Examining Orthodox Theology

[ComeHome2Rome]

This thread seems to have strayed off topic from your original question. I hope to try and respond to your question itself and thereby pull at least part of this conversation back on topic.

As an Eastern Catholic who has worked for a number of years in Catholic-Orthodox ecumenical relation, I would echo more-or-less what our brother, Constantine, has said. Do not attempt to compare Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) theology to Roman/Latin Catholic theology. As someone else has so wisely pointed out, we not only go about theology in different ways, but we even ask different questions. This is due primarily because of differences in the historical and cultural developments that conditioned the Churches of the East and West (to say nothing of the Oriental Churches). So while we do hold to one and the same essential Faith, we express that Faith very differently to the point that, on the surface, we often seem to be contradicting one another.

Pope John Paul II encouraged all Catholics, and Roman Catholics in particular, to become familiar with, and to develop a deep love of, the traditions, spirituality, theology, and history of the Eastern Churches. Here he was speaking not so much of the Eastern Catholic Churches - although they are certainly implied - but of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches who are the Mother Churches of all the Eastern Catholic Churches (save the Maronites). So as an Eastern Catholic I would certainly encourage you to study both Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism.

To that end there are a number of things you can do. First, attend Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox parish at least on regular occasions (not necessarily every Sunday). Implied in such an attendance would also be attendance at the other liturgical (Liturgy of the Hours) and para-liturgical (akathists, molebens, paraklesis) services offered in most Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes. To really understand Eastern thought, theology, and spirituality, one has to be intimately familiar with the full liturgical life of the East, not just the Divine Liturgy.

There are also some wonderful books out there that you could read. The books The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia are considered by many to be essential introductory reading for inquirers into Orthodoxy (and Eastern Catholicism). I would agree and add to it his wonderful The Inner Kingdom as a basic introductory text to Eastern/Byzantine spirituality as well. Also, the Light for Life catechetical series published by the Byzantine Catholic company “God With Us” publications, is excellent and well worth the money. Finally, my personal all-time favorite is Melkite Greek Catholic Archbishop Joseph Raya’s book Face of God. You can’t go wrong with any of these books.

Thank You

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

**The Creed recited in the Roman/Latin Rite Catholic Church has “God from God” right here. Why isn’t that phrase in the Nicean Creed?

Did Orthodox remove it or did our Catholic Church add it? And when? By whom?

I need answers on this. **

This is an unresolved issue in my heart and mind.

 

[Rawb]

Looking at the Wiki article on The Creed, CH2R, it looks like only those who are daughters of the Roman Church use the “God from God” line. I’ve never noticed it before. It could be it’s a translation issue, it could be something added.

Make of that what you will: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use

A brief glance over The Creed’s article on New Advent has very little to say, but maybe it’s more than enough to calm your mind: newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Looking at the Wiki article on The Creed, CH2R, it looks like only those who are daughters of the Roman Church use the “God from God” line. I’ve never noticed it before. It could be it’s a translation issue, it could be something added.

“Deum de Deo” / “God from God” was in the first version of the Creed from Nicea 325, later dropped in the final form from Constantinople 381. I’m not sure why it was added to the Latin Church version.

One might ponder what it means to say “God from God” and then, three words later, say “true God from true God” as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You shouldn’t “assume” I was speaking on those in “Communion” with Rome since Communion has been a point of this conversation.

Doesn’t matter. If one is enamored with Orthodoxy, one without experience in Orthodoxy and/or Eastern Catholic Churches should never say, “hey, you should go to an Eastern Catholic parish instead.”

Right it was the 11-Century, is this play semantics now? 1054 was what century? How about answering the question instead of dancing around it now?

LOL! You completely missed my point. You asked me to explain IN-DEPTH the 1100 year old schism. How much to you think that will take? Do you think one or two posts in this thread can discuss that in-depth. Library-full of books have been written on the subject matter.

Depending doesn’t answer the question, what “exactly” can you attend “where” you are in the relation to the DL, you seem very up the Roman Rite schedule would have to assume this was another evasive answer. Seems to be exactly what the link I posted earlier here relates about in relation to the EO.

Well I apologize for not having the Divine Liturgy schedule of every Orthodox parish in the world. Is that what you were expecting from me?

Church is the “MOST” IMPORTANT" aspect of Christianity, Whats more important than Church?

Starts with a “J” and ends with an “esus Christ”

I live in North America and can attend 20-different church’s “daily”. And receive the Sacrament.

Good for you

In the EO, thats to bad. Are the Sacraments valid? I wouldn’t worry about it then.

Whatever floats your boat

I appeciate the TLM, the Rosary Mass, Daily Eucharist etc etc etc. Your point is?

You wouldn’t understand, and I can’t blame you. Even between Roman Catholicism back home in the Philippines vs. Roman Catholicism here in North America, it is not even close.

Well when you receive the Sacrament [Confession/Communion] what does it accomplish?

It doesn’t accomplish something by itself, but rather they are steps in a lengthy process of achieving Theosis.

And right as to your last sentence you totally avoided my question which btw didn’t go un-noticed. So how do you explain this theological difference since the churchs were in Communion how long?

