*Exactly* three persons in one God?

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The Athanasian Creed says “the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord, yet they are not three Lords but one Lord, for as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Christian religion to say that there are three Gods or three Lords…all three Persons are coequal and coeternal, and accordingly, as stated above, three Persons are to be worshipped in one Godhead and one God is to be worshipped in three Persons. Whoever wishes to be saved must think thus about the Trinity.” No more, no less
 
OK, I think I understand. So Augustine is saying that GOD is three male persons in one, since he calls each Lord.
 
Ah, I think I understand better now. Godhead. So, the Trinity is the HEAD of GOD and the rest of the BODY is? God the Mother.
 
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Myhrr:
OK, I think I understand. So Augustine is saying that GOD is three male persons in one, since he calls each Lord.
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I DO hope you are trying to be cute and/or facetious, as ill-advised as that is when “touching holy things” .

“LORD” has nothing to do with gender, it is not lord as in “lord & lady”. LORD reflects the unutterable Divine Name and the reign of God. To say “Jesus is LORD” is to identify Him with God, NOT to make a point of His male-ness. God does not have gender except as the 2nd Person of the Trinity bears our humanity in His risen and glorified Body on the throne of God. The “fatherhood” of God the Father does not involve “male-ness”----I expect it is heresy even to contemplate such a thing–Moses says of God in Numbers 23:19 “God is not a Man that He should lie, nor a son of man that he should change His mind”—you are thinking of the Trinity as “persons” in altogether the wrong terms: I’m a person, you’re a person, with separate essences as rational individual beings [1 + 1 = 2]. That is not how God is. While the Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinct rational individual Personae-Hypostases [the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Father, The Father is NOT the Holy Spirit, The Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father, the Holy Spirit is NOT the Son] these three Personae all have one and the same divine Essence and Power [the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is God]. While the Three are distinguished, not just in theory or as ideas but in reality, they are in Essence numerically One. [1 + 1 + 1 = 1] This is the Catholic Faith. I do not pretend to understand it, I just believe it. That’s why it’s called “Faith”

“Myrrh” BTW as in “Gold, Frankenscense and MYRRH”
 
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headman13:
Three are distinguished, not just in theory or as ideas but in reality, they are in Essence numerically One. [1 + 1 + 1 = 1] This is the Catholic Faith. I do not pretend to understand it, I just believe it. That’s why it’s called “Faith”
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Make that 1x1x1=1 and you got it.
 
All attempts to explain the Holy and Ever-Blessed Trinity are necessarily incomplete and imperfect; as St. Paul says “now we know only in part”…read my story about St. Augustine up towards the top of the thread. None the less the example of 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is an accurate counter balance to the idea of 1 + 1 = 2 preceding it in the paragraph. 1 x 1 would also equal one, this is not what our friend Myrrh was implying in his/her saying “3 separate lords…”
 
"I DO hope you are trying to be cute and/or facetious, as ill-advised as that is when “touching holy things”

Holy things for the holy, should I be scared of your judgement?

““LORD” has nothing to do with gender, it is not lord as in “lord & lady”. LORD reflects the unutterable Divine Name and the reign of God. To say “Jesus is LORD” is to identify Him with God, NOT to make a point of His male-ness. God does not have gender except as the 2nd Person of the Trinity bears our humanity in His risen and glorified Body on the throne of God.”

Hmm, so image and likeness as male and female isn’t gender?

“The “fatherhood” of God the Father does not involve “male-ness”----I expect it is heresy even to contemplate such a thing–Moses says of God in Numbers 23:19 “God is not a Man that He should lie, nor a son of man that he should change His mind”—”

If you think it’s a heresy to even contemplate such a thing I respectfully suggest you don’t read my posts, nor contemplate further those particular words of Moses …

"you are thinking of the Trinity as “persons” in altogether the wrong terms: I’m a person, you’re a person, with separate essences as rational individual beings [1 + 1 = 2]. That is not how God is. While the Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinct rational individual Personae-Hypostases… …these three Personae all have one and the same divine Essence and Power [the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is God]. While the Three are distinguished, not just in theory or as ideas but in reality, they are in Essence numerically One. [1 + 1 + 1 = 1] "

And I think RacerX was asking if was definitely forbidden, by your Church, to propose 1+1+1+1+1+1=1, for example.

