Examination of Conscience - Fr Robert Altier

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Examination of Conscience - Fr Robert Altier

I have been using this examination of conscience for nearly a year now. I would guess some other people here use it as well. What are your thoughts on the distinctions he makes between venial and mortal sins?

I struggle quite a bit with this. I have long been looking for an excellent examination of conscience, but it seems many of them do not agree on what sins are grave matter.

I go to confession once a month. I go to Mass at least twice a week. I go before the Blessed Sacrament once a week. I would like to believe that it is possible that I only have venial sin on my conscience, but I don’t like being ignorant.

I know it is hard to list every sin on paper, but I would like to know what you all think of this examination of conscience, or if you could suggest a better one.

Many thanks in advance!
 
hi,

i read fr.,s list of sins. it was a very complete and orthodox exam. of conscience. i believe every thing on fr.,s list could objectivly be mortaly sinful, however, we must remember the three things necessary
1 grevious matter
2 sufficient reflection
3 full consent

your confessor/director will be able to judge any iffy circumstances.

God bless,

johnco
 
The point is a lot of types of sin ARE grey areas as regards their gravity. It’s fairly obvious that stealing 5 cents is a venial sin, stealing a million bucks is grave matter, but there isn’t any natural or obvious point in between the two where it switches from one to the other.

That’s where confession is a help for two reasons. Firstly you can lay the circumstances before the priest and he can advise you. You can trust the priest’s advice as long as it’s not manifestly wrong, since obedience to authority (and your confessor has authority over you) is never wrong unless they advise or command something sinful.

Secondly you can obtain absolution for your sins regardless.

I think too many of us neglect to ask advice about sins we’re unsure of, for whatever reason.
 
LilyM said:
The point is a lot of types of sin ARE grey areas as regards their gravity. It’s fairly obvious that stealing 5 cents is a venial sin, stealing a million bucks is grave matter, but there isn’t any natural or obvious point in between the two where it switches from one to the other.
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Your example emphasizes your point: Stealing a nickel could be mortal just as stealing a million could be venial. The object [theft] is always wrong but the intent and circumstances can affect the gravity either way.

JSA+
 
Regarding grave matter – I’ve always wondered what the exact distinction between grave matter and not grave matter is.

Most of the time, one’s conscience is enough to determine this (murder is a mortal sin, but telling a white lie isn’t), but I wonder if there is any literature out there discussing “grave matter”.

By the way, I also use this examination of conscience.

Mat.
 
blackrobe said:
Your example emphasizes your point: Stealing a nickel could be mortal just as stealing a million could be venial. The object [theft] is always wrong but the intent and circumstances can affect the gravity either way.

JSA+
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Would you care to elaborate? Offhand there are no circumstances that I can think of that would possibly make stealing five cents a mortal sin - not unless you then proceed to fire said nickel out of a gun at someone and kill them, and then the sin is the murder and not the theft. 🤷

Mortal and venial are subjective - grave matter isn’t.

If you steal a million dollars and for you it’s a venial sin that’s not because the matter is anything other than grave. It would be because you’re lacking one of the other two requirements - either you don’t know that it’s grave matter or you aren’t freely consenting to doing it - your consent is hampered because your family is starving or you’re mad or what have you.
 
LilyM said:
Would you care to elaborate? Offhand there are no circumstances that I can think of that would possibly make stealing five cents a mortal sin - not unless you then proceed to fire said nickel out of a gun at someone and kill them, and then the sin is the murder and not the theft. 🤷

Mortal and venial are subjective - grave matter isn’t.

If you steal a million dollars and for you it’s a venial sin that’s not because the matter is anything other than grave. It would be because you’re lacking one of the other two requirements - either you don’t know that it’s grave matter or you aren’t freely consenting to doing it - your consent is hampered because your family is starving or you’re mad or what have you.
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It is not the amount of money that necessarily makes it a grave matter. Stealing a nickel from Warren Buffet is not the same matter as stealing a homeless person’s only nickel. Embezzling a million dollars from the legitimate business which employs you is not the same as swiping a million dollars in cash from the guy who is delivering it to a hit man in payment for killing someone.

