Examining Our Reasons

[glimmer]

Again, I don’t think the question presents itself as “whether the Catholic faith is the true faith,” because I don’t think there are two different “faiths” in competition here. … It seems to my private judgment that the Roman Communion is more consistently orthodox than any of the Protestant bodies, but I do have some serious questions, primarily having to do with disturbing trends and overall attitudes within your Communion.

This was posted by someone on another thread, but it hit the nail on the head for me and explains why I also waver on the matter.

Perhaps I should lay out some things that have shaped my decisions and thinking~

I believe that God is spirit and whoever worships Him must worship in spirit and in truth. I wonder if some of the details of the faith matter so much. The earth spins on its axis. Even if I don’t admit that it spins, it will go on spinning nicely. Some things of the faith fall into that category–like the Trinity. *Must *we define it? Is God *limited *to a Trinity? Can our opinion of it nullify the work of Jesus Christ?

Also, I see the points the Catholics make for Peter’s primacy. Evidence does abound. Was this to be a continuing primacy? I do not know. Protestants take many directives given to the Apostles as directives for all. If Jesus tells Peter: “Feed my sheep,” then we all ought to feed His sheep. Is there perhaps an either/or thinking when maybe it ought to be both/and?

I believe in the Real Presence–whether it involves transubstantiation, I do not know–but I believe God could do it if that’s what He wants. If we pray, don’t we expect Jesus to come? Why not in the bread and wine?

I believe in confession, but whether *only *or *always *to a priest? When one feels the peace of God in the heart over a privately confessed sin, what then? The re-inspection of old sins reminds me of opening up an old wound after it has started to heal nicely.

Purgatory? I believe in the salvation of the spirit *and *of the soul. We do not get into the kingdom with anything that offends God. I do not know if what Jesus called the “outer darkness” is purgatory or for how long it lasts. But it is important to confess sins immediately and to undergo the refining work of the Cross–that we might enter entire into Resurrection and not suffer loss.

Some of my thoughts fall in-between Protestantism and Catholicism. Some think I ought to change and “go to church” like a decent human being. I have tired, however, of the places I once went–the goals, agendas, activities that go round in circles but leave people untransformed. Too many want God’s things (perfect doctrines, miracles) but they don’t want God. Other Protestant communities with officially sounder doctrines are destroyed by political correctness.

In its favor, the Catholic Church still knows what a marriage is, that God does not look the other way at some sins but not others, and it understands why men–and not women–should be ordained as priests. (Darn it…I like men and wish all priests, pastors, firemen, police, etc. were men. )

It is too bad there is so much dissension in the Catholic ranks. Too many have bought into the modernist and New Age agendas. (“Hath God said?.”)

The truly outstanding point of the official Catholic faith is that it still recognizes the center of the faith as “Jesus Christ and him crucified,” which I why I hold the Eucharist in high regard. :bowdown2: Would you rather *know *a lot of things about Christ or would you rather *have *Christ?

So, yes, I am torn --between the liberty of having *no *church (do not mistake this for ‘no fellowship’) and changing some of my ideas about ‘community’. I see that the walk of faith is individualistic, regardless. It takes individualism to stand against the tide of the age, whether you choose to go it alone or to remain a beacon in the midst of perversity. (You will be sorely tried either way you go.)

 

[dessert]

WWWOOOOWWWW give me some time to think this one over
As always :bounce:

 

[mrs_abbott]

Quick question: you said that you’re not quite sure about transubstantiation and if it takes place on the altar at Mass, right?
What about the scripture quote where Jesus said “eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life”? What does that mean then?

 

[glimmer]

Quick question: you said that you’re not quite sure about transubstantiation and if it takes place on the altar at Mass, right?
What about the scripture quote where Jesus said “eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life”? What does that mean then?

My first thought upon reading that was not that it meant transubstantiation. It struck me more along the lines of someone drawing a map and saying, “Now this is Chicago and this is Dallas,” and because you know where physical Chicago and Dallas are, you realize the map is a representation of something much larger.

Also, if transubstantiation is correct, this leaves another logistical question. If we have no life in us unless we drink His physical blood and eat His physical body, then that means that no non-Catholics will be resurrected. This does not make sense to me, given what Catholics today say they believe about other “Christians”–if that’s what they be.