“This is the Catholic Faith. I do not pretend to understand it, I just believe it. That’s why it’s called “Faith””

I am reading that as coming from an RCC and wonder if you mean here 'faith in the RCC and magesterium rather than The Faith of the Catholic Church which is as the Nicene/Constantinople creed, which particular Faith of the RCC is disputed by the Orthodox by the way. It’s this statement which defines the Trinity, not any interpretation of it. However, none of the terms used in this definition have, to my knowledge, been discussed by the early fathers let alone defined.

I think the word used, Father, came to the Jews from Egypt. A recent piece written by a practicing Jew suggested the possibility that Ruach became the replacement for the feminine representation of GOD during the repression of Goddess worship. An example of this conflict is the reply given by the women to Jeremiah that not only they, but their kings and fathers have always worshipped the Queen of Heaven with cakes etc., they appear to remember the generations back, and while doing so no harm had come to Jerusalem. He was trying to blame the misfortunes on this worship.

Jeremiah 44:17
But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

So a long standing tradition in Jerusalem of worshipping the Goddess person. All the way back to Melchesidek? The King of Peace.

“Myrrh” BTW as in “Gold, Frankenscense and MYRRH”

As in Gold, FRANKINCENSE and Myhrr… :confused: 😛
 
Of course “image and likeness” have nothing to do with male and female; to try and make God in our human image like that is Idolatry of the basest sort. The likeness of God before the Fall consists of being made a “living soul”, endowed with judgment and will, a rational being, who in their undepraved state, i.e. before the Fall, were capable of knowing God and desiring only what God desired; in their original incorrupt state humanity was entirely upright in all their endowments, powers and attributes; in intellect, will, corporeal affections and all things perfect. That’s the Image of God in humanity and as you will observe it is this image which is corrupted by the Fall into Sin.

As for the “Queen of Heaven worship” that you mention in Jeremiah 44:17, it is part of the heathen idolatry for which Israel was justly condemned by the prophets.It is diametrically opposed to the service of the God of Israel. If you read on it is excoriated and condemned in the most blistering terms by the prophets, that’s what Jeremiah is doing in the passage you mention. Indeed in verse 17 the people explicitly reject the message of Jeremiah. Jeremiah 44: 22 “When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became the object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants…because you have burned incense and sinned against the Lord your God…”

The idea of Ruach-Spirit or Breath being a feminine noun has nothing to do with this pagan worship. Gender in Language has nothing to do with actual “sex”—in most languages words have gender without meaning sex. Thus in French a “Table” is Feminine and in German “Table” is Masculine, neither refers to the sex of a table.

It is a common scriptural idea that the Holy Spirit “comforts us as a Mother comforts her children” but it has nothing in common with the Apostasy of Israel that led to her downfall and the destruction of the Temple in the time of Jeremiah.

As for the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Bible mentions God consistently as Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Church–beFORE there was ever East or West- interpreted the Scripture passages as referring to one God in three divine Personae. The Church does not speculate about God beyond God’s own revelation of God’s self. This would be dangerous and unwise.

I am a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creed, but not the Roman variety. Thanks for the compliment.

As for heresy, that’s between you and God. Have a nice day.
 
“Of course “image and likeness” have nothing to do with male and female; to try and make God in our human image like that is Idolatry of the basest sort.”

You are of course entitled to think what you want, but Genesis I contradicts you. The Church has always taught that we are created in the image and likeness of God, male and female. I made the distinction earlier between GOD and God, which helps me think about these things, so I’m calling GOD that which cannot be described, not this not this, and God the Creator etc. that which can be described. We’re taught that we cannot know GOD except through His energies and it’s through these energies that we are created in the image and likeness of God, so that’s male and female as it distinctly says in Genesis I.

