Examining Orthodox Theology

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Getting back to some other parts of Orthodox theology, I am interested in “Particular Judgement.” In this essay,
"**WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ORTHODOXY AND ROMAN CATHOLICISM? **By Father Michael Azkoul
St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO
Copyright, 1994 St. Nectarios American Orthodox Church
Reproduced with permission from The Orthodox Christian Witness, Vol. XXVII (48), Vol. XXVIII (6) and (8), 1994
," Fr. Micheal writes as it concerns the Orthodox difference with the Catholic position on life after death:
Purgatory is a condition of the departed before the final judgment. According to Roman Catholic theology, those souls destined for heaven (with a few exceptions) must endure a state of purgation, or purification. They must be cleansed of the sins committed on earth. The rest go to hell for eternal punishment.
Moreover, from a “treasury” of merits or extra grace accumulated by the virtue of Christ, the Virgin Mary and the saints, “indulgences” may be granted. The grace is applied to those in purgatory in order to shorten their time there.
Orthodoxy teaches that, **after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). **There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because ***some ***have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called “Particular Judgment.”
When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The “good and faithful servant” will inherit eternal life, the unfaithful with the unbeliever will spend eternity in hell. Their sins and their unbelief will torture them as fire.
The view of “Particular Judgement” as written in this piece by an Orthodox priest sounds extremely similar to the JW view of soul sleep:

From Jehovah’s Witnesses Official Web Site, Death
Is It Really the End?

When will the resurrection take place? The fact that death is compared to sleep indicates that the resurrection does not usually take place immediately after death. A period of “sleeping” takes place between the time of death and the resurrection. In the Bible, a man named Job raised the question: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” Then he answered: “I shall wait [in the grave] until my relief comes. [God] will call, and I myself shall answer.” (Job 14:14, 15) What a joy it will be when that time arrives and the dead are reunited with their loved ones!
Do Orthodox really believe that our souls “sleep” or “wait” in “Hades,” or the “abode of the dead,” until the resurection? Or am I reading this wrong? I knew they didn’t believe in Purgatory, of course, but I could have sworn the Orthodox believed in a judgement immediately after death where the righteous go to Heaven…right? Or no?

-Chris
 
Getting back to some other parts of Orthodox theology, I am interested in “Particular Judgement.” In this essay, ," Fr. Micheal writes as it concerns the Orthodox difference with the Catholic position on life after death:

The view of “Particular Judgement” as written in this piece by an Orthodox priest sounds extremely similar to the JW view of soul sleep:

From Jehovah’s Witnesses Official Web Site, Death
Is It Really the End?


Do Orthodox really believe that our souls “sleep” or “wait” in “Hades,” or the “abode of the dead,” until the resurection? Or am I reading this wrong? I knew they didn’t believe in Purgatory, of course, but I could have sworn the Orthodox believed in a judgement immediately after death where the righteous go to Heaven…right? Or no?

-Chris
The Orthodox do not believe in a “final destination” until the Resurrection. Whatever state one gets into after death is temporary until the Final Judgement. That is why we can pray for the souls of the departed for God’s mercy at the final judgement.

Yes, the Orthodox do believe that the saints are in heaven. Though that state is also temporary as the fullness of their communion with God will come at the Final Resurrection.
 
Getting back to some other parts of Orthodox theology, I am interested in “Particular Judgement.” In this essay, ," Fr. Micheal writes as it concerns the Orthodox difference with the Catholic position on life after death:

The view of “Particular Judgement” as written in this piece by an Orthodox priest sounds extremely similar to the JW view of soul sleep:

From Jehovah’s Witnesses Official Web Site, Death
Is It Really the End?


Do Orthodox really believe that our souls “sleep” or “wait” in “Hades,” or the “abode of the dead,” until the resurection? Or am I reading this wrong? I knew they didn’t believe in Purgatory, of course, but I could have sworn the Orthodox believed in a judgement immediately after death where the righteous go to Heaven…right? Or no?

-Chris
There is particular judgment. However, my understanding (based on Fr. Seraphim Rose’s work on the soul after death), is that the soul, before facing judgment and moving on, first remains close to the body for a set number of days. The timing of the prayers of the Church for the individual, that is, the number of days after a person’s death on which a memorial liturgy is offered, corresponds with major transitional activities of the soul (which is much aided by prayers during these events).

Other Orthodox can correct me, but I believe the particular judgment takes into consideration the prayers of the saints and the Church. A person who by his life should go to Hell can be saved even after death through these prayers.

