*Exactly* three persons in one God?

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Racer X:
I know, SV. I think you don’t understand the question. I well understand the Trinity. I am asking if the Church teaches definitively if God consists of only Father, Son and Holy Ghost and no other person, or if it is an open and unanswered question with the deposit of faith.
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My understanding is that the Church teaches that all the revelation that man is to receive from God has already been received. While that means there will not be any more, it doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be more things about God that He has not chosen to reveal to man, for His own reasons. Humanity can never fully understand the omnicience, omnipotence and transcendence of God.

I don’t doubt for a minute that there is more to God than has been revealed to man. However I believe that He has revealed to us all that He plans to, and that His revelation is sufficient for our salvation.

Whether that means that when we finally enter into the presence of God we might find out that there are more than three Divine persons, I have no idea. :confused:

But I hope that I can ask Him about it someday. 😉

Blessings.
 
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OhioBob:
Whether that means that when we finally enter into the presence of God we might find out that there are more than three Divine persons, I have no idea. :confused:
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It has been revealed by God that there are EXACTLY three persons, no more, no less. We must assent to this truth by faith. It is as certain as ‘Jesus had a divine nature’ or ‘Jesus is consubstantial with the Father’.
 
Racer X:
I understand that it is dogma and that dogma do not change. The Church has been made the custodian of the deposit of faith which is comprised of true facts about reality. Of course these facts do not change. They are a matter of objective reality, not opinion.

But there is an enormous amount of facts which have NOT been entrusted to the Church but which are true nonetheless. For instance, whether God has become Incarnate on another world for another race of beings–either it has happened or it has not. But the Church does not have the answer. It is not part of the public revelation. The Church dogmatically teaches that there has in fact been one Incarnation but she CANNOT teach that Jesus is the one and only Incarnation of God. It has not been revealed.

Please note that I am not arguing that there are more than three persons in God. But the two statements

(1) There are three persons in one God.
(2) There are three and only three persons in one God.

are not equivalent. So far I have only seen Church statements of form (1), not (2).
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If you believe that there is more than one incarnation of Jesus then that’s heresy, more-over 3 Divine Persons in the One God, Devine, who can understand Devine ? Anyway if you can’t get past the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, then anyone would have a hard time believing anything, it’s called faith.
An Atheist persisted in questioning me one day,after he questioned me for weeks, he always started the conversation, for one that didn’t believe he sure asked a lot of questions.
Anyway Racer X in the end I told him if you want to know what I believe, then recite the Apostles Creed, it’s all in there, so I suggest you do the same.
After that there is nothing more to explain, period.
 
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ServusChristi:
It has been revealed by God that there are EXACTLY three persons, no more, no less. We must assent to this truth by faith. It is as certain as ‘Jesus had a divine nature’ or ‘Jesus is consubstantial with the Father’.
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You’re preaching to the choir, SC. I’m not arguing that point. That is my belief as well.

My point was that while the Catholic church teaches that in it is the fullness of God’s revelation to man - as in we didn’t miss any of it and there won’t be any more coming - I accept the possibility that there might be things about God that He chose not to reveal to man. That is merely a recognition of God’s transcendence.

Saying that we have already received all the revelation there will be does not necessarily preclude the fact that we may not know everything about God in this life. We will only know the totality of God if and when we make it to heaven.

That was the point I was trying to make, and I think the part of the point that Racer X was driving at.

Blessings.
 
Racer X:
Prior to Christ the Jews only understood God’s unity and oneness.
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I’m sure the main topic has been answered already… I’m just here to add to the statement I quoted.

Prior to Christ, God expressed his oneness but not a singular one. He would always refer to Himself with a plural ‘one.’

Deuteronomy 6:4 reads "Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is one.

In the Hebrew text it reads “Sumay Yisrael, Adonai el neyhu, Adonai ehad.” Sorry if I spelled some of the words wrong. My Hebrew is in need of work.

The last word “ehad” means ‘one’ but not singular ‘one’, it is a plural ‘one’. The singular word for one is ‘yahi.’ God referred to Himself with the plural word for one. (I.e. one group of apples)

On a final note, I think there will always be three regardless of how God presents Himself, Father, Son (sometimes known as the Word) or Holy Ghost.
 
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OhioBob:
You’re preaching to the choir, SC. I’m not arguing that point. That is my belief as well.

My point was that while the Catholic church teaches that in it is the fullness of God’s revelation to man - as in we didn’t miss any of it and there won’t be any more coming - I accept the possibility that there might be things about God that He chose not to reveal to man. That is merely a recognition of God’s transcendence.