" The likeness of God before the Fall consists of being made a “living soul”, endowed with judgment and will, a rational being, who in their undepraved state, i.e. before the Fall, were capable of knowing God and desiring only what God desired; in their original incorrupt state humanity was entirely upright in all their endowments, powers and attributes; in intellect, will, corporeal affections and all things perfect. That’s the Image of God in humanity and as you will observe it is this image which is corrupted by the Fall into Sin."

Perhaps so, but what we’re actually told is that God created us “in our image and likeness” and defined that by sex only. The rest, such as your analysis, is commentary.

"As for the “Queen of Heaven worship” that you mention in Jeremiah 44:17, it is part of the heathen idolatry for which Israel was justly condemned by the prophets.It is diametrically opposed to the service of the God of Israel. If you read on it is excoriated and condemned in the most blistering terms by the prophets, that’s what Jeremiah is doing in the passage you mention. Indeed in verse 17 the people explicitly reject the message of Jeremiah. Jeremiah 44: 22 “When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became the object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants…because you have burned incense and sinned against the Lord your God…”

I found a reference to the “Guide for a correct presentation of Jews and the Jewish religion in the Preaching and Catechesis of the Catholic Church” (1985), which said it encourages respectful exploration of the common heritage of Jews and Christians. I haven’t looked at the actual document.

Who is the God of Israel? At his time it was still El, the highest God of the Canaanite pantheon, father of the gods, of humankind and his consort was Athirat. The Jews took over the use of this name, El Elyon lord of all the gods from the Canaanites for their one God. This El Elyon, of whom Melchisedek was King and High Priest, was recognised by Abraham. Abram’s God was probably El Shaddai, God of the mountains, also a Canaanite God, but as common in that part of the world then, each city or area had its own God. El is incorporated into many Jewish names, Israel, Elisha, for example.

Athirat is the Canaanite Goddess the “good mother”, “bright mother”, also known as Asherah, Wisdom.

goddessgift.com/goddess_names.htm

Jeremiah was talking to the Jews in Egypt where he’d fled, the women replied that they continued to worship the queen of heaven as had their fathers, kings and princes in all the cities of Judah and in Jerusalem, perhaps by this time the worship of the Goddess had ceased in Judah and Jerusalem in which case it could be that the reason for the misfortune was the suppression of this worship. Perhaps there’s some here who have more knowledge of these biblical events, but when I asked some orthodox Jews about this they, like Jeremiah, couldn’t give a reply to the women.

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“The idea of Ruach-Spirit or Breath being a feminine noun has nothing to do with this pagan worship. Gender in Language has nothing to do with actual “sex”—in most languages words have gender without meaning sex. Thus in French a “Table” is Feminine and in German “Table” is Masculine, neither refers to the sex of a table.”

The suggestion that Ruach replaced the feminine aspect of God when Goddess worship was suppressed came from a practising Jew. The idea that Abraham was the first monotheist doesn’t fit what we know of his times and areas, by worshipping El he was worshipping the highest God of several, others worshipped their own God particular to their area. The story told of him at a very young age breaking the idols his father made where as likely to be ancestral images as idols. It wasn’t until the Talmud that the Jews began to formalise a transcendant God apart from immanent, according to another practicing Jew.

It is a common scriptural idea that the Holy Spirit “comforts us as a Mother comforts her children” but it has nothing in common with the Apostasy of Israel that led to her downfall and the destruction of the Temple in the time of Jeremiah."

You were there? I’m sorry but I don’t think it’s that clear at all. There was a ‘patriarchal’ strain that came to dominate in Judaism, women didn’t have the equality of some others in the history of the ancient Near East and neighbouring areas. The same Jewish source I mentioned earlier suggested that Sarah could have been a priestess, not only because Ur and Haran were centres of Goddess worship but also because her actions with regard to Hagar followed the laws prescribed for a priestess in the situations she found herself in, as detailed in the ancient Code of Hammurabi, such as offering her maid to bear Abraham’s children and then in her treatment of Hagar when she became overbearing by dimishing Sarah.