As to Orthodox in Hades, the abode of the dead, I do not think this is correct. Christ cleared Hades, and I do not think Orthodox, in consideration of the Resurrection and the Christian’s participation in it, believe that the deceased go back to the “Limbo of the Fathers,” as it is sometimes called.

I notice in Latin Catholicism that the particular judgment, immediate upon death, is reiterated in the general judgment. It always has seemed to me that in Latin Catholicism the particular judgment is final and has primary importance, while the general judgment merely confirms the first judgment. In Orthodoxy, I do not see this understanding. It seems rather that all individual lives are oriented toward the Second Coming and the General Resurrection, and the particular judgment is a step in this direction instead of a predetermination of individuals’ ends in the general judgment.
 
How’s it concept of purgatory explained in Orthodoxy?
That is not a good question. It would be like someone from another religious tradition asking “How’s the concept of reincarnation explained in Christianity?” The answer, of course, is that there is no explanation of reincarnation in Christianity.

If you have the inclination, read The Birth of Purgatory by Jacques Le Goff, a French Medievalist/historian. I found it fascinating.
 
One of the other things that draw me to Orthodox christianity is its stance on deification, or *theosis: *

Again, from:
**WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ORTHODOXY AND ROMAN CATHOLICISM? **By Father Michael Azkoul
St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO
Copyright, 1994 St. Nectarios American Orthodox Church
Reproduced with permission from The Orthodox Christian Witness, Vol. XXVII (48), Vol. XXVIII (6) and (8), 1994.
**4. Christ **
Following the holy Fathers, Orthodoxy teaches that Christ, on the Cross, gave “His life a ransom for many” (Matt. 20:28). “For even the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). The “ransom” is paid to the grave. As the Lord revealed to the Prophet Hosea (Hosea 13:14), “I will ransom them (us) from the power of the grave, I will redeem them from death.” In a sense, He pays the ransom to the devil who has the keeper of the grave and holds the power of death (Heb. 2:14).
The man Christ voluntarily gave Himself on the Cross. He died for all (“a ransom for many” or “the many”). But He rose from the dead in His crucified body. Death had no power to hold Him. It has no power over anyone. The human race is redeemed from the grave, from the devil. Free of the devil is to be free of death and sin. To be free of these, **we become like God (deification) and may live with Him forever. **
…Following the Holy Fathers, the Orthodox Church holds that when Adam sinned against God, he introduced death to the world. Since all men are born of the same human stock as Adam, all men inherit death. Death means that the life of every human being comes to an end (mortality); but also that death generates in us the passions (anger, hate, lust, greed, etc.), disease and aging.
Roman Catholicism has ordinarily paid little attention to the Orthodox conception of man as slave to death through his passions as manipulated by the devil. In fact, the devil has been pushed to the background. Thus, the Crucifixion has been understood by the Latins as Christ suffering punishment for the human race (“vicarious atonement”), when, in truth, Christ suffered and died on the Cross to conquer the devil and destroy his power, death.
In any case, **Orthodoxy has always put great stress on “mastery of the passions” through prayer (public worship and private devotions), fasting (self-denial) and voluntary obedience and regular participation in the Eucharist (sometimes called “the Mysteries”). Thus, the highest form of Christian living (“the supreme philosophy”) is monasticism. Here all human energy is devoted to struggle for perfection. **
And (emphasis in bold and italics are mine):
**[The Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
…In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name:*** theosis***. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God,** and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature**. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God. (Theosis and deification may be used interchangeably. We will avoid the term divinization, since it could be misread for divination, which is another thing altogether!)

Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read **a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” **they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism.

But such an influence could not be further from the Orthodox understanding. The human person does not merge with some sort of impersonal divine force, losing individual identity or consciousness. Intrinsic divinity is never ascribed to humankind or any part of the creation, and no created thing is confused with the being of God. Most certainly, humans are not accorded ontological equality with God, nor are they considered to merge or co-mingle with the being of God as He is in His essence.