Saying that we have already received all the revelation there will be does not necessarily preclude the fact that we may not know everything about God in this life. We will only know the totality of God if and when we make it to heaven.

Blessings.
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We will certainly learn more about God. But one thing we will not learn is that God is other than what He has revealed.
 
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metal1633:
We will certainly learn more about God. But one thing we will not learn is that God is other than what He has revealed.
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I’m not saying that he will be other, but maybe he will be more. Who knows.

Blessings.
 
I see that many of you are of the impression that the Church teaches that there are exactly three persons in one God, and no more than three. That is what I would like to find out, **but as yet I have seen no official statement to that effect. **

I personally am of no opinion as to whether there are any other persons within God beyond the three revealed to His Church. I’m just curious as to whether the Church has made a definitive statement on this question or not.

Again, I say that unless God explicitly told us so, it would be extremely conceited to assume–given there are more than one person in God–that He has revealed all His personalities to us humans.
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hawkeye:
If you believe that there is more than one incarnation of Jesus then that’s heresy,
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I don’t believe that there has been more than one incarnation of God. I can’t say one way or the other. But I strongly doubt that it is heresy. Has the Church really proclaimed that out of the gazillion stars out there it is a certainty that God has taken the form of a creature on this planet only?

If turns out there has been lively debate for centuries about the hypothetical existence of extraterrestials, the significance of the earthly Christ-event for them, whether they would be in a fallen state or not, and whether there might be other Incarnations for other races’ sakes. In short, the Church has not declared that the Christ-Incarnation is a unique event in the entire history of the Universe. But it is certainly unique within human history.
 
Look at it like this. We are reqired to believe everything that is taught from public revelation, which ended with the death of St. John. We are required to believe anything that the church defines as dogma, but that is based in part on public revelation. We are not required to beleive anything from private revelation, things shown to individuals.

Now then, Scripture only lists or mentions three persons in the Trinity. No more, no less. Sacred tradition does as well. It may not say that there are ONLY three, but it would not need to. Why? Because any revealing of another person would be private revelation and not binding. If God was four or more, that would have been publicly revealed, because ALL of the Devine persons are involved in the salvation of man. The father sent the son who died and rose and sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. It would make no sense to leave someone at home, so to speak.

I hope that helps
 
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ralphinal:
Now then, Scripture only lists or mentions three persons in the Trinity. No more, no less. Sacred tradition does as well. It may not say that there are ONLY three, but it would not need to. Why? Because any revealing of another person would be private revelation and not binding. If God was four or more, that would have been publicly revealed, because ALL of the Devine persons are involved in the salvation of man. The father sent the son who died and rose and sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. It would make no sense to leave someone at home, so to speak.
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Don’t you think that such a statement is a little conceited? Are you really sure that man is so important that ALL the Divine Persons are involved in his salvation? Where is that written?

I think one should be very careful when speculating beyond what has been revealed. The Christian idea of God is finite and limited. The Living God is infinite and beyond human understanding. Don’t confuse the idea with the reality.

I am faithful to the Church of Christ, submissive to the magisterium. If the Church has indeed said that there only three, I would certainly affirm it. But if not, I would not say anything for certain beyond what has been revealed. If you stand back and look at the Christian faith with fresh eyes, you will find that if anything it is surprising and not what anyone would expect. (Which is why I entertain no doubt that it is not a human invention.) Who can say that there may not be more surprises?

Public revelation is complete only in the sense that there will be no further public revelation until the Second Coming, which is by definition the next public revelation. Who can say what we will learn after that?
 
In the old testament God did not explicitly reveal Himself as triune, but the new testament seems quite explicit. God is indeed a trinity of persons.
Though the old testament is not explicit on the matter I do believe there is implicit revelation of the Trinity. When Abraham is told his wife will concieve a child in her old age he is met with a theophany which is triune, remember that he is met by three men(messangers of God) to whom Abraham says ‘Lord.’ He also has a similar experience prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah.
Perhaps the better revelation is found in Isaiah(?) where in a vision of the heavenly court the angels sing praise to God ‘Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God almighty.’ This same vision is experiened by the John in the book of Revelations.
This may seem like minor evidence, but it is that none the less.
The saying of the Fathers is true- ‘The new testament is hidden in the old, and the old testament points to the new.’
On another point, if there be more persons in the Godhead then we make Christ out to be a liar, and thus not God. For He would have revealed falsehood to His people.:whacky:
 
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tobias:
On another point, if there be more persons in the Godhead then we make Christ out to be a liar, and thus not God.
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Christ revealed that there are three persons. (And not in so many words, as it took three centuries for the Church to work out the Trinity.) That would not be contradicted by there being more.