My only point is that the* amount *of money has no “obvious” bearing on the gravity of the offense. Your example accords money a moral value in and of itself.

JSA+
 
blackrobe said:
It is not the amount of money that necessarily makes it a grave matter. Stealing a nickel from Warren Buffet is not the same matter as stealing a homeless person’s only nickel. Embezzling a million dollars from the legitimate business which employs you is not the same as swiping a million dollars in cash from the guy who is delivering it to a hit man in payment for killing someone.

My only point is that the* amount *of money has no “obvious” bearing on the gravity of the offense. Your example accords money a moral value in and of itself.

JSA+
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What is it about stealing a homeless guy’s only nickel that makes you think it grave? Ie that would totally wreck a person’s relationship with God if they did so?

A) It’s not like the homeless guy could buy anything with it anyway - you’re not taking away his means of buying food or lodging, because with only 5c he couldn’t possibly.

B) He’d need to beg for about five seconds to make another nickel. You’re not even ‘stealing’ much time from him either.

There’s always a solid reason WHY grave sins are grave. I don’t think stealing 5c under pretty much any circumstances would count. Including if it’s a homeless guy’s only 5c. I don’t think there’s a priest I know of who would say it was grave.
 
LilyM said:
What is it about stealing a homeless guy’s only nickel that makes you think it grave? Ie that would totally wreck a person’s relationship with God if they did so?

A) It’s not like the homeless guy could buy anything with it anyway - you’re not taking away his means of buying food or lodging, because with only 5c he couldn’t possibly.

B) He’d need to beg for about five seconds to make another nickel. You’re not even ‘stealing’ much time from him either.

There’s always a solid reason WHY grave sins are grave. I don’t think stealing 5c under pretty much any circumstances would count. Including if it’s a homeless guy’s only 5c. I don’t think there’s a priest I know of who would say it was grave.
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I guess my hypotheticals didn’t convey the point clearly. Let’s examine the issue directly in light of your propositions. You assert:
  1. Gravity of matter is an objective consideration
  2. In a theft of money, the amount stolen can determine the gravity without regard for other conditions.
  3. In at least two cases the amount necessarily determines the gravity regardless of other conditions.
It follows from the above that there must be an amount at which the matter becomes grave. Otherwise the determination of gravity by amount of money is subjective or depends on other considerations. Conclusion: amount of money in itself is insufficient to determine grave matter. The fact that one cannot imagine a hypothetical to illustrate this does not contradict the principle.

My point is this: The human act comprises three elements-- object, intent, and circumstances. The primary determinant of an act’s moral value is the object [who does what to whom.] Money, per se, has no moral value. Therefore it cannot of itself lend any moral value to an object, although it most certainly can be involved in the moral value of an object or act.

I believe your thinking was completely correct in your reply to the OP; you merely chose a less than ideal example.

Unless someone has a question for me I’ll leave it at that.

JSA+
 
I hope this post isn’t too old for a little bump, but I think Fr. Altier’s examen is excellent, with a few caveats.
  • “Selective reduction” of infants in the womb would better go under the 5th commandment I think.
  • Under the 7th Commandment listing of Mortal Sins, some of those might be venial if the amount stolen is small enough. E.g: Violating copyrights, pirating computer software, etc.
All in all, I think it’s an excellent examen, probably the best on the internet even.
 
Unfortunately that link is not readable on my Mac. Wish it were. Can someone give me the actual URL?
 
