I don’t claim anything, I simply try and up hold what the Church has always taught about contraception. I don’t want to be responsible for someone being lead astray by my silence. “It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.” What you do in your bed is between you, your husband and God.
Maybe I’m a bit late, and true, I don’t know you. As you do not know me. But lets look at what you say about yourself.
But you said Contraception was there to benefit the poor. Should the RICH have the same benefits as the poor? If all benefits are distributed equally, then how are the poor helped?
Ah, yes. The real world is the standard of measurment. Just like what is seen on TV…Sex and the City… real world.
I find it humorous that we spend tons of money pushing condoms to fight AIDS. When all they have to do is be a faithful spouse and wait until they are married and there would be no STD’s or AIDS…Abortion clinics. And not a penny would need to be spent. More left to feed the needy if you ask me. Not the real world? Then why is it a problem today? It wasn’t a problem 50 years ago. Did the “real world” not exist 50 years ago?Even you say the mid twenties for sexual activity is appropriate. Fine… so why do we have free condom programs in some Middle and High Schools? The message is?
Yep. Go with the flow… How can a screaming mob be wrong?
True! “American Catholics” is a different church. We here at CAF generally state the positions of the Roman Catholic Church. Other threads discuss the Non-RC beliefs. Sorry you were confused.
I’m sorry if I’m being obstinate, but if one wants to avoid pregnancy, then why should not one practice total abstinence, not just abstinence during fertile times as NFP does?
Wow, it’s quite wonderful to see that people think like you! I’ve always had this impression that NFP was all about avoiding children. Abstinence is the best way to do that, and you would probably agree. But if you and God want children, NFP would be very useful, as it was for you.
Because thats isn’t the only purpose of sex, there is another purpose and that is to reinforce the bond between husband and wife, to renew their wedding vows. Sex in marriage is a sacramental, a scared act, not just something you do to make kids.
I don’t have time to post more right now, but after reading this I wanted to comment that I’m impressed with the openmindedness you reported that took you from unbelief in God’s existence to belief in Him. I hope you remain open minded to learning more about the Catholic Church’s position against artificial contraception.
For the people I know, that is the most common. NFP is about spacing children, first and foremost. But still the other question you ask is a valid question, basically my paraphrase would be if a couple is “done” having children shouldn’t the appropriate action be total abstinence? It is a good and valid question. My answer would most certainly be, no.Wow, it’s quite wonderful to see that people think like you! I’ve always had this impression that NFP was all about avoiding children. Abstinence is the best way to do that, and you would probably agree. But if you and God want children, NFP would be very useful, as it was for you.
(Don’t worry I was in a car and wearing my seatbelt.)
She did not mean the American Catholic Church. She was referring to Catholics who have American citizenship (I think you know this, but were being sarcastic). Do you not consider yourself both American and Catholic (that is if you happen to live in this country)?
Nine kids hereMy parents used NFP
to space 11 kids.
I guess in this day and age some people can’t believe that anyone would actually want a lot of kids.
Catholic doctrine was I believe correctly stated on the first page of this thread. I have as I said no quarrel with anyone using NFP , but I also have no problem with anyone using contraception if they have chosen to. It’s beyond me since I have completed menopause. I don’t think anyone has stated dogma incorrectly here.
I no where made any claim about the value of ABC other than that it being taught as part of a complete sex education together reduced both pregnancy and abortion to a greater degree than any other methodology of abstinence teaching. I certainly am in favor of govt programs that insure that all people have basic needs met regardless of income. I am not suggesting that the wealthy should be stripped of their wealth other than that they actually pay their fair share of taxes.
I suggested that contraception helps poor people who don’t want more children to achieve that desire. That would seem to be a good thing, particularly if they so desire. No one is forcing contraception on anyone. Your confused and I don’t see how you are conflating the two things.
The main argument against the Church is that it hangs onto its dogma in the face of international disasters such as AIDS and offers nothing but abstinence as a solution. If they worked, we wouldn’t have any problems. The fact is that people have been promiscuous since the dawn of civilization and we have to address the reality and not simply preach a standard that the vast vast majority of humanity since time immemorial are unwilling and unable to adher to. You are denying the reality of the world. The fact that contraception is available in most of the world is not a requirement that it be used, and obviously some don’t, and so the problems continue.Ah, yes. The real world is the standard of measurment. Just like what is seen on TV…Sex and the City… real world.
The fact remains your solution, has been proven not to work. Sex education and the availability of ABC’s does reduce the incidence of pregnancy and abortion. Those are the facts no matter how much you wish they were not. Studies show that abstinence programs are simply not working. They change zero.
I referred to what I thought would be best. I have no illusions about what is really going on. The message is always the same. However, some folks are not prepared to allow our youngsters to contract AIDS and other serious illnesses by stubbornly refusing them the protection they need if they choose to go against our wishes and engage in this behavior.
No need to be rude. I would hope you don’t leave your own conscience at the door and let the Church do all your thinking for you.