I am sure that many passages can be found that suggest that there only three, but I am not comfortable going so far as to make such certain statements about God if it has not been explicitly revealed. The kinds of arguments given here so far are suspiciously reminiscent of the kind that Muslims and other Unitarians use to show that God is strictly Unity.

Personally, I humbly refrain from making any close-ended statements about God, assuming what God is-not based on what He we know He that is. I know that there is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Beyond that I, personally, can say nothing further.

But if there are any dogmatic statements made by the Church stating that there are three and only three, I’d be interested to know.
 
Racer X, do you think it is possible that the reason you have never seen an official Church statement saying “three and only three” is that it never crossed anyone’s mind that they would be called upon to clarify that a Trinity is a group of three? (If that sounded condescending, I’m sorry–totally not my intent. Just saying I don’t think your question occurred, for instance, to the compilers of the Catechism, etc.)
 
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meep:
Racer X, do you think it is possible that the reason you have never seen an official Church statement saying “three and only three” is that it never crossed anyone’s mind that they would be called upon to clarify that a Trinity is a group of three?
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No. I am sure that the authors of the Catechism, for instance, are well acquainted with the Summa Theologica where Aquinas asks Whether there are more than three persons in God? However, Aquinas’ speculations, though valuable, are not dogma.

I would conclude that if there is silence on the matter, it is just that–silence.
 
What sort of official statement are you looking for?

The catechism says it’s DOGMA. Do you think the catechism is wrong?

Will you accept the Bible? The Trinity The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Don’t you think Jesus would of mentioned if there was another deity?

Have you ready anything from the first council of Nicea? I think that is where the Trinity was defined.

Here’s some links for you to read as well:

catholic.com/library/god_in_three_persons.asp

catholic.com/library/eternal_sonship_of_christ.asp

catholic.com/library/one_true_god.asp

catholic.com/library/can_dogma_develop.asp

catholic.com/library/great_heresies.asp

SV
 
May I ask a question that we might not be able to answer? If there were more than three persons in God, why not reveil them all? The Trinity is hard enough, but would it be any harder than a God made of four or more devine persons, all one in substance?

Second, saying that man’s salvation is so important as to involve all of God is no more conceited than saying that God took on human form, like us in all things but sin, and then suffered one of the most brutal, horrible deaths possible for our sin. None of the Divine persons ever act without the other two, so all of God is involved in different roles.
 
If there’s an official statement from the Church that “God is Triune” or “God is Trinity”, then that’s probably the closest thing to “there are three and only three persons in God”. The Athanasian Creed contains something like it.

The reason is that term “trinity” denotes a group of three. Anything more than three is excluded. In the same way, the term “triangle” excludes a polygon with more than three angles.
 
Racer X:
No. I am sure that the authors of the Catechism, for instance, are well acquainted with the Summa Theologica where Aquinas asks Whether there are more than three persons in God? However, Aquinas’ speculations, though valuable, are not dogma.

I would conclude that if there is silence on the matter, it is just that–silence.
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I wasn’t aware that he addressed that–you’re better-read than me. 🙂

However, I was talking about clarification that “Trinity” meant three. A trinity is a group of exactly three things. Hence the “tri”. If it were possible that there were more persons in God, I doubt that they would say God is a trinity, but would instead say God includes a trinity or is at least a trinity. “Is” is a statement of identity. At least, that’s how I read it.

Augustine, in De Trinitate (if I remember correctly), has some insights into why exactly three persons are necessary. Again, not infallible, but just more evidence.

But let me ask you, if you could ask the Pope for an infallible statement on the matter, what would you expect the response to be?
 
St Veronica:
What sort of official statement are you looking for?
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Something like, “The Godhead is comprised of exactly three Persons, no more, no less.”
The catechism says it’s DOGMA. Do you think the catechism is wrong?
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That would be the sort of thing I’m looking for. Please provide the paragraph number.
Don’t you think Jesus would of mentioned if there was another deity?
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That is like Jews saying, if there were more persons than one in God, don’t you think He would have revealed it to Moses? I don’t make any presumptions about what God would and would not reveal to us; I only know what He has revealed: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Beyond that I can say nothing with certainty.
 
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ralphinal:
Second, saying that man’s salvation is so important as to involve all of God is no more conceited than saying that God took on human form, like us in all things but sin, and then suffered one of the most brutal, horrible deaths possible for our sin.
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Except in the latter case it has been explicitly revealed to us. There can be no argument about it. It is right there in the Scriptures and in the creed.

The conclusion that there are no more than three persons in the Godhead is just that – a conclusion, an inference. It is an inference that I choose to refrain from – unless the Church proclaims it as dogma, which I am not convinced has been done.
 
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