Thanks for the effort, ericka, but I think (given other previous attempts through other means and sites), that my Adobe needs updating and therefore is not reading it, since it’s a pdf file. Typing in that address came out still with unreadable code.
🙂
 
tvdxer said:
I hope this post isn’t too old for a little bump, but I think Fr. Altier’s examen is excellent, with a few caveats.
  • “Selective reduction” of infants in the womb would better go under the 5th commandment I think.
  • Under the 7th Commandment listing of Mortal Sins, some of those might be venial if the amount stolen is small enough. E.g: Violating copyrights, pirating computer software, etc.
All in all, I think it’s an excellent examen, probably the best on the internet even.
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Agreed but for an additional caveat: under the venial 1st Commandment, playing Dungeons and Dragons (or like games) is not inherently sinful, so it’d really only come into consideration under another heading a little bit above that (letting a hobby come before God). Or possibly under the 7th for squandering money.
 
LilyM said:
What is it about stealing a homeless guy’s only nickel that makes you think it grave? Ie that would totally wreck a person’s relationship with God if they did so?

A) It’s not like the homeless guy could buy anything with it anyway - you’re not taking away his means of buying food or lodging, because with only 5c he couldn’t possibly.

B) He’d need to beg for about five seconds to make another nickel. You’re not even ‘stealing’ much time from him either.

There’s always a solid reason WHY grave sins are grave. I don’t think stealing 5c under pretty much any circumstances would count. Including if it’s a homeless guy’s only 5c. I don’t think there’s a priest I know of who would say it was grave.
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What if it’s a super-hot day, say 110 in the shade; the homeless guy is really, really thirsty; and he had just managed to beg enough change from the hard-hearted commuters to be able to buy a Coke from a nearby vending machine, to quench his thirst; and along comes your bad self and grabs one of his nickels, just to be mean?

If your intention in stealing the nickel was to be cruel to someone you knew couldn’t fight back, seems like that would kick it over into the mortal sin category.
 
I’ve had a very wise and orthodox priest tell me before that it isn’t the actions themselves that is the “most sinful” thing about most specific sins… it’s the intention behind them… ie killing someone in defense of myself and my family wouldn’t be as sinful as taking the nickle from the homeless person… They both would need to be confessed, but after absolution and reparations made, it doesn’t really matter which one is “most sinful” as they have been absolved.

God Bless!
Ericka
 
ericka1701 said:
I’ve had a very wise and orthodox priest tell me before that it isn’t the actions themselves that is the “most sinful” thing about most specific sins… it’s the intention behind them… ie killing someone in defense of myself and my family wouldn’t be as sinful as taking the nickle from the homeless person… They both would need to be confessed, but after absolution and reparations made, it doesn’t really matter which one is “most sinful” as they have been absolved.

God Bless!
Ericka
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Well, the actual matter is a vital component of a sin too - ie there actually has to be ‘grave matter’ for it to be mortal sin.

But intent is critical too, as your priest points out. Remember that killing in self-defence (as long as it’s proportionate to the threat) is in fact absolutely legitimate, not a sin of any kind. ANY sin, therefore, even the very lowest on the venial end of the sin-o-meter (as stealing the nickel would quite possibly be) would indeed be worse.
 
LilyM said:
Well, the actual matter is a vital component of a sin too - ie there actually has to be ‘grave matter’ for it to be mortal sin.

But intent is critical too, as your priest points out. Remember that killing in self-defence (as long as it’s proportionate to the threat) is in fact absolutely legitimate, not a sin of any kind. ANY sin, therefore, even the very lowest on the venial end of the sin-o-meter (as stealing the nickel would quite possibly be) would indeed be worse.
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I am sure that he also mentioned the additional information you mentioned, but as it has been a few months since I heard it, and my memory about “important things” is usually a bit shady (but get me started on trivia (or trivial matters), and I am a walking computer)… I wish it were the other way around at times… :o

God Bless!
Ericka
 
Thank you for posting this link. I have been looking for something like this for a while.
 
Wow, nothing like a list like that to remind us of what sinners we really are, lol!

I could circle A LOT of those things on that list. Think the priest would be horrified if I went to my next Confession with the list in hand?
 
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