We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.
…These passages promise to all Christians an ending “like Christ” at the consummation of history. Since that is our end—actually a new beginning, for which we were created and redeemed—we are urged throughout the New Testament to obtain more and more of that reality in this life, as a “dress rehearsal” for the life to come. In short, this is what theosis/deification is: the possibility that we can acquire in this life that state that we will have as resurrected, glorified persons in the presence of God in eternity.
…Thus we may be glorified together with Him. We are joined to Christ in His glorified, deified humanity and so are united to God. Through this union we are made partakers of the divine nature. Through grace we can become what He is.
I wrote in a Facebook note:
Moral of my priest’s Homily today: Always be ready to give a reason for our hope!!! I have hope in my Lord and savior Jesus Christ because of all the miracles I see still today, all the spirits and glimpses of the after-life I have witnessed, of the living witness of history through the great 2,000 year existence (some call “Tradition”) of The Church; and finally, I have hope that I will overcome my sinful nature and attain theosis, that is, to become God-like, to attain and share in the divine inheritance of Jesus Christ and the Father as an adopted child into their family…
I fight a long and hard struggle against sin every day, losing a battle or two, but with the gift of God’s grace and the Holy Spirit, I will win, overcome, and reach theosis, true spiritual communion with the One, Triune God…That was the original Christology that was lost in the Middle Ages and in the Reformation, but what the Eastern Orthodox Church still proclaims, “God became man so that man might become God.” We are not destined just to be pampered sheep in “Heaven,” but to become a spiritual part of God’s family, with all the inheritance and implications of such…Which is also why I have no problems with praying to and the devotions to the countless numbers of Catholic saints…they are not gods by themselves, but are now part of the One, Triune God, they have achieved theosis;* they are not gods, but God-like. *Which is the ultimate destination God wants us all to get to and provided Jesus Christ to show us and open up that way. I pray I get there!! And I pray you all get there too!!!
In most protestant and in Catholic theology, it’s all about the “vicarious atonement,” that now allows us as humans to enter Heaven, where in Catholic theology we can lose salvation and we are commanded to try to conform ourselves to being Christ-like, but the empahsis isn’t as much as in the Orthodox church.

The Orthodox postion of theosis, of the whole point of life and religion is to master our “passions” or sins and become like Christ, like God, is appealing, however, it also seems like a lot of work. All the official Orthodox theology pages I’ve resarched stress the sacramental or aesthetic life: of constant prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and Mass or Liturgy/“Sacred Mysteries” attendance. And values monasticism, living the aesthetic life, above all. For many Western Catholics and Protestants like me, making that much of a lifestyle change is very difficult, if not impossible. We’d rather go to Mass and Confession, obey all the bare minimums of the Church’s precepts, or, as some Protestants, just accept Jesus as savior and that’s it, period. Oh, yeah, maybe read the Bible, say a prayer now and then, and, if you feel up to it, “fellowship” with other believers on a weekend or two. (Of course, I am only speaking of a select portion of the Catholic and protestant population, not for everyone.)

I would like to live more of a sacramental or aesthetic life, but I find myself drawn to the world and worldly things too much and find it difficult, if not downright impossible, to master my “passions” or sins. Yet, that does sound like to me the whole point of following Christ, of being a Christian: to master our sins (“passions”) and become Christ-like. Not just to be forgiven of my sins (past, present, and future) and have an eternally secured ticket (Blessed Assurance) to Heaven. So am I just dooomed? Thoughts?

What do you think about "theosis"?

-Chris
 
There is particular judgment. However, my understanding (based on Fr. Seraphim Rose’s work on the soul after death), is that the soul, before facing judgment and moving on, first remains close to the body for a set number of days. The timing of the prayers of the Church for the individual, that is, the number of days after a person’s death on which a memorial liturgy is offered, corresponds with major transitional activities of the soul (which is much aided by prayers during these events).
In addition to prayers at certain intervals you’ve mentioned here, in every Proskomedia the priest offeres specific prayers for the reposed, and during the Divine Liturgy we have a number of Litanies the deacon prays which include various references to the departed.

I’ve often been encouraged by clergy to look to “what the Rite says” when I have questions about something. In the Orthodox Funeral service itself (which my ECC uses) in addition to the many penitential prayers of the service, after the Gospel the priest prays the Prayer of Absolution at the side of the coffin, after which the paper on which it is written is placed on the forehead of the reposed. Like any absolution this is understood to absolve sins* for which the reposed was repentant*.

We are enjoined to fervently pray for the dead. How our prayers are efficacious isn’t defined. 🙂
 
Cmforte: Why would you be doomed? Many greater men and women than any of us (in fact, all of the saints) have struggled against the passions and, by the grace and mercy of God, persevered. That’s why they are saints, of course.