There are divergent schools of thought between East and West and that the West has become more scholastic. St. Thomas Aquinas, a post-Great Schism saint, put the West squarely on the path to legalism and scholasticism (not that it began with him, but the way he approached the faith with Summa Theologica cemented the scholastic approach of the West).

And how do you explain the Churchs being in Communion and what does this means to you, since it “was” a constant in your previous dialogue. Which also seem you now want to abandon which the Eastern Catholic spin.

What do I explain about it?

Could you elaborate?

Tradition should stretch back all the way to Christ.

 

[Hesychios]

Unique only to the Roman Catholic Church? Not true! What about the other 22 Eastern Rites in communion with Rome?

I didn’t say Latin Catholic church, I said Roman, as in Papal. One tradition that arose in the west and has been imposed on it’s subordinate eastern branches once it founded them or took them over. But in the Apostolic world, of the true church traditions of Apostolic origin from Pentecost, the Roman tradition is unique in believing that that there can be any one single human person who is ‘head’ of the entire church and who can direct it from a central administration.

 

[dvdjs]

“Deum de Deo” / “God from God” was in the first version of the Creed from Nicea 325, later dropped in the final form from Constantinople 381. I’m not sure why it was added to the Latin Church version.

Added or retained from Nicea?

 

[dvdjs]

But in the Apostolic world, of the true church traditions of Apostolic origin from Pentecost, the Roman tradition is unique in believing that that there can be any one single human person who is ‘head’ of the entire church and who can direct it from a central administration.

Papal perogatives, the directing of the the church from a central administration, have been attached to the Pope in Alexandria from pre-nicean times.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Added or retained from Nicea?

Well, a fair question. Yet if one says “retained”, does that not imply that the Roman Church rejected Constantinople in some way?

 

[dzheremi]

Papal perogatives, the directing of the the church from a central administration, have been attached to the Pope in Alexandria from pre-nicean times.

Within his own See and the Churches established from it/within his traditional territories of Africa, yes (so, Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, and Libya back when Libya had its own churches). Not over the all the churches in the entire world. You’ll notice, for instance, that Egypt’s neighbors to the West in Algeria/Tunisia/Morocco were ecclesiastically allied with/oriented to Rome in the first millennium, and this was not considered a problem.

 

[dvdjs]

Well, a fair question. Yet if one says “retained”, does that not imply that the Roman Church rejected Constantinople in some way?

It was until two councils later that that local council of Constaninople was recognized as ecumenical and their additions to the Creed of Nicea received universal approval. What usages existed in the meantime? Perhaps some of the older, and by then, longstanding phrases persisted. Don’t know for sure.

More importantly I think this variation highlights the idea that we are talking about holding to a faith expressed in words, not a mere formula of words. Changes to the wording, even when done unilaterally, accepted explicitly or implicitly, have not been real problem.

 

[Hesychios]

Papal perogatives, the directing of the the church from a central administration, have been attached to the Pope in Alexandria from pre-nicean times.

Not universally.

A strong Metropolitan within his synod is not the same thing as Universal Jurisdiction.

To see this as comparable one have to at least provide evidenced that the Pope of Alexandria can control the Jacobite and Armenian churches, write their canons for them and regulate their liturgical practices. Plus one would have to have evidence of a claim that the Popes of Alexandria could (or would) do this for any church not yet under their influence

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It was until two councils later that that local council of Constaninople was recognized as ecumenical and their additions to the Creed of Nicea received universal approval. What usages existed in the meantime? Perhaps some of the older, and by then, longstanding phrases persisted. Don’t know for sure.

More importantly I think this variation highlights the idea that we are talking about holding to a faith expressed in words, not a mere formula of words. Changes to the wording, even when done unilaterally, accepted explicitly or implicitly, have not been real problem.

Noted and agreed, and it reasonably well accepted that this is not problematic. Indeed words can fail us, but I supposed that is why the early Church fathers were so insistent that we agree to and stick with one formulation.

 

[dvdjs]

Noted and agreed, and it reasonably well accepted that this is not problematic. Indeed words can fail us, but I supposed that is why the early Church fathers were so insistent that we agree to and stick with one formulation.

No, that is the point. Thee weren’t. They were concerned with the faith articulated.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

No, that is the point. Thee weren’t. They were concerned with the faith articulated.

How else would one “articulate” such a thing, other than with words?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Doesn’t matter. If one is enamored with Orthodoxy, one without experience in Orthodoxy and/or Eastern Catholic Churches should never say, “hey, you should go to an Eastern Catholic parish instead.” .

I understand the process, and what I would do in person as far as attending Eastern Catholic. From the OP at that point I commented early in the post only that “Orthodoxy” is mentioned. I wasn’t sure what specific church was attended, nor did the OP indicate this.

You completely missed my point.

What exactly was your point then?

Well I apologize for not having the Divine Liturgy schedule of every Orthodox parish in the world. Is that what you were expecting from me?.

Is this what I asked?

Starts with a “J” and ends with an “esus Christ”.

Very good, and the Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. And how do you seperate as you are doing Jesus Christ from the Church?

Good for you.