And, dare I say it, the history of the Church influenced particularly by those early fathers like Jerome had a continuing hold on the Church in the West. Who was it and how long ago did someone come to the conclusion that women didn’t have souls? I don’t remember.

This particular kind of thinking predominated in the West. Mary Magdalen is thought of as a prostitute, decided by one of the early Gregories I think, while in the East she is still known as St Mary Magdalene Equal-to-the-Apostles. Many of the other women saints are called that in the East. Christ encouraged the women, St Photini Equal-to-the-Apostles is the Samaritan women he met at the well. St Nina Equal-to-the-Apostles is the Enlightener of Georgia. Perhaps the idea of GOD in a feminine principle isn’t as strange to some Christians. The Orthodox remember that the Mother of God entered the Holy of Holies.

Actually I find it interesting that in the arguments about the Immaculate Conception dogma it’s the Orthodox who insist that the RCC have it wrong because it puts Mary into a position other than a normal created creature just like the rest of us, turning Her into a sort of goddess.

“As for the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Bible mentions God consistently as Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Church–beFORE there was ever East or West- interpreted the Scripture passages as referring to one God in three divine Personae. The Church does not speculate about God beyond God’s own revelation of God’s self. This would be dangerous and unwise.”

No harm in speculating, I think the harm comes when one man’s speculation is forced onto another against his will. The Church teaches that knowing God is experiencing God for oneself in working to acquire the Holy Spirit, not speculating as if on an object.

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“As for heresy, that’s between you and God. Have a nice day.”

You were the one concerned that it was heresy, so it’s between you and God. I suggested that if it worried you then it would be better not to read my posts, but I’m enjoying your replies so I hope it’s not too much of a worry for you. Thank you, you too.
 
You completely disregard the historical content of the entire universal prophetic condemnation of the worship of the gods of the Canaanites, to whom indeed the ancestors of Jeremiah’s hearers had prostituted themselves and for whom the prophets had uttered judgement after judgement from God. Elijah had condemned Jezebel for leading the people astray, the dogs ate her body. The prophetic condemnation continues througout the apostasy of both kingdoms in all the prophets. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one true God Who reveals Himself in Scripture first “to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways” and then “in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son Whom He appointed heir of all things and through Whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s Glory” Hebrews 1:2-3. You may “speculate” all you want, but you must not confuse these modern feminist ideas of “godess” worship etc. with anything but the paganism they represent. They most assuredly do not represent the truths revealed in Scripture and taught by Our Lord, the Apostles and the Fathers.
 
And of course I think you’re the one disregarding historical context. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the God of the Melchisedek, El Elyon, Father of humanity, the Highest God and this God had a consort, the Good Mother, Wisdom, Queen of Heaven…

Jerusalem continued to be non Jewish for around five hundred years after their arrival in Canaan, biblical chronology. David decided to take it for his capital because he thought he had a better chance of getting the other tribes to rally around him if he moved the capital out of his own area. Jerusalem had not been conquered by the Israelites, and I think, according to the Bible, was not claimed by Joshua or his hordes so was not part of the Israelite lands and continued to be independent with its own Kings from the line of Melchisedek. However it is included in the covenant with Abraham.

Even when David attacked it and took it for himself he didn’t change anything there. The worship of the Goddess, consort of the Highest El continued.

I don’t consider the direction the Israelites went in destroying that Goddess worship to be a Christian direction since Christ for us is eternal King and High Priest forever of the order of Melchisedek.

Nor do I consider the spin the Israelites put on these events to be necessarily what actually happened. Calling this worship prostitution, whoring after etc. doesn’t quite gel with the dignified replies the Jewish women gave Jeremiah…

The creation story of Adam in Genesis II in which Eve is created from his rib is remarkably similar to the earlier Sumerian stories, except for the role reversal by cutting out all mention of the Mother Goddess who saves Enki from wasting away into death by creating a consort for him.

Your put down “modern feminist ideas” is really quite mild compared with some in your Church, have you read what Jerome thought of women? You might think these ideas are a modern invention, but I prefer to see them as the Mother’s continuing presence strengthening women from age to age against the continuing bullying from men.