On the other hand, if other “Christians” really have His body and blood in the Lord’s Table (or whatever they call it) and may be resurrected as a result, then it would seem to interfere with the idea that only a priest may perform the miracle of transubstantiation.

I’m not trying to make this difficult for people with trick questions and answers, but I’ve always been surprised that nobody ever brings up these points. It may well be that I have missed something here, and I realize that no one apprehends the things of God by sheer logic, try as some might on the other threads. History is great and logic is wonderful, but ultimately God’s things are apprehended spiritually. I just thought we might take a stab at it.

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of “eating” God in spirit. I used to work in a place where we handled scripture plaques. One time I picked one up, read it, and it seemed as if my spirit expanded, sucked in the words, and ingested them. They became a part of me. Sometimes I think this is a sort of eating, but whether such phenomena is covered in the “eating and drinking” that Jesus spoke of, I do not know.

I look forward to seeing what other people think about these various things.

 

[dessert]

Hi, I was away from the CC for 40 years that iswhy "desert’ I mispelled it and they said in order to spellit right I would have to start over , so when I came back to the eucharist, blessed,
transfigurated, not sure about spelling I hadn’t realized what I had been missing because I had not really been receiving Him. As you connencted with the words, scripture and God’s word connected with the spirit there we are again connecting the dots ha! Well there is just nothing like taking in the real thing no crackers and juice for me again!
Let me tell you another story. Where were you on the day that 911 happened? I was just coming into work at a retail store, shouldn’t say witch I guess, I just read the stickys, about time.Well it was on the tv’s just happened and it was absolutely terrifying. It was like time stood still, everyone one was crying and in shock.
A few months after I saw a documentary filllm on it very candid and real tv stuff. What impressed me was the total dedication these firfighters had for the public, for each other and for’ God,’ I’m sure many did but you know I don’t know which ones. They were trained no one just said ok today you will be afighter. They took oaths and that day they laid down their lives to try to save others because they ate together lived and breathed and died together. I know this is getting sad, sorry. Maybe some had had the eucharist that day? I hate to go a day without the eucharist but I can’t get to every daily mass. Because Jesus is the bread of life and He is in that host. You know that night I’ll bet ther were many family members that held a hat or shirt or some other article of clothing and put it up to their face and inhaled the scent that was still lingered on it and had penetrated that so much so infused into it that they may still have it today and they can still feel the prescence through it also because the spirit of the person had so saturated it with their love. Some may have even washed it and can still feel and know and belive it is their loved ones. Jesus is our firefighter and soldier our Savior and this is what the eucharist means to me. My father/priest is not just someone handing me a cracker and when I go to the table as the apostles did there is a special menaing there as when you looked at the placque with word of God on it this is the WORD living WORD I am taking into my body so I try to be as repectfull as I can be as an honored guest is arriving to abide in my body.
Not too dramatic I hope.
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in him. John 15;4 NKJ
Look up the one about the vine and the branches too!
Either you just believe it or you don’t but if you really experience the Lord in the eucharist you will not go back, just like with the plaque you knew. Those firefighters gave their lives but Our Lord Jesus gave us His body for us to live for eternal life.

Love these signs don’t you? Desert, return

 

[glimmer]

Hi, I was away from the CC for 40 years that iswhy "desert’ I mispelled it and they said in order to spellit right I would have to start over

I had a feeling…

I hadn’t realized what I had been missing because I had not really been receiving Him. As you connencted with the words, scripture and God’s word connected with the spirit there we are again connecting the dots ha!

When I first started toying with the idea of the Real Presence, I was praying one night about some things–notably when Jesus asked Peter, “Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” Without getting into personal specifics, this was the day before I went to attend a Presbyterian service. While at the communion rail, I received an unusual confirmation on my previous night’s prayer while partaking of bread and wine–as if the Lord had visited me then and there. Yet I still felt I lacked and began to search a little more deeply.

They took oaths and that day they laid down their lives to try to save others because they ate together lived and breathed and died together.

That is a template for true Christian fellowship.

Jesus is our firefighter and soldier our Savior and this is what the eucharist means to me. My father/priest is not just someone handing me a cracker and when I go to the table as the apostles did there is a special menaing there as when you looked at the placque with word of God on it this is the WORD living WORD I am taking into my body so I try to be as repectfull as I can be as an honored guest is arriving to abide in my body.