Don’t despair. Learn about the struggles of our fathers (two of my favorites in this area are St. John the Short/St. John Colobos and St. Moses the Strong/St. Moses the Ethiopian). Be strengthened by them. Arm yourself with fasting and prayer under the guidance of your spiritual father and nothing will be impossible. The fight against the forces of the devil are for our entire lives, so we might as well commit ourselves to it using the powerful weapons our faith has given us.

Doxology for the Great Fast:

*Come see our Savior, the good Lover of mankind, He performed the work of fasting, with His great humility.
  • He was above the high mountains, with bodily discipline, He taught us the way in order, that we may walk like Him.
He conquered the enemy’s strength, his snares and his deceptions, He humiliated the tempter, before Him.
  • His own disciples, and holy apostles, witnessed His victory, over the enemy’s snares.
A great and plenteous profit, is found in fasting, it purges sins and covers those, who are defiled.
  • Remove laziness, and take watch, seek after the love of brothers, and seek fellowship.
The perfection of humility, the truth of piety, and the forgiveness of iniquities, come from fasting.
  • To those who follow, fasting and prayer, swords and weapons, endure in their hands.
O King of peace, our Lord Jesus Christ, bless fasting and all those, who perform it.
  • All kinds of evil, flee and are destroyed, through prayer and fasting, and supplications.
Christ’s martyrs, defeated the sufferings, through fasting and the patience, that comes with it.
  • The wise virgins, who are clothed with purity, carry their lamps full of oil, through prayer and fasting.
Those who please the Lord God, with their good works, love the beauty of fasting, and the patience that comes with it.
  • David proclaimed, in the holy psaltery saying, “I will decorate my soul, before You with fasting.”
Paul the Apostle, the perfume-tongue says, “In fasting and watchfulness, through the days and nights.”
  • “Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name, may Your kingdom come, for Yours is the glory forever Amen.”*
 
I would like to know what the most important thing is for someone examining Orthodoxy to consider. I had a really great experience at a local Orthodox Church this past Sunday and am very intrigued. … After my shockingly positive experience, at the very least I will examine the Orthodox Churches.
I suggest that the most important thing to consider about Orthodoxy is precisely what you experienced on that Sunday you attended the Divine Liturgy–namely, the Divine Liturgy.

As already observed, in discussions like these, the discussion quickly and inevitably becomes a discussion about papal authority. The Catholics proclaim the desirability and necessity of having an office (i.e., the Pope) who can resolve effectively contentious issues and theological debates. The Orthodox respond that Christ did not give such authority to the Bishop of Rome; etc., etc.

But if you want to know Orthodoxy, you do not want to focus on the typical debate points. What you want to do is to attend the Divine Liturgy and the Divine Offices. The liturgical life of the Church shapes Orthodoxy in a way that simply is not true for Catholicism. The Orthodox faith is governed by the principle lex orandi, lex credendi, which explains why the kind of liturgical revolution that occurred in the Latin Church after Vatican II would be unthinkable in the Eastern Church. This is not to say that Eastern liturgy has not evolved and changed over the centuries (of course it has), but revolutionary changes are impossible because the apostolic faith is faithfully embodied and experienced in the liturgy. It is in the liturgy that the truth of the gospel is known.

In addition to the recommended two books by Met Kallistos Ware (The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way), I would recommend two books by Fr Alexander Schmemann: * For the Life of the World* and The Eucharist.
 
*Per Canon Law 751:

Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him*.
This is heresy according to the Roman Catholic Church and not to the original church (now known as the Orthodox Church). A study into the history of so called papal supremacy will show clearly that the early church did not recognize one bishop as the head of the entire church and all Christians. This was even believed by the bishop of Rome for the first several hundred years.
 
Sorry, my friend, but this is not true- especially the first quotation you gave that tries to claim deification as “Orthodox” and not Catholic by falsely claiming it as a “difference” between the churches.
One of the other things that draw me to Orthodox christianity is its stance on deification, or theosis: In most protestant and in Catholic theology, it’s all about the “vicarious atonement,” that now allows us as humans to enter Heaven, where in Catholic theology we can lose salvation and we are commanded to try to conform ourselves to being Christ-like, but the empahsis isn’t as much as in the Orthodox church.
I don’t know what “Catholic theology” you’re talking about- Certainly not the theology found in the encyclicals of the Popes, the Catechism, the Doctors and Saints of the Catholic Church. The Spiritual theology of the Catholic Church is ALL and COMPLETELY about what we Catholics call divinization/Sanctification and is deification- being divinized/transformed into Divine love (which in CC theology is God himself) and sharing his own essence, and no- that is not new.