Which came first, men or women? The human egg first develops as female, all men were women first…
 
Racer X:
I submitted this to the AAA forum a few days ago but it hasn’t shown up there.

Does the Church teach that there are three and only three persons within the one God? Or do we only say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons which have been revealed to the Church but leave open the question of whether there are more?

I would consider it a highly conceited position to assume that God has revealed Himself fully (in any of His aspects) to us mortals unless He has explicitly told us that He has done so.
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The theology of God is done thru a process called “progressive revelation.” He is revealed more and more as time goes on. For example, Adam didn’t hear of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

The formulation of the trinity and Godhead was very controversial; now we take it for granted. The important thing is a relationship with God through Jesus. I don’t feel it’s all that beneficial to argue about the details of the Godhead when we can’t fully comprehend it anyway…

…Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
 
*You might think these ideas are a modern invention, but I prefer to see them as the Mother’s continuing presence strengthening women from age to age against the continuing bullying from men.

Which came first, men or women? The human egg first develops as female, all men were women first…*

Whatever… The pagan gods are the very ones Abraham rejected when he came out of Haran and have nothing to do with his God. Those gods are the gods the prophets castigated Israel for prostituting themselves with. You would prostitute yourself to these pagan “gods & godesses” instead of serving the one true God Who reveals Himself in Jesus of Nazareth. . The God of Abraham told Moses “You shall no other gods before ME.” Elijah showed Which was the one true God and the dogs ate Jezebel’s corpse People will believe what they will… St. Paul says the same thing “their god is their belly…” You can think what you like but you cannot claim that ideas like yours reflect the truth of biblical faith or of Christian tradition. Full stop.
 
Whatever… The pagan gods are the very ones Abraham rejected when he came out of Haran and have nothing to do with his God.[/UNQUOTE]

Really? We only know that by report of those who had turned away from the Goddess and in their hate committed genocide of the peoples who did worship Her. What kind of God is that to follow?

What do we actually know about Abraham and his God except the name? El Shaddai, God of the Mountains, the God who first communicated with Abram. El is Canaanite and we do know that the Highest God of the Canaanites and understanding of that God included Goddess worship. And as the Jewish women atttested, it was this worship with incense and cakes and wine that continued down the centuries after Abraham’s acknowledgement of it in Jerusalem.

Which other Gods did he leave behind in Ur and Haran? We’re only told he recognised Melchesidek King and High Priest of the Highest God, El Elyon, in Jerusalem and we’re told that previous to this event he was directed by El Shaddai. Who were the Gods of his father?

Terah is said to have come from the other side of the flood. Have you read about the cataclysmic flooding of the Black Sea?

Those gods are the gods the prophets castigated Israel for prostituting themselves with. You would prostitute yourself to these pagan “gods & godesses” instead of serving the one true God Who reveals Himself in Jesus of Nazareth.[/UNQUOTE]

Steady on. We honour the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, not the God of Moses only and what that worship turned into and influenced by whom we can’t say for sure at the moment. What we do know from the Bible is that the God of Mt Sinai, YHWH, commanded not to kill and then commanded the utter slaughter of those who had El Elyon as their God. If you think I’m prostituting myself with the God of Melchesidek and Abraham of whom Christ is the eternal High Priest than what are you doing?
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The God of Abraham told Moses "You shall no other gods before ME.[/UNQUOTE]

Who?, or, So why are you going after strange Gods…? Current Jewish thinking is that there was no ‘Joshua event’ as such, but that this takeover of Canaan happened in stages over time.
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Elijah showed Which was the one true God and the dogs ate Jezebel’s corpse People will believe what they will… St. Paul says the same thing “their god is their belly…” You can think what you like but you cannot claim that ideas like yours reflect the truth of biblical faith or of Christian tradition. Full stop.[/UNQUOTE]

The God of Melchesidek was El Elyon and Athirat his consort. The Queen of Heaven continued to be worshipped in Jerusalem and don’t you think it ironic, considering your antagonism to my view, that the Queen of Heaven is the title you give to the Mother of God? So which claims do reflect the biblical faith or Christian tradition?
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You are singing the same song that all the false prophets, the apostate kings and false leaders sang to lead the Children of Israel into Idolatry and worship of False Gods. Read your Bible—Hosea especially, but all the prophets condemn the false gods you mention—and see the dreadful judgment that fell on an unfaithful and apostate people. “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” That’s the creed of Israel and the Catholic faith as well. Period. I have finished discussing this with you. Jesus said if people wouldn’t listen, to shake the dust off your feet and so have I done.
 