I feel very much that He is with me. I had a definite mystical experience one time 20+ years ago that changed the whole direction of my life. It was truly a horrible experience that led to it, and I was already a Christian who had experienced the presence of the Lord before–so I had an idea what it was like. I could quite easily have lost my mind at that point in life. Suddenly, there was Jesus and I knew that my faith was not my own. He had faith when I had none. There is no way to describe this, but I felt everything He felt. He restored my mind and soul. Fr. Jean-Pierre de Caussade wrote, “We are not in our right mind until we have returned to the mind of Christ.”

Jesus picked up my life which I could no longer live and has been helping me relinquish that life ever since. Sometimes I am distant and do not feel Him in the moment. In about two seconds if I pray, He is real again, living and moving in spite of my self-life. I can almost taste Him. He is amazing. I do not know how He could be more real in a Eucharist–I really do not. I feel as if I am imbibing Him in so many ways. I have no idea what the correct theology on “eating and drinking” is–but there He is, pouring Himself out to us in so many ways. Yet, it is never enough. Thank God for spiritual hunger and thirst. We long to be healed and to be clothed upon with His glory. The life we think we have is false–we have no life but His.

Look up the one about the vine and the branches too!

I love the one on the vine and the branches. I think that’s where everything originates–is in the life of the Vine. True prayer originates there. So do the true works of God.

Either you just believe it or you don’t but if you really experience the Lord in the eucharist you will not go back, just like with the plaque you knew. Those firefighters gave their lives but Our Lord Jesus gave us His body for us to live for eternal life.

If it is true, then one day I hope to find out. But I would not know how to tell the difference in the physical body and blood apart from just His presence. How can you measure a thing like that?

That was a good story… Today I was talking to this lady about the Lord’s Body…how He elected to remain scarred and disfigured that we might be eternally whole. How’d He do that when He was so perfect? And now He lives with wounds…

 

[MariaG]

Glimmer,

Nice thoughtful post and questions:thumbsup: .

Just to help you understand me more: I am a “technical revert” ie, baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church, but I am really more like a convert. Parents got mad at Church when I was 4, stopped going, no Catholic schooling at all. I did get married in the Catholic Church, and this was the first time I unknowingly was responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. (Living with my boyfriend, went to bishop and said, “I am not going to church, I don’t plan on going, but for some reason, I am not sure why, I don’t think I will feel married unless it is by a priest.” Also shared the background of parents and when I was 15, mom started to go back to church, I decided to go with, and quickly changed my mind when favorite priest was found to have been a homosexual pediphile for last 20 years. Took that one all the way to God and blamed Him)

I thought I would also respond to the quote that started this line of questioning . My responses will be a mix of personal testimony and “official” Catholic teachings.

From OP
Again, I don’t think the question presents itself as “whether the Catholic faith is the true faith,” because I don’t think there are two different “faiths” in competition here. … It seems to my private judgment that the Roman Communion is more consistently orthodox than any of the Protestant bodies, but I do have some serious questions, primarily having to do with disturbing trends and overall attitudes within your Communion

This question I believe is most easily explained by looking at scripture. If we look at the apostles and the followers of Christ before and right after His resurrection, we see that human beings fall into the trap of who is best. The apostles arguing who would sit next to Christ, even though they did not understand exactly what He was here for.

Followers afterwards arguing who was right, Paul or Peter. Not focusing on the words of Christ, but who tells us best what those words are. It is well meant, and to a point necessary since we are supposed to correct brethren we see who are in error, but original sin frequently gets in the way with both the speaker and the hearer.

Scripture itself tells us to let the weeds and the wheat grow together so we know that there should be weeds among the wheat. Not everyone who calls Lord Lord will be answered.

So one cannot blame the Catholic church for the problems one sees within, one should blame fallen human nature and original sin. And as I said, scripture tries to help us “see” this I believe.

Okay, I think I will do this in several posts since I tend to get a little longwinded

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I believe that God is spirit and whoever worships Him must worship in spirit and in truth. I wonder if some of the details of the faith matter so much. The earth spins on its axis. Even if I don’t admit that it spins, it will go on spinning nicely. Some things of the faith fall into that category–like the Trinity. *Must *we define it? Is God *limited *to a Trinity? Can our opinion of it nullify the work of Jesus Christ?

Yes, we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. This is a constant teaching of the Catholic Church. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). Due to space, I will just leave the links to these instead of the full text. I would encourage you to go and read these very short defintions/explanations from the
CCC.

