Excommunication result of Brazil Girl's abortion

[wanner47]

And you seem to be intentionally mitigating the health risks and potential death involved in this particular case.

**All **pregnancies carry health risks, as well as the risk of potential death. Are you saying no woman should ever undergo a pregnancy due to the risks involved?

 

[Christopher68]

:banghead:

I guess when a persons physician’s professional opinion (upon which they stake their professional reputation and the lives of patients) is rendered null and void when such opinions conflict with your own idology then.

You’re trying to paint a ‘best case scenario’ to coincide with your strongly held beliefs. As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death. You seem to be discounting the second possibility, since it conflicts with your ideology.

 

[St_Francis]

St. Frances, the father of the aborted child raped the the 7 year old girl. That is whom I am refering to when I say “the father”. You’ll notice that I have also frequently referred to the 7 year old girl as “the mother” and the 7 year old girls mother as “grandmother”

Though I do understand how this is confusing to keep track of, I don’t think everyone in this thread has settled on the terminology I have. Sorry for the confussion.

Yes, I was confused

 

[crazzeto]

You’re trying to paint a ‘best case scenario’ to coincide with your strongly held beliefs. As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death. You seem to be discounting the second possibility, since it conflicts with your ideology.

And the only case you will accept is a worst case “this child aboslutly will die” despite the professional opinions of the Doctors that eximend her for no reason other than you personally believe in abortion certainly in the case of rape which constitutes an (actual) pro-choice position. Despite your feelings about other cases such as on demand.

Direct abortion is intrinsically evil, and nothing can change this. God willing the grandmother (as well as the doctor) will repent, and seek to have their excommunications lifted.

 

[Christopher68]

And the only case you will accept is a worst case “this child aboslutly will die” despite the professional opinions of the Doctors that eximend her for no reason other than you personally believe in abortion certainly in the case of rape which constitutes an (actual) pro-choice position. Despite your feelings about other cases such as on demand.

Direct abortion is intrinsically evil, and nothing can change this. God willing the grandmother (as well as the doctor) will repent, and seek to have their excommunications lifted.

Your comments about what I supposedly said are in contradiction to what I actually said. Please see post # 122 above.

 

[wanner47]

You’re trying to paint a ‘best case scenario’ to coincide with your strongly held beliefs. As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death. You seem to be discounting the second possibility, since it conflicts with your ideology.

And you’re trying to paint a worst-case scenario that posits an incorrect dichotomy – either abortion or certain death – when this is **contrary **to known facts.

 

[crazzeto]

Your comments about what I supposedly said are in contradiction to what I actually said. Please see post # 122 above.

If that’s the post I think you’re referring to, then I’ll direct you immediatly to my response to said post.

 

[Scoobyshme]

How sad to see so many people who call themselves Catholic act like this life is more important than eternal life? Or that they have bought into the world’s viewpoints rather than the Church’s. No one has ever gone to hell for sticking to the Church’s values. Many have died doing so, but only in this life. If we die to this life, we will have eternal life.

This meaningless difference that people try to make (Oh, she was pregnant because of rape or incest, so that makes it different) is stupid. If she’s pregnant, she is pregnant with a child! As the late Pope John Paul II said, “Stupidity is a gift from God, but it shouldn’t be misused.”

 

[sedonaman]

It was *not *the father who raped the child–it was her stepfather.
…

We were referring to the father of the aborted baby.

 

[Christopher68]

And you’re trying to paint a worst-case scenario that posits an incorrect dichotomy – either abortion or certain death – when this is **contrary **to known facts.

That is 100% false. Here is what I said abve:

As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death.

My comments are perfectly legitimate. There is quite a difference between someone 4 months pregnant and someone 9 months pregnant. I can only imagine the physiological demands on her young body at that age. Contrary to your statement, I did not paint an either/or scenario. I stated that there were a number of possible outcomes, which certainly would have been the case.

If you want to comment on what I actually said, that is fine. Please do not misrepresent or distort my comments in order to make an incorrect assertion.

 

[crazzeto]

That is 100% false. Here is what I said abve:

As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death.

My comments are perfectly legitimate. There is quite a difference between someone 4 months pregnant and someone 9 months pregnant. I can only imagine the physiological demands on her young body at that age. Contrary to your statement, I did not paint an either/or scenario. I stated that there were a number of possible outcomes, which certainly would have been the case.

If you want to comment on what I actually said, that is fine. Please do not misrepresent or distort my comments in order to make an incorrect assertion.

But the evidence at hand suggests a healthy pregancy with a delivery (via C-Section) which should go smoothly and has in several thousand cases.

Yet mysteriously, in the name of ending this pregancy all this information gets thrown right out the window so we can favor the abortion.

More over, as several posters have suggested, ultimatly it is the persons final state after death that we should worry about first and formost, rather than their life. This doesn’t excuse being careless with people lives, but by the same token… An intrinsically evil act can never be supported, as it will tend to put the individauls soul in grave jepordy.

 

[wanner47]

That is 100% false. Here is what I said abve:

As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death.

My comments are perfectly legitimate. There is quite a difference between someone 4 months pregnant and someone 9 months pregnant. I can only imagine the physiological demands on her young body at that age. Contrary to your statement, I did not paint an either/or scenario. I stated that there were a number of possible outcomes, which certainly would have been the case.

If you want to comment on what I actually said, that is fine. Please do not misrepresent or distort my comments in order to make an incorrect assertion.