Ranting also does not answer the statement either. And please refrain from rolling your eyes. It is again rude and uncharitible. It is clear you misread the section for I did not state that majorities were correct necessarily. You’re letting your anger interfer with your ability to read correctly.Yep. Go with the flow… How can a screaming mob be wrong?
Cute but of course you know exactly what I meant. So it doesn’t deserve a response. “Catholics who live in America”
Perhaps I shall read one day an argument that convinces me. So far I have not. I appreciate that you are willing to discuss this in a fair minded way without resorting to the usual nastiness.I don’t have time to post more right now, but after reading this I wanted to comment that I’m impressed with the openmindedness you reported that took you from unbelief in God’s existence to belief in Him. I hope you remain open minded to learning more about the Catholic Church’s position against artificial contraception.
This is an out right fabrication by the pro-contraception crowd. The teen pregnancy rate and the STD rate of kids coming out of High Schools says Sex Ed and ABC is not working. Heres some facts and statics on teen pregnancy and abortion historically. teenshelter.org/data.htm
Then what, “ruin” their lives to take care of the kid they didn’t ask for, or abortion. The teaching of a ABC has directly made a more promiscuous teen populace. You willing to knowingly take 1 in 100 sexually active kids youth away with parenthood or Murder?NFP is cheaper and at least as effective. With NFP your also keenly aware of your actions and exactly how those baby’s are made. Again you try and take the consequence out of sex and you take the reality of possible parenthood away form people and when the failure rate happens, someone stuck with an unwanted baby.
The only thing that always works in abstinence. Thats it. condoms will reduces the chance of spreading aids in an individual case, but have sex with enough people often enough and you will get it. How is that an effective message to a nation that plagued (literally) with promiscuity? Abstinence does work, in fact its the only thing that does, unfortunately its also cheep has no industry behind it and it isn’t inline with modern thinking that sex is some kind of biological right.
If what you said is true then why did it work for me and a number of my friends? Yes I know people that had sex before they got married. Had you given them a condom and a wink and a nod, they would have sex a lot faster too. Hell I’d have done it as well.
Again, You can not say I’d rather you didn’t have sex but just in case take this. It doesn’t work that way. I remember being a teenager, I remember wanting nothing more than to just do it, I also remember that nagging in the back of my mind exactly what the risks were to my actions. Teenagers aren’t stupid.
I am not calling you a liar as you have called me. But I stand by the studies that show that sex education coupled with availability of ABC’s have and do reduce teen pregnancy and thus abortions. All studies show that abstinence only does not appreciably change the numbers at all. These studies are done by groups that have no vested interest in the outcome of the study. Your stats show nothing about abstinence whatsoever. I did not claim that pregnancy rates were falling by the way. I said that SE and ABC do have an impact and a proveable one on the numbers.
Now you are changing the argument. I submit that even people who use ABC know where babies come from. NFP may certainly be cheaper, but I am told it is something that takes a lot of time and work to learn how to do effectively. What consequences am I trying to eliminate. Aren’t they the same for both? pregnancy? Again, your argument is nonsensical. How is one form or the other leaving someone unsuspectingly “stuck with an unwanted baby?” Don’t failures in NFP result in the same? a child that was not desired? What is the point of using it then?
I guess you are unaware of what constitutes sex education. It is not simply handing out condoms as you so blithely announce. Abstinence works, but unfortunately it is not followed. It is as good as doing nothing according to statistics. If it worked it would be embraced. You have no corner on wanting to reduce teen pregnancy and other diseases spread by promiscuous sex believe me. It is arrogant to claim that you do.
Some people just dont listen apparently. I cannot tell you why it didnt work for you. That is like asking why some alcoholic isn’t helped by AA while others are. Nothing works for everyone. And for some folks NOTHING works at all. I suspect you can’t speak for what others would have done. That fact that you had other stops in play that kept you from having sex doesn’t mean you can speak for everyone else. The fact that some have sex with no protection is evidence that what worked for you doesn’t work for others.
Stating that it doesn’t isn’t proof of anything. I remember being a teenager as well. Anecdotal evidence, especially of yourself is not evidence of much of anything. Sorry. Teenagers are in effect fairly stupid. It’s a medical certainty. The frontal lobes which control impulse and judgement are not fully formed until about the mid twenties. That’s exactly why kids make mistakes.
I would be an exception to this. We are few and far between.
What studied are you basing this opinion. Even those who do not favor abstinence programs admit they have impact although they say it is minor only 23 % but nowhere is zero claimed.
Well, I wasn’t being sarcastic. I read her thread as “I’m American Catholic and you guys are just part of the old ‘represive’ RCC.” I’m sorry if I made the wrong connection there. If you read up on the ACCUS, you might understand my perspective.
I will agree that they are provoking. As any “debate and discussion” of sex, here on CAF, tends to be.
And, while it may not be apparent by some of my postings. Many times, I know she is correct. At least to a point. Getting beyond that point has been challenging.