**160 **To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and… therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.” "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . .
**2703 **This need also corresponds to a divine requirement. God seeks worshippers in Spirit and in Truth, and consequently living prayer that rises from the depths of the soul…
**1179 **The worship "in Spirit and in truth"of the New Covenant is not tied exclusively to any one place. The whole earth is sacred and entrusted to the children of men. What matters above all is that, when the faithful assemble in the same place, they are the “living stones,” gathered to be “built into a spiritual house.” For the Body of the risen Christ is the spiritual temple from which the source of living water springs forth: incorporated into Christ by the Holy Spirit, “we are the temple of the living God.”

---

I do believe in fact the details of the faith matter. I do not believe it is neccessarily important for each and every individual follower of Christ to KNOW those details, but it is important to define things. And for me, it is important to know who I can definitively look to for correct interpretation of scripture and the teachings of Christ as handed down by the apostles. Or how else can we test the spirit? In my Protestant Churches, very good and Godly men taught exactly opposite of each other. Both said they were led by the Spirit.

Scripture tells us to “take it to the Church” so clearly there was a visible Church to take things to in order to settle disputes between followers. There were also disputes between followers on what the teachings of Christ meant early on as well as today. We can see that early on, these disputes got settled by declarations from “the Church”.

Scripture also tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. (2Thess 2:15 I believe, running out of time, ask and will give it later ) I believe that Scripture is true for all times. And there is no way for scripture to be true on this if there is not ONE Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The “exact” definitions of the Catholic Church almost all spring from heresy and false teachings that had sprung up. For example, the Orthodox do not define the Real Presence. But in the Catholic Church, there was a heresy that had sprung up on the Real Presence of Christ that demanded as an exact formula of the How, as is humanly possible to understand.

I found an article from *This Rock *By CANON FRANCIS J. RIPLEY TRANSUBSTANTIATION FOR BEGINNERS

This article explains the belief as well as the heresies that prompted this belief to be defined in this manner. If one does not define core beliefs when things are being said that are wrong, huge problems can arise.

Can our opinion change things? No. Can our unbelief or trying to place our limited understanding upon an unlimited God nulify the work of Christ? I do not know the “official” answer to this, but I would again look at scripture. In scripture wasn’t there a time when Christ went to a city, His own? and left because the unbelief of all prevented Him from doing miracles?

So while I do not think we can nulify the work of Christ, I do believe that we can, through unbelief or putting God in a box, limit what God can do for us.

Conversely though, I do not believe things like the Trinity are limiting God by unbelief. Again, the definition of the Trinity sprung from heretical teachings about Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Perhaps I should lay out some things that have shaped my decisions and thinking~

…

Also, I see the points the Catholics make for Peter’s primacy. Evidence does abound. Was this to be a continuing primacy? I do not know. Protestants take many directives given to the Apostles as directives for all. If Jesus tells Peter: “Feed my sheep,” then we all ought to feed His sheep. Is there perhaps an either/or thinking when maybe it ought to be both/and?

I feel very blessed that god gave me the faith in this first, and then the knowledge.

But I will answer this one with a question since you “see” the points for Peterine primacy.

Did Christ come to establish a Church on earth for the lifetime of Peter only? Or until He returned?

The steward who is given the keys is in charge until the King returns. If the King does not return immediately, and the steward dies in the interim, would chaos reign and the king have to return to name a new steward to hold the keys? Or would the King expect a new steward to be in charge and hold the keys until His return?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mrs_abbott]

Also, if transubstantiation is correct, this leaves another logistical question. If we have no life in us unless we drink His physical blood and eat His physical body, then that means that no non-Catholics will be resurrected. This does not make sense to me, given what Catholics today say they believe about other “Christians”–if that’s what they be.

Everyone has a chance to go to Heaven if they live according to what they know to be True, granted they have to have a well-informed conscience and be somewhat educated in religion, because the Truth can’t lie. God will judge a person according to what he/she knows to be True, even those who are honestly ignorant of God and religion. “Faith and good works”

On the other hand, if other “Christians” really have His body and blood in the Lord’s Table (or whatever they call it) and may be resurrected as a result, then it would seem to interfere with the idea that only a priest may perform the miracle of transubstantiation.