I really suggest that you should explore the immensely rich spiritual tradition of your own church while you explore Orthodoxy’s to avoid being mislead by the false suggestions such as the ones manifest in the quotations you gave above, a false belief easily picked up when reading too many polemicist arguments w/out having acquainted yourself with Catholic Spiritual theology and the Western Saints and Doctors. I thank God that I was well acquainted with Sts. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Therese de Lisieux, Catherine of Siena, St. Benedict, St Josemaria Escriva, St Thomas Aquinas, Popes, Catechism etc before I ever delved into this kind of religious comparison with other faiths and churches, because it has kept me safe from being drawn in by this type of false characterization of the CC. These Saints are the guides and authorities of Catholic Spiritual theology and the very idea that it is not entirely deification that they teach and guide is impossible to claim for anyone that knows them.
The Orthodox postion of theosis, of the whole point of life and religion is to master our “passions” or sins and become like Christ, like God, is appealing, however, it also seems like a lot of work. All the official Orthodox theology pages I’ve resarched stress the sacramental or aesthetic life: of constant prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and Mass or Liturgy/“Sacred Mysteries” attendance.
I found this paragraph really puzzling- This IS Catholic- There’s nothing peculiarly “Orthodox” about this!
For many Western Catholics and Protestants like me, making that much of a lifestyle change is very difficult, if not impossible.
No, my friend- For HUMANS, making this kind of change is difficult and literally impossible without grace.
We’d rather go to Mass and Confession, obey all the bare minimums of the Church’s precepts, or, as some Protestants, just accept Jesus as savior and that’s it, period. Oh, yeah, maybe read the Bible, say a prayer now and then, and, if you feel up to it, “fellowship” with other believers on a weekend or two. (Of course, I am only speaking of a select portion of the Catholic and protestant population, not for everyone.)
What you describe here is a problem of the modern age- Apathy, lukewarmness etc. I happen to live in a country with a sizeable population of Orthodox and I’m sorry to inform you that they are no more immune to this type of “do the required minimum” and mostly not even that, type of living than are Catholics. I’ve not read any statistics that suggest that people in Orthodox Countries are any less apathetic to religion as the rest of Europe and the Western Countries. It also surprises me that while you want to live the sacramental life you somehow miss the absolutely immense value of the mass and confession. Attending the crucifixion, eating God and being made completely clean are not just bare minimums- No body can do this faithfully and consistently in his life and not become a Saint (aka deified). If you believe in the presence of God in the Eucharist and Grace in sacraments, you will not have a hard time believing this.

Now, the CC in particular has been undergoing an acute crisis in the past few decades that is certainly (finally, thank Heaven!) being fixed. But please, please, do not conflate the irreligious effects of the modern crisis (as if this were the first crisis in the history of the Church) with the historical and current, spiritual and theological tradition of the church, especially as regards to sanctification- the very reason d’etre of the Church!
I would like to live more of a sacramental or aesthetic life, but I find myself drawn to the world and worldly things too much and find it difficult, if not downright impossible, to master my “passions” or sins. Yet, that does sound like to me the whole point of following Christ, of being a Christian: to master our sins (“passions”) and become Christ-like. Not just to be forgiven of my sins (past, present, and future) and have an eternally secured ticket (Blessed Assurance) to Heaven. So am I just dooomed? Thoughts? What do you think about "theosis"?
My friend, it seems that you are among the millions of Catholics who have suffered from the awful effects of the modernist crisis which has robbed you of your spiritual heritage by not making it readily accessible to you (through awareness)- but rest assured there is more than enough wisdom to make you a saint in the CC. Here’s a friendly challenge to you, Just pick up one of the classical books, like St Francis de Sales, St. Ignatius of Loyola and begin to do what it says, or St. Teresa etc, or pick a more modern guide (in fact I recommend it)- St Josemaria Escriva is IMHO (and a Pope!) absolutely perfect. Do that for a while and come back and tell me if all those problems you highlight in your struggles do not find the perfect remedy in the saints and doctors, and if you still feel starved spiritually. When you begin to experience your need for a Spiritual Director, look for an Opus Dei centre/institution. Their priests are great guides in the spiritual life and readily avail themselves to the laity for frequent confession and spiritual direction. I guess, I’m just asking you and all those Catholics reading this, to search the spiritual heritage of your church and obey the guidance of the saints who teach as how to pray, practice self-denial (mortification) and dispose ourselves properly for the sacraments before claiming that these things are missing from the CC. The test of the pudding, is in the eating.

