automatically ruled out almost all Protestant churches as being legitimately the church of Christ. After understanding this fact, the Apostolic Succession led me directly to the Church. Also the belief in the necessity of baptism helped.
Understanding the trinity (having been raised my entire childhood in a non-trinitarian family) was probably the most difficult. Also ridding myself of the subconscious discomfort of relic/icon/statue veneration. Rabid anti-Catholicism as a child made it nearly impossible for me to distinguish between ‘veneration’ and ‘idolatry’.