But they don’t and they don’t claim to either. Protestants with communion say that it is “symbolic” of the Last Supper and that they aren’t really eating Jesus’ body and drinking His blood.

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of “eating” God in spirit

Sure, each time you pray and open your heart to God.

 

[glimmer]

Glimmer,

Nice thoughtful post and questions:thumbsup: .

Maria,
You gave me a lot to chew on and I’ll respond more after doing some more reading and thinking. I won’t get to your other posts till later since I’m kind of tied up a bit. I’m reading the piece from your second post on transubstantiation and it’s interesting.

Also shared the background of parents and when I was 15, mom started to go back to church, I decided to go with, and quickly changed my mind when favorite priest was found to have been a homosexual pediphile for last 20 years. Took that one all the way to God and blamed Him)

There are several interesting things in your story, but the one that most stands out to me is this. See, I’ve not had THAT happen, but I do have some trust issues with rigid authority structures. I have “abuse antennas” and a fear of being locked into something unhappy and someone throwing away the key. Plus I feel duty bound to say something when I see such blatant abuses going on. Can one not say such things when it is obvious? I recall in Galatians that Paul “withstood Peter to the face” when Peter was carried away by bad doctrine. How did you work through this?

There are lots of priests who leave for other reasons…I know of a man whose brother did so and he is deeply ashamed of the brother. I, on the other hand, would tend to feel sorry for his brother and wonder if he was deeply distressed over something. I know a lady whose brother left the priesthood because he never received another paycheck and was just left to do without. I don’t know what was the story there, but I sometimes wonder whether God allows lives to go through such things because it is the roundabout way He has of bringing them through something (though it looks pretty screwy to people on the outside). I am just musing here…

If we look at the apostles and the followers of Christ before and right after His resurrection, we see that human beings fall into the trap of who is best. The apostles arguing who would sit next to Christ, even though they did not understand exactly what He was here for.

Now this I can believe.

Followers afterwards arguing who was right, Paul or Peter. Not focusing on the words of Christ, but who tells us best what those words are. It is well meant, and to a point necessary since we are supposed to correct brethren we see who are in error, but original sin frequently gets in the way with both the speaker and the hearer.

Sometimes being “right” is beside the point. I was thinking tonight that there are so many good points pro and con. People convert both directions for all kinds of logical reasons, but there must be something even deeper than logic and even deeper than being right. There must be something that plants you deep in the life of Christ–I can’t see that logic alone does that.

Scripture itself tells us to let the weeds and the wheat grow together so we know that there should be weeds among the wheat. Not everyone who calls Lord Lord will be answered.

What I would generally refer to as “tares.” At some point, they do become distinguishable. Do you think we are seeing “tares” now? There are many who, in times past, would not dare to come out and rebel so openly against the holiness of God. Today, many do not mind and are not ashamed in the least–even many in the churches. But in this case, you are speaking specifically of the Catholic Church, I think.

So one cannot blame the Catholic church for the problems one sees within, one should blame fallen human nature and original sin. And as I said, scripture tries to help us “see” this I believe.

Can this also be stood on its head and applied to non-Catholic churches? Is it not the condition of the human race…? and does not sin surround every glint of God that appears anywhere in the earth?

 

[MariaG]

Maria,
There are several interesting things in your story, but the one that most stands out to me is this. See, I’ve not had THAT happen, but I do have some trust issues with rigid authority structures. I have “abuse antennas” and a fear of being locked into something unhappy and someone throwing away the key. Plus I feel duty bound to say something when I see such blatant abuses going on. Can one not say such things when it is obvious? I recall in Galatians that Paul “withstood Peter to the face” when Peter was carried away by bad doctrine. How did you work through this?

I was eventually able to see that even those who have recieved the call of God, can choose to turn their back on Him. I no longer blame God for the shortcomings and failings of humans. I don’t blame God for always giving us free will, for with that free will not only is there great ugliness and horror, but also, great love that would not be possible without that free will.