Peace.
 
I would like to know what the most important thing is for someone examining Orthodoxy to consider.

I had a really great experience at a local Orthodox Church this past Sunday and am very intrigued.

As my name on here suggests “Come Home to Rome”, I am very partial to my Catholic Church.

After my shockingly positive experience, at the very least I will examine the Orthodox Churches.

In the process, don’t want to leave a single rock unturned.
Just bear one thing in mind:

You can admire and appreciate Orthodoxy without being in the least troubled in your Catholicism. Obviously as a Catholic you can admire what is good and true in any religious tradition, but in the case of Orthodoxy there’s very little for Catholics to object to except the simple fact that they aren’t in communion with Rome.

So you shouldn’t be surprised that your experiences with Orthodoxy are positive, and you should only allow that to shake your allegiance to Rome if you decide that the Orthodox are correct in saying that Rome has fallen into heresy.

I say this because one of the things my friends often tell me when I say I still think I should become Catholic (after having considered the matter for about 17 years now and having dropped out of RCIA 13 years ago) is, “But you seem to admire Orthodoxy so much–why don’t you become Orthodox?”

Edwin
 
Just bear one thing in mind:

You can admire and appreciate Orthodoxy without being in the least troubled in your Catholicism. Obviously as a Catholic you can admire what is good and true in any religious tradition, but in the case of Orthodoxy there’s very little for Catholics to object to except the simple fact that they aren’t in communion with Rome.

So you shouldn’t be surprised that your experiences with Orthodoxy are positive, and you should only allow that to shake your allegiance to Rome if you decide that the Orthodox are correct in saying that Rome has fallen into heresy.

I say this because one of the things my friends often tell me when I say I still think I should become Catholic (after having considered the matter for about 17 years now and having dropped out of RCIA 13 years ago) is, "But you seem to admire Orthodoxy so much–why don’t you become Orthodox?"

Edwin
Well, what do you say in response? And why (if I may ask) don’t you just become Catholic if that’s your intention?
 
The avid fan of Blessed John Henry Newman?😛
Hey Gary, I think this post was directed at me? Assuming that it was, then- I don’t really have Blessed Newman’s writings. I understand he was a great theologian with a powerful intellect and a real saint. Perhaps I should look them up. 🙂

Peace.
 
Hey Gary, I think this post was directed at me? Assuming that it was, then- I don’t really have Blessed Newman’s writings. I understand he was a great theologian with a powerful intellect and a real saint. Perhaps I should look them up. 🙂

Peace.
I was talking Edwin, our historian who admires Newman. Makes me chuckle when I think of how Newman converted to Catholicism. 😃
 
Still not comprehending the Eastern understanding of purgatory. What was the EO thinking on this pre schism? There is abundant documented evidence of this pre-schism by the Early Church Fathers.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholic.com%2Ftracts%2Fthe-roots-of-purgatory&ei=MVsiUP3JK6rz0gH3zYHADw&usg=AFQjCNG0OZWyFNVw3cgvrj29TnFV69SzMQ&sig2=EtyFQ29QPPn4K2xAdrSJlA

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F11%2Fpope-st-leo-great-beauty-of-soul-in.html&ei=_5odUJ6-FYfH6wHYyoDwCw&usg=AFQjCNHIn1TsW9psuodtmjvKT0scpZD7aQ&sig2=zmItCVzkjsz_plHISX8bRA

What comes to mind is Leo I and his exegesis of Matthew- Everyone who will say a word against The Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever will speak against The Spirit of Holiness, it will not be forgiven to him, not in this world, neither in the world that is being prepared. (which I believe the Matthew verse is mentioned above yet not in connection with Leo the Great.)

Does this not also indicate a purification process after flesh?

Listen, saying “we don’t believe” does not answer the question why don’t you believe and where is the coinciding theology which indicates the “we don’t believe” aspect.

I’m trying to be charitable and understand here. “We don’t believe” doesn’t work for me nor for other inquiring minds.

We must agree there simply is not an empty void or abyss between flesh and Heaven. For the established Kingdom of God has already shown this to be not so, through the Celestial Court and the Communion of Saints. Principalities and Powers are not only to be understood in the negative or evil but also with the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is this representation of the EO wrong below?

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