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headman13:
You are singing the same song that all the false prophets, the apostate kings and false leaders sang to lead the Children of Israel into Idolatry and worship of False Gods. Read your Bible—Hosea especially, but all the prophets condemn the false gods you mention—and see the dreadful judgment that fell on an unfaithful and apostate people.
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I don’t see any need to limit my thinking by rejecting everything else in the Bible, our growing understanding of history and especially our Church teaching that Christ sent us the Holy Spirit from the Father to guide us into all truth by some belief that the prophets were always infallible, you don’t even claim that for your Bishop of Rome!

The Jewish women Jeremiah was attacking with your arguments gave him an answer which ties in with what we know of the ancient Near East. If some sect of Judaism gained enough power over centuries to change the practice in Jerusalem and all the cities of Judah by eliminating the worship of the Queen of Heaven it doesn’t stand to reason that they succeeded because they had right on their side.
“Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” That’s the creed of Israel and the Catholic faith as well. Period.
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And I’m still asking ‘who is this one LORD?’

We know that the name of the Canaanite God is El Elyon, the Highest God, those are the same words still used for the one LORD our GOD by the Jews. All I’m trying to show here, with respect to the original question, is that the Trinity definition could have been founded on a patriarchal only model of GOD since there were those in the early Church who had dismissed women from the equation of GOD.

Is the GOD in Psalm 134 this same LORD of the prophets? It is clearly based on and comes from an earlier hymn to the Aten, the short lived monotheistic belief that the Sun was the One God and the pharoah Akhenaten his personification on earth, also called Father. A google search on Psalm 134 Akhenaten will give sites where this is discussed. Google
I have finished discussing this with you. Jesus said if people wouldn’t listen, to shake the dust off your feet and so have I done.
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I’m sorry my arguments have caused you grief, please forgive me.
 
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Myhrr:
I don’t see any need to limit my thinking by rejecting everything else in the Bible, our growing understanding of history and especially our Church teaching that Christ sent us the Holy Spirit from the Father to guide us into all truth by some belief that the prophets were always infallible, you don’t even claim that for your Bishop of Rome!

The Jewish women Jeremiah was attacking with your arguments gave him an answer which ties in with what we know of the ancient Near East. If some sect of Judaism gained enough power over centuries to change the practice in Jerusalem and all the cities of Judah by eliminating the worship of the Queen of Heaven it doesn’t stand to reason that they succeeded because they had right on their side.

And I’m still asking ‘who is this one LORD?’

We know that the name of the Canaanite God is El Elyon, the Highest God, those are the same words still used for the one LORD our GOD by the Jews. All I’m trying to show here, with respect to the original question, is that the Trinity definition could have been founded on a patriarchal only model of GOD since there were those in the early Church who had dismissed women from the equation of GOD.

Is the GOD in Psalm 134 this same LORD of the prophets? It is clearly based on and comes from an earlier hymn to the Aten, the short lived monotheistic belief that the Sun was the One God and the pharoah Akhenaten his personification on earth, also called Father. A google search on Psalm 134 Akhenaten will give sites where this is discussed. Google

I’m sorry my arguments have caused you grief, please forgive me.
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Mirr,

If you understand the meaning of God, there can only be one. You are making the mistake to believe that you can decide between many gods, but any other than the Living God (whose name is “I AM”) . He has been named with different name along history, but it is still the One Lord, The God of Abraham, Isac and Jacob Who happens to be the same as Yaweh, etc. etc.

Blessings,
J.C.
 
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