There are lots of priests who leave for other reasons…I know of a man whose brother did so and he is deeply ashamed of the brother. I, on the other hand, would tend to feel sorry for his brother and wonder if he was deeply distressed over something. I know a lady whose brother left the priesthood because he never received another paycheck and was just left to do without. I don’t know what was the story there, but I sometimes wonder whether God allows lives to go through such things because it is the roundabout way He has of bringing them through something (though it looks pretty screwy to people on the outside). I am just musing here…

No, good musing. I read a book once, can’t remember the name, “Set the prisoners free”? In it, a man’s car broke down. It broke down and the only place that could fix it was this place that was notorious for overcharging people. The man in it stuggled with this and asked God how he could put him in this situation. He finally realized, that whatever the outcome, overcharged or not, God was the one in control and if he got overcharged, it was because God allowed these circumstances to happen for a reason. He just needed to calm down and trust in Him and try to learn the lesson that God had planned for Him. (In this case, learning to Trust Him in all things WAS the lesson)

Sometimes being “right” is beside the point. I was thinking tonight that there are so many good points pro and con. People convert both directions for all kinds of logical reasons, but there must be something even deeper than logic and even deeper than being right. There must be something that plants you deep in the life of Christ–I can’t see that logic alone does that.

I would agree with you. I think those who leave the Catholic Church do so because the finally found Christ. Unfortunately, they believe that since they never knew Him while in the Catholic Church, that He isn’t there. Some don’t go that far but are leery of returning to a place where they never knew Him.

I think the one of the most compelling things to me though is that many, many Protestants who read their bible every day, go to Church, have a deep personal relationship with Christ become Catholic. But the Catholics who become Protestants claim they never had a relationship with Christ, and few ever read the bible on their own before leaving.

I always wonder why it isn’t more obvious to them, (those that left and now believe the Catholic Church is not even Christian), who is more likely to be fooled by Satan, a Christian who has a deep personal relationship already, or one who did not. Someone who already knows His voice and hears a deeper call, or someone who is hearing it for the first time.

What I would generally refer to as “tares.” At some point, they do become distinguishable. Do you think we are seeing “tares” now? There are many who, in times past, would not dare to come out and rebel so openly against the holiness of God. Today, many do not mind and are not ashamed in the least–even many in the churches. But in this case, you are speaking specifically of the Catholic Church, I think.

Can this also be stood on its head and applied to non-Catholic churches? Is it not the condition of the human race…? and does not sin surround every glint of God that appears anywhere in the earth

Oh yes, this definitely can apply to non-Catholic Churches. The biggest difference I believe though is that at least in your smaller churches, the weeds just stop coming and in the Catholic Church as well some of your larger Protestant sacremental Churches “the weeds” keep coming out of duty or habit.

I think it is most prevelant among Catholics though. The “Cultural” Catholic.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[glimmer]

Couple of things here while I take a mental break from some copy editing.

I was eventually able to see that even those who have recieved the call of God, can choose to turn their back on Him.

Or did they really receive God’s call? Or are there people who really did not know God as they thought they did–even ministers? John Wesley preached in America and on his way back to England, he suddenly realized he did not know God as he thought. There is a wonderful quote from him, “I went to America to convert the Indians, but O! who shall convert me?” I went to his chapel in London–off the beaten path for me, but I hadda see it, I just hadda. Took a picture of a poster with that quote. I treasure the quote about his encounter with God “that strangely warmed the heart” and transformed the faith of an entire generation.

Sometimes I wonder about people’s calls and all the ways God expresses Himself in various situations. For instance, you might think that Wesley should have been a priest if you are a Catholic, but he was married with a shrewish wife. He rode the preaching circuit on horseback. I’ve known so many men who gave up so much to preach–God must know all the motives. Would a Catholic consider they missed their real calling to be priests? I was considering this in light of church history. Does God have a million disguises for his presbyters? What is the answer? I have an idea I’m formulating, but who knows?

I no longer blame God for the shortcomings and failings of humans. I don’t blame God for always giving us free will, for with that free will not only is there great ugliness and horror, but also, great love that would not be possible without that free will.

Agree with you here. It is always possible to turn our backs on a genuine calling. We are always being sharpened into more of God in this walk, but that applies to priests, too. Sometimes I think we are liable to have our points break off unexpectedly during pressure, just as happens with pencils. God has to resharpen us again–maybe not to quite as fine a point. We learn to be humble that we are not as sharp as we once were, but we are just sharp enough and just solid enough to remain faithful in His hand.

No, good musing. I read a book once, can’t remember the name, “Set the prisoners free”? In it, a man’s car broke down. It broke down and the only place that could fix it was this place that was notorious for overcharging people. The man in it stuggled with this and asked God how he could put him in this situation. He finally realized, that whatever the outcome, overcharged or not, God was the one in control and if he got overcharged, it was because God allowed these circumstances to happen for a reason.

