*Exactly* three persons in one God?

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I submitted this to the AAA forum a few days ago but it hasn’t shown up there.

Does the Church teach that there are three and only three persons within the one God? Or do we only say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons which have been revealed to the Church but leave open the question of whether there are more?

I would consider it a highly conceited position to assume that God has revealed Himself fully (in any of His aspects) to us mortals unless He has explicitly told us that He has done so.
 
Racer X:
I submitted this to the AAA forum a few days ago but it hasn’t shown up there.

Does the Church teach that there are three and only three persons within the one God? Or do we only say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons which have been revealed to the Church but leave open the question of whether there are more?

I would consider it a highly conceited position to assume that God has revealed Himself fully (in any of His aspects) to us mortals unless He has explicitly told us that He has done so.
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There is only ONE God…and there are 3 ‘expressions’ of the one God.

Think of it like this. Water is expressed in the form of fluid, ice and steam…but they are all water.

The Church absolutely teaches there is only a Trinity, no more no less. Anything else is heresy.

SV
 
I know, SV. I think you don’t understand the question. I well understand the Trinity. I am asking if the Church teaches definitively if God consists of only Father, Son and Holy Ghost and no other person, or if it is an open and unanswered question with the deposit of faith.
 
Racer X:
I know, SV. I think you don’t understand the question. I well understand the Trinity. I am asking if the Church teaches definitively if God consists of only Father, Son and Holy Ghost and no other person, or if it is an open and unanswered question with the deposit of faith.
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear …because I did understand your question 🙂

Yes the Church teaches definitively on the Trinity…anything else is heresy. It cannot change.

SV
 
More, from the Catechism

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
 
If there were more then three, a baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would be invalid.
 
St Veronica:
There is only ONE God…and there are 3 ‘expressions’ of the one God.
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I’m not convinced that you understood the question. I have not questioned whether there is only one God. And I know that the church has taught “definitively on the Trinity.” But has the Church taught that there are definitely no more persons in God than Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Does the Church teach that God will NEVER reveal Himself in another person other than these three?

Prior to Christ the Jews only understood God’s unity and oneness. And they were right to do so. God had not revealed his triune nature to them. Nevertheless, if the had said, “There is one and only one person in God,” they would be wrong. They would be going beyond the information that had been revealed to them.

If we teach that there are three and only three persons, are we similarly going beyond the information God has revealed?
 
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threej_lc:
If there were more then three, a baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would be invalid.
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I don’t see why. Please elaborate.
 
Racer X:
I’m not convinced that you understood the question. I have not questioned whether there is only one God. And I know that the church has taught “definitively on the Trinity.” But has the Church taught that there are definitely no more persons in God than Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Does the Church teach that God will NEVER reveal Himself in another person other than these three?

Prior to Christ the Jews only understood God’s unity and oneness. And they were right to do so. God had not revealed his triune nature to them. Nevertheless, if the had said, “There is one and only one person in God,” they would be wrong. They would be going beyond the information that had been revealed to them.

If we teach that there are three and only three persons, are we similarly going beyond the information God has revealed?
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We must be talking past each other, because I do understand your question and I have pointed out that yes the Church teaches definitively (which you asked about) that there is only a Trinity.

If the Church teaches the Trinity is DOGMA (which it does), then it cannot change, there will be no further revelation about this.

We can be confident that there cannot be anything further because Christ came and fulfilled the prophesies. During the time of the Jews, in the OT, the prophesy was unfulfilled…we see the fulfillment in the NT.

Christ established the Church, …Christ guides the Church to this day…the Church cannot make error when it comes to faith and morals.

SV
 
Baptism brings us into the divine Sonship of God(in the name of the Father), by dying to self and sin with Christ(and of the son), granting us sanctifying grace(and of the holy spirit). By doing so, we enter into the body of christ, that is, the church, which is God’s work here on earth.

We can’t be acting en persona dei (in the person of God) if we only have been consecrated to 3 out of the 4 persons present, or whatever. Our baptism is a total consecrate and union with God, fulfilled in the sacrament of the Eucharist. We can’t be fully consecrated to Him if the consecration is not complete (to not all the persons present). Similarly, the eucharist would be inappropriate to receive because we would unknowingly be communing with an unkown entity. That is not what the love and intimacy of communion is about.

