EXCOMMUNICATION THREAT witness gag order in church sex trial

[Saint_Michael]

nypost.com/seven/11172006/news/regionalnews/excommunication_threat_regionalnews_jeane_macintosh_in_erie__pa___and_dan_mangan_in_n_y_.htm

"November 17, 2006 – Catholic officials are threatening to excommunicate witnesses at a top New York priest’s sexual misconduct trial if they dare discuss their testimony outside the church court, The Post has learned.

That extremely unusual threat is being wielded even as the priest’s accuser, former Catholic high school student Daniel Donohue, and victim advocates have requested Monsignor Charles Kavanagh’s church trial in Erie, Pa., be made open to the public. "

"“That’s pretty heavy duty, and significant and serious,” said the Rev. Thomas Green, a Catholic University professor and expert in canon law, which is the basis for the ongoing trial. Green said he has never heard of an excommunication threat being made against a lay witness at a church trial.

Kavanagh, 69, is accused of having an inappropriate, sexually tinged relationship with Donohue 30 years ago, when the Peekskill teen studied at a Manhattan school the priest ran. In one instance, Kavanagh allegedly climbed into bed with him during a trip. "

How can we say with a straight face our leadership has learned to stop the secrecy and cover ups? Why not do this out in the open?

 

[bones_IV]

nypost.com/seven/11172006/news/regionalnews/excommunication_threat_regionalnews_jeane_macintosh_in_erie__pa___and_dan_mangan_in_n_y_.htm

"November 17, 2006 – Catholic officials are threatening to excommunicate witnesses at a top New York priest’s sexual misconduct trial if they dare discuss their testimony outside the church court, The Post has learned.

That extremely unusual threat is being wielded even as the priest’s accuser, former Catholic high school student Daniel Donohue, and victim advocates have requested Monsignor Charles Kavanagh’s church trial in Erie, Pa., be made open to the public. "

"“That’s pretty heavy duty, and significant and serious,” said the Rev. Thomas Green, a Catholic University professor and expert in canon law, which is the basis for the ongoing trial. Green said he has never heard of an excommunication threat being made against a lay witness at a church trial.

Kavanagh, 69, is accused of having an inappropriate, sexually tinged relationship with Donohue 30 years ago, when the Peekskill teen studied at a Manhattan school the priest ran. In one instance, Kavanagh allegedly climbed into bed with him during a trip. "

How can we say with a straight face our leadership has learned to stop the secrecy and cover ups? Why not do this out in the open?

Can you say with your hit and run posts that you stop bashing the Church?

 

[KathleenElsie]

Why be in such a hurry. Spell check is quick.

As to the **EXCOMMUNICATION THREAT. The assault of a priest is an automatic EXCOMMUNICATION. **So it is possible that is how it is being looked at. If this priest is found not to be guilty of the charges then the public disclosure of the testimony would be equal to bringing false charges (verbal assault) against a priest.

Not having read the disclosure contract we do not know what this covers. Besides not everything should be made public.

 

[bones_IV]

nypost.com/seven/11172006/news/regionalnews/excommunication_threat_regionalnews_jeane_macintosh_in_erie__pa___and_dan_mangan_in_n_y_.htm

"November 17, 2006 – Catholic officials are threatening to excommunicate witnesses at a top New York priest’s sexual misconduct trial if they dare discuss their testimony outside the church court, The Post has learned.

That extremely unusual threat is being wielded even as the priest’s accuser, former Catholic high school student Daniel Donohue, and victim advocates have requested Monsignor Charles Kavanagh’s church trial in Erie, Pa., be made open to the public. "

"“That’s pretty heavy duty, and significant and serious,” said the Rev. Thomas Green, a Catholic University professor and expert in canon law, which is the basis for the ongoing trial. Green said he has never heard of an excommunication threat being made against a lay witness at a church trial.

Kavanagh, 69, is accused of having an inappropriate, sexually tinged relationship with Donohue 30 years ago, when the Peekskill teen studied at a Manhattan school the priest ran. In one instance, Kavanagh allegedly climbed into bed with him during a trip. "

How can we say with a straight face our leadership has learned to stop the secrecy and cover ups? Why not do this out in the open?

Secular courts routinely issue “gag orders” preventing witnesses and other participants from talking outside the courtroom. The reason is the same as here – to prevent “trial by newspaper.”