If I had to boil “trust” down–I would say that I have gone from interpreting that to mean, “God will make sure everything turns out hunky-dory one way or another” to “Even if we lose everything, God will make sure we are swallowed up in Him–for that is the point, after all.” That latter is exactly what kept my heart and mind in Christ Jesus the other day when that disaster occurred at work. And yet, it’s interesting, seeing that God has been righting things again that I could not have fixed. Perhaps when we get the point of trust, we release God to change the course of events. I think maybe these things happen because He is testing His workmanship and finding where the loose nuts and bolts are. Our submission allows Him to tighten them down and to retest us until we are ready for His Kingdom.

I would agree with you. I think those who leave the Catholic Church do so because the finally found Christ. Unfortunately, they believe that since they never knew Him while in the Catholic Church, that He isn’t there. Some don’t go that far but are leery of returning to a place where they never knew Him.

I have known many people who stick with a particular kind of church because that is where they first learned Christ. Who can blame them? It feels like “home” to them–a place where they are safe. Of course, they do get tried, most of them. Some people even return to the Catholic faith after involvement with these other churches because they “see” what they missed before.

People leave because of SOO many kinds of offenses. Jesus did say offenses would come, didn’t He? I sometimes question why I left the little church my mother is still involved in…and the one before that. Yes, there were offenses…but that is not THE reason I left. I simply was not finding the answers I needed in the one, and I had “changed my religion” while in the other so that we were following two completely different paths.

This is good. I’ll continue in next post.

 

[glimmer]

Continued part two…

I think the one of the most compelling things to me though is that many, many Protestants who read their bible every day, go to Church, have a deep personal relationship with Christ become Catholic. But the Catholics who become Protestants claim they never had a relationship with Christ, and few ever read the bible on their own before leaving.

I see this all the time and wonder, dear God, why?

I always wonder why it isn’t more obvious to them, (those that left and now believe the Catholic Church is not even Christian), who is more likely to be fooled by Satan, a Christian who has a deep personal relationship already, or one who did not.

Now that IS a question. One time the late Bible teacher Derek Prince said, “Satan has two plans for you. The first is to keep you from coming to Christ. The second, if he fails at the first, is to keep you from becoming an effective Christian.” Satan goes after our minds. Does he seek to kill or destroy what is no threat to him?

Oh yes, this definitely can apply to non-Catholic Churches. The biggest difference I believe though is that at least in your smaller churches, the weeds just stop coming and in the Catholic Church as well some of your larger Protestant sacremental Churches “the weeds” keep coming out of duty or habit.

Now THAT is an interesting “take” that I hadn’t thought of. And maybe it depends on how much of the Word of God ministers actually preach. There is an Episcopal Church in town where I live that tolerated the local porn king as one of its ushers. They didn’t have a pastor for a long time and finally got one. He preached that they were miserable sinners and needed to repent. They didn’t like that and got rid of him. Good man. That takes some doing for an Episcopal, but some cultural Christians really need to wake up.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I think the one of the most compelling things to me though is that many, many Protestants who read their bible every day, go to Church, have a deep personal relationship with Christ become Catholic. But the Catholics who become Protestants claim they never had a relationship with Christ, and few ever read the bible on their own before leaving.

Protestants attend services where the preacher actually mentions “ok, now in John 3:16 . . .”, whereas the Catholic Church just has the readings and the gospel where the reader or priest starts out by saying “a reading from the book of . . .” and not too many people know that this is the bible or if they do, it’s just a small section of the Mass that references the bible and most Protestants’ services REVOLVE around the bible.
Also, Protestants are encouraged to read and interpret the Bible. It is never mentioned on Sundays at Catholic Churches to read the bible, at least I haven’t heard it during my lifetime.

 

[glimmer]

Protestants attend services where the preacher actually mentions “ok, now in John 3:16 . . .”, whereas the Catholic Church just has the readings and the gospel where the reader or priest starts out by saying “a reading from the book of . . .”

Maybe this ties into something that desert said on one of her posts about connecting the dots.

There is something about making a conscious decision for Christ that sets you on course. When I was being a bratty kid one time, my mother sat me down, drew a diagram of me with God on one side and Satan on the other. She told me I had to choose. Not to choose God was to automatically default to the side of Satan since we are no match for him. I chose God (not while she was looking, though). At some point, all of us make a decision, conscious or otherwise. I think the consciousness of the decision helps a whole lot.