The age of viability is 5 months, not 9 months. That’s where you’re off. You keep thinking that we’re saying the girl should be strapped down and forcibly kept pregnant until her due date, when that’s not true at all (and that’s unlikely for a twin pregnancy in any case).

ONE MONTH and it’s possible those babies could have been delivered via C-section and possibly saved. ONE MONTH. Apparently, one month was worth more than those babies’ lives. That is a tragedy.

 

[St_Francis]

You’re trying to paint a ‘best case scenario’ to coincide with your strongly held beliefs. As I stated previously - the young girl MAY have been able to deliver with minimal complications and both her and the baby MAY have been okay health wise. It is also possible that the young girl MAY have had serious health complications and even death. You seem to be discounting the second possibility, since it conflicts with your ideology.

As it happens, in this particular case, the girl was healthy and her life was not in danger.

However, even if her pregnancy had not been going so well, it would still have been just as wrong to intentionally kill the unborn babies.

The health of the mother does not have a bearing on “our” “ideology,” which is why we are somewhat confused by your remarks.

 

[Christopher68]

The health of the mother does not have a bearing on “our” “ideology,” which is why we are somewhat confused by your remarks.

Now I’m confused. Are you saying you are unconcerned about the mother’s health?

When I first read about this tragic story, I had two initial reactions. First, I was utterly disgusted by the actions of the stepfather and wanted him to spend the rest of his life in prison at the very least. Second, I wondered how a very young girl could possibly deliver a baby without serious health consequences to either her or the baby.

Several posters on this thread have stated that the young girl was healthy and that the baby would have been fine. That may have been the case. I also made the point that there may have been upcoming complications due to her young age. The fact is - we just don’t know.

 

[sedonaman]

I guess there is no hope of getting back on topic of excommunication in this case.

 

[St_Francis]

Now I’m confused. Are you saying you are unconcerned about the mother’s health?

By no means. What I am saying is that abortion is wrong, period. It does not change the wrongness of the abortion if the mother’s health or even life is in danger.

When I first read about this tragic story, I had two initial reactions. First, I was utterly disgusted by the actions of the stepfather and wanted him to spend the rest of his life in prison at the very least.

I think pretty much everyone in the world agreed with you there!

Second, I wondered how a very young girl could possibly deliver a baby without serious health consequences to either her or the baby.

It can and has happened on many occasions.

Several posters on this thread have stated that the young girl was healthy and that the baby would have been fine. That may have been the case. I also made the point that there may have been upcoming complications due to her young age. The fact is - we just don’t know.

Brazil has a big problem with very young mothers, but their medical community has responded to the point where their pro-abortion lobbying group has to admit that the outcomes are better for the young mothers than for mothers overall.

It may well have been that as the twins grew, they would have caused a problem for the little girl who was carrying them, but this is why we have C-sections–for times when mothers have problems. Killing the unborn babies was not a solution even to any possible problems which may have come up.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

No grief from me. Excellent post. :clapping:

It accomplished what you said it did. Not exactly the same but something similar occured when the Church protects the innocent but then covered up child abuse from within. It accomplished some of those same things.

And this is the same logic used to justify the use of Nuclear weapons in a first strike. Inreasing violence to prevent a possible bad outcome. How many citizenz from the country of “Peoplethatareinnocentbutneedtodie” is acceptable to prevent 10, 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000 citizens for the country of “Peoplethatdontwanttoriskwar” ?

This is war the Church will not agree that UNJUST killing is acceptable. The Church has a Just-War doctrine as well as allows the killing of criminals under certain circumstances, but the taking of an innocent life. Pretty hard to justify.

 

[chain]

I could be wrong, but think the mortal sin of abortion results in self excommunication. It is not a matter of the church doing it - the act itself causes the individuals to be excommunicated.

That said, a girl of that age would not be in full communion with the church - so even if it was a mortal sin for her (I don’t think it would be), excommunication would not be possible.

Abortion is wrong and unacceptable, medical procedures to preserve the life of the mother (while treating the fetus with dignity) are acceptable.

 

[The_Reginator]

My children are grown, but let me tell you as a mother and a Catholic, I would have had the doctors do everything possible to save the lives of my child AND my grandchildren. Not one over the other.

And had my daughter died despite those best efforts, I would have the comfort of knowing that she and other innocents would be safe in the arms of Almighty God and that by NOT allowing myself to sin through procuring an abortion, that I likewise would not be damning myself and separating myself forever from my daughter, and the grandchildren, and Almighty God.

Life is precious, yes. Would I regret having less time to spend with my child? Heavens, yes. But would I ‘bargain’ for a few more ‘earthly years’ at the expense of my immortal soul, possibly of hers as she grew to maturity and perhaps would embrace the culture of death in an attempt to ‘cope’, and condemn innocent babies to death for no fault of their own? No, I would not.

I do believe that this thread is about the fate of our immortal souls, not whether or the abortion of this particular soul may seem legitimate to some heretics.

 

[Doc_Keele]

That’s a rather obstiant position to take, do you seirously mean to say you’re not going to believe it unless you fly to brazil, and talk directly to the Doctors? And of course the likelyhood this is going to happen is very small, so I guess you’ll choose to never believe it?

I didn’t mean the medics in Brazil, I meant medics who know about maternal mortality in that age group - the statistics have been misquoted for one, since comparing that age group with all mothers is not sound for starters.