Your post was a comment that you would have liked to be a representation of “North America” that comment is “not” representative of “North America” since I live in North America. Thus you can only relate your experience to your specific area since there is obviously a difference in where exactly you live in North America and where I live. It is not a matter of being Good for Me, which I do believe this is. Its a matter of not painting with a broad brush as to North America.

Whatever floats your boat

Need I respond to this?

You wouldn’t understand

You know this how?

It doesn’t accomplish something by itself, but rather they are steps in a lengthy process of achieving Theosis…

Confession and Communion accomplish nothing by itself?

Tradition should stretch back all the way to Christ.

Absolutely

 

[GaryTaylor]

This book, although some 100 years old, does a good job in giving descriptions of the major services of the Orthodox Church.

archive.org/stream/amanualoftheorth00sokouoft/amanualoftheorth00sokouoft_djvu.txt

The whole book is worthwhile to read (especially in print, which includes pictures of what is described), but for the section on public worship, you can start around p 32.

The book does not explain everything, but the site www.orthodoxwiki.org also provides decent information. For example, the article on “Akathist”: orthodoxwiki.org/Akathist

Thank You

 

[GaryTaylor]

And preparation for Eucharist for Orthodox and Eastern Catholics includes abstaining from marital relations. So for parish priests who are typically married men, and for us married lay folks that preparation for daily Eucharist would be a problem. Monasteries are populated with celibate monastics, and cathedrals often have attached to them either a number of married priests who can take turns or/and some celibate monks which helps account for the ability to have daily Eucharist. Maybe that helps explain this to you.

How long between marital relations and Eucharist does the fast require? I never thought of this perspective. I live a celebate life at my age now, for years actually, have children and grandchildren, Yes Church, Family remains the path, I would say then that I see even a further beauty between East/West Catholics.

I find the wikipedia and orthodoxwiki are both good sources for basic information and often, as with this about Presanctified Liturgy if you then click on links within the text you can get a very expensive amount of helpful information.

The daily office in the East is a vastly complicated thing to put together. Various jurisdictions provide daily limited materials from the Horologion on line, like the daily scripture, the daily Troparion and Kontakion, and readings on the saints of the day. Greek Orthodox and the Melkite are a couple of examples that come as daily emails. I don’t know if the OCA has an app or daily email like those two do.

I know Jack Figel at Eastern Christian Publications was offering “Byzantine Daily Office” by subscription all the readings for the daily office. I don’t know if that is happening or not. It seemed like a really good idea.

I think most of us have a couple of favorite prayer books we use for daily prayers, with the addition of the readily available readings on the saints and scripture for the day. Someone did a really good review of various prayer books on their site. I’m thinking it was Adam DeVille but I’m not finding it. There are threads in the EC section of CAF on prayer books. Some that come to mind which I have used are Publican’s Prayer Book from the Melkites, A Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians, from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, and the Jordanville Prayerbook from Holy Trinity Monastery which text is also on line

Very helpful, Thank You.

 

[dzheremi]

For Coptic Orthodox people, the fast is a minimum of 9 hours, or from midnight of the previous night. In practice, it is basically always midnight of the previous night, as we err on the side of whichever is longer, and a normal liturgy (with nothing special attached) beginning at 8:30-9 AM will mean the people will receive the Eucharist around 11-11:30 AM or so, so 9 hours from that is what…two in the morning? I don’t think anyone is going to be eating in the slim space between midnight and two in the morning, so everybody I know just takes midnight as the start of the fast, which practically makes it a twelve-hour fast.

Let’s just say that the orban (the blessed bread given out at the conclusion of the liturgy) is the single most delicious thing that you will ever eat in your life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I understand the process, and what I would do in person as far as attending Eastern Catholic. From the OP at that point I commented early in the post only that “Orthodoxy” is mentioned. I wasn’t sure what specific church was attended, nor did the OP indicate this.

I’m telling you from my own experience that it is not the same. And generally one shouldn’t give advice about areas one doesn’t have that much experience and/or knowledge on. This is out of relaying what I have learned through my own experience, not out of being a snob.

What exactly was your point then?

I just explained it in my previous post.

Is this what I asked?

Yes.

Very good, and the Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. And how do you seperate as you are doing Jesus Christ from the Church?

I just answered your question. You asked what is more important than the Church. I don’t know where you got this me trying to separate anything. You asked a question, I gave an answer. It doesn’t mean anything beyond what you asked.

Your post was a comment that you would have liked to be a representation of “North America” that comment is “not” representative of “North America” since I live in North America. Thus you can only relate your experience to your specific area since there is obviously a difference in where exactly you live in North America and where I live. It is not a matter of being Good for Me, which I do believe this is. Its a matter of not painting with a broad brush as to North America.

I’m no travel expert, but I’ve never seen anything happen beyond Mass in the average RC parish. I’m open to being refuted by evidence.

Need I respond to this?

Same response, whatever floats your boat

You know this how?

Because of the state of what it is here today, it’s hard to see beyond what is there.

Confession and Communion accomplish nothing by itself?

“Accomplish” means something is completed. The Sacraments aid is in a process that happens throughout our lives. You don’t become a saint the moment you receive a Sacrament.