Sorry I can’t make a better explanation.
 
St Veronica:
There is only ONE God…and there are 3 ‘expressions’ of the one God.

Think of it like this. Water is expressed in the form of fluid, ice and steam…but they are all water.

The Church absolutely teaches there is only a Trinity, no more no less. Anything else is heresy.
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I think this is a bit off on what the Church teaches.

There is only One God but there are three persons not three expressions.
 
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ByzCath:
I think this is a bit off on what the Church teaches.

There is only One God but there are three persons not three expressions.
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Yes I know…it was a bad choice of wording…

SV
 
St Veronica:
There is only ONE God…and there are 3 ‘expressions’ of the one God.

Think of it like this. Water is expressed in the form of fluid, ice and steam…but they are all water.

SV
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And THAT explaination is the Heresy of Modalism. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity caliming that the three Persons are various Expressions or Modes of Being which God has use to reveal Himself. That is Heresy.

The Father is not an “Expression” of God. The Father IS God. Ther Son is not an Expression of God. The Son IS God. The Holy Spirit is not an Expression of God. The Holy Spirit IS God. All Three Distinct Persons are God Whole and Entire and all at the same time.
 
St Veronica:
If the Church teaches the Trinity is DOGMA (which it does), then it cannot change, there will be no further revelation about this.
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I understand that it is dogma and that dogma do not change. The Church has been made the custodian of the deposit of faith which is comprised of true facts about reality. Of course these facts do not change. They are a matter of objective reality, not opinion.

But there is an enormous amount of facts which have NOT been entrusted to the Church but which are true nonetheless. For instance, whether God has become Incarnate on another world for another race of beings–either it has happened or it has not. But the Church does not have the answer. It is not part of the public revelation. The Church dogmatically teaches that there has in fact been one Incarnation but she CANNOT teach that Jesus is the one and only Incarnation of God. It has not been revealed.

Please note that I am not arguing that there are more than three persons in God. But the two statements

(1) There are three persons in one God.
(2) There are three and only three persons in one God.

are not equivalent. So far I have only seen Church statements of form (1), not (2).
 
St Veronica:
Yes I know…it was a bad choice of wording…

SV
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Sorry I should have read through the whole thread before I posted. But you are right it was a bad choice of words. Modalism is the most common Theological Error and the easiest to fall into because of the limitations of language. That is why the Church DEFINED the Trinity with very specific wording. And it IS a DEFINITION. Any other wording would be a differant definition.
 
JMJ

TO: Racer X,

I do understand your question, and I believe that most of the responders in the above posts understand your question. It seems that you do not understand that a doctrine, a dogma, which has been confirmed by Divine Revelation (Christ in the New Testament), held to be True by Sacred Tradition, and has been defined by the Magisterium of the Church (as the Trinity is by all three), must be believed by all Catholics as a True doctrine of Faith. It may not be eliminated, it may not be diluted, and it may not be expanded. Your proposition that there may be more persons in the One God other than the Three as Divinely Revealed is heresy. That restriction is defined by the Church through the requirement that dogma may not be changed. To propose additional persons is to change the dogma. The understanding of doctrine may and is expanded throughout the history of the Church, but additional persons would clearly be a change, not a clarification.
 
Mr. Cooney is right. There are THREE persons in the Trinity and NO MORE. There can NEVER be more than THREE. This is a revealed dogma of the Church. It is fixed for all time.
 
St Veronica:
More, from the Catechism

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
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I agree totally. Let me add that Frank Sheed explains it philosophically and expertly in “A Map of Life:” (Paraphrasing…)

The omnipotence of God, who is one, timeless, being is such that His idea is already objective reality.

The Father’s knowledge of Himself is perfect and complete.
His self-image, His idea of Himself IS the second Person, the Son, who proceeds from the Father.

The Father and the Son love each other perfectly, completely and in equal measure. The love shared between the Father and Son, that perfect, complete, unchanging, eternal idea IS the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father AND the Son.

It is the nature of God to be three persons.
 
Excellent discussion! Isn’t it also fair to add that if there were *more * than exactly three persons in the Trinity, and that fact had not yet been revealed to us, then that contradicts the Church’s understanding that Divine Revelation was *completed * by the time of the death of the last apostle?
 
To sum up, the Church does teach that there are three and only three Persons in One God!

JimG
 
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