 

[glimmer]

Yes, we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. This is a constant teaching of the Catholic Church. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). Due to space, I will just leave the links to these instead of the full text.

I looked them up quickly last night, but I want to take a closer look at them again soon.​

In my Protestant Churches, very good and Godly men taught exactly opposite of each other. Both said they were led by the Spirit.

I think they often are. They just aren’t led into the fullness of the truth for the entire Church all by themselves. Often people simply go beyond the measure as the head knowledge makes up for the gaps in revelation.

Scripture tells us to “take it to the Church” so clearly there was a visible Church to take things to in order to settle disputes between followers.

I have often wondered how you do that. I used to picture an entire congregation sitting around deciding matters.

Scripture also tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. (2Thess 2:15 I believe, running out of time, ask and will give it later ) I believe that Scripture is true for all times. And there is no way for scripture to be true on this if there is not ONE Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

It is the identity and visible image of the one Church that people dispute. Ah…I am thinking of a particular group of people I used to meet with. In fact, I am going to go through some of their writings in order to compare some things we’ve discussed recently. It may be I will have another view of it now that about five years has passed.

The “exact” definitions of the Catholic Church almost all spring from heresy and false teachings that had sprung up.

So, then, you are saying that individuals may have little knowledge or imperfect knowledge that doesn’t affect anything vital, but the Church must know details because some “off” teaching mushrooms into gross heresies and carries multitudes away.

I found an article from *This Rock *By CANON FRANCIS J. RIPLEY TRANSUBSTANTIATION FOR BEGINNERS

I’m reading it today. Thanks for the link.

In scripture wasn’t there a time when Christ went to a city, His own? and left because the unbelief of all prevented Him from doing miracles?

Actually there was. On the other hand, God created the heavens and the earth and none of us had anything to say about it.

So while I do not think we can nulify the work of Christ, I do believe that we can, through unbelief or putting God in a box, limit what God can do for us.

I think that is true.

Will answer the third posting later.

 

[glimmer]

But they don’t and they don’t claim to either. Protestants with communion say that it is “symbolic” of the Last Supper and that they aren’t really eating Jesus’ body and drinking His blood.

Why, then, do I read that Catholics who partake of Protestant communion are in danger of losing their souls? I forget where I read that or I’d give the reference. But it sounds as if they shall lose their souls over something that is really a nothing.

 

[MariaG]

Why, then, do I read that Catholics who partake of Protestant communion are in danger of losing their souls? I forget where I read that or I’d give the reference. But it sounds as if they shall lose their souls over something that is really a nothing.

I was looking for this and could not find words to this effect in the Catechism simply for recieving communion with non-Catholics, ie. the act itself is the danger.

But there is danger in recieving communion in non-Catholic Churches it is not because “nothing” happens in a non-Catholic communion, but because the authority of the Church tells us not to. There are several reasons for this, one a false sense of unity is being promoted.

In the Catholic Church we take (or should take) very seriously the “chain of command”. We can see in scripture in Ephesians about husbands and wives. Just as wives should submit themselves to their husbands, men should be submitting themselves to their priest, priest to bishop, because Christ left one with the keys to be in charge until He comes again.

So the danger lay in recieving is because it is in direct contradiction to those who have been placed in lawful authority over. Ultimately, this can lead to a rejection of God which is why ones soul can be in mortal danger.

I hope this helps a little.

God Bless,
Maria

ps. In Scripture, Christ tells His followers to do what the Pharisees tell you to because they sit in the Seat of Moses. He goes on to say that they are hypocrites and “follow the rules” but not the intent of the rules so don’t do as they act. But Christ did not tell them to not do what those who had been placed in authority over the Jews because those who had the authority acted in the wrong manner.

Matt.23

1] Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples,
2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;
3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

 

[mrs_abbott]

When I was being a bratty kid one time, my mother sat me down, drew a diagram of me with God on one side and Satan on the other. She told me I had to choose. Not to choose God was to automatically default to the side of Satan since we are no match for him. I chose God (not while she was looking, though). At some point, all of us make a decision, conscious or otherwise. I think the consciousness of the decision helps a whole lot.

With consciousness comes clarity.