 

[Mr_Jullien]

Why be in such a hurry. Spell check is quick.

As to the **EXCOMMUNICATION THREAT. The assault of a priest is an automatic EXCOMMUNICATION. **So it is possible that is how it is being looked at. If this priest is found not to be guilty of the charges then the public disclosure of the testimony would be equal to bringing false charges (verbal assault) against a priest.

Not having read the disclosure contract we do not know what this covers. Besides not everything should be made public.

I was thinking the same thing. What if the charges are, indeed false, and the priest is innocent? Verbal assaults would only make his life more miserable.

I, personally, don’t take any charges seriously unless and until the priest is proven guilty, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

He should receive the same considerations as anyone else on trial.

PAX,

Jullien

 

[Corki]

At this point, we are talking about an internal investigation. In the private sector, when there is an investigation of employee misconduct, the hearings and meetings are strictly confidential - especially in cases of a sexual or personal nature. If and when this becomes a criminal investigation, then you can talk about open access.

If the Church’s goal is to find out the truth, it will be thrwarted in that goal if all of her investigations are publically scrutinized and probably mis-represented in the media.

 

[michaelmac]

Why be in such a hurry. Spell check is quick.

As to the **EXCOMMUNICATION THREAT. The assault of a priest is an automatic EXCOMMUNICATION. **So it is possible that is how it is being looked at. If this priest is found not to be guilty of the charges then the public disclosure of the testimony would be equal to bringing false charges (verbal assault) against a priest.

Not having read the disclosure contract we do not know what this covers. Besides not everything should be made public.

So if a priest abusers a child why his he not EXCOMMUNICATED ,The abuse to a child is a lot more damaging ,than been accused of some thing as an adult ,I know this from both sides as a survivor of sexual abuse and being jailed for things i was innocent of ,yours Michael McManus

 

[Corki]

So if a priest abusers a child why his he not EXCOMMUNICATED ,The abuse to a child is a lot more damaging ,than been accused of some thing as an adult ,I know this from both sides as a survivor of sexual abuse and being jailed for things i was innocent of ,yours Michael McManus

Most of the things that incur automatic excommunication are sins against the Church, not against a person. Things like heresy, for example. The only exception I can think of is abortion. It is singled out as excommunicatable.

Child abuse is a grave and, nearly always, mortal sin. If the abuser does not repent he/she goes to Hell - a fate much worse than excommunication. Same thing for most serious sins including murder, rape, armed robbery etc. What is hard for many people to grasp, however, is that, just like all of those other sins, once a person confesses and repents, he/she is forgiven. There is no “unforgivable sin” clause for child abuse.

Excommunication is not the ULTIMATE punishment that it is painted to be. It is intended to be a “wake up call” for someone to ammend their ways. It is NOT being kicked out of the Church.

 

[DWPC]

An oath of silence is more than sufficient. Violation of such an oath would be a grievous sin. Explicit threat of excommunication is kind of hysterical over-reaction that just feeds anti-Catholic sentiment.

 

[michaelmac]

Most of the things that incur automatic excommunication are sins against the Church, not against a person. Things like heresy, for example. The only exception I can think of is abortion. It is singled out as excommunicatable.

Child abuse is a grave and, nearly always, mortal sin. If the abuser does not repent he/she goes to Hell - a fate much worse than excommunication. Same thing for most serious sins including murder, rape, armed robbery etc. What is hard for many people to grasp, however, is that, just like all of those other sins, once a person confesses and repents, he/she is forgiven. There is no “unforgivable sin” clause for child abuse.

Excommunication is not the ULTIMATE punishment that it is painted to be. It is intended to be a “wake up call” for someone to ammend their ways. It is NOT being kicked out of the Church.

I am very puzzled ,How can some one repent ,If they have destroyed a life ,yours Michael McManus

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

nypost.com/seven/11172006/news/regionalnews/excommunication_threat_regionalnews_jeane_macintosh_in_erie__pa___and_dan_mangan_in_n_y_.htm

"November 17, 2006 – Catholic officials are threatening to excommunicate witnesses at a top New York priest’s sexual misconduct trial if they dare discuss their testimony outside the church court, The Post has learned.

That extremely unusual threat is being wielded even as the priest’s accuser, former Catholic high school student Daniel Donohue, and victim advocates have requested Monsignor Charles Kavanagh’s church trial in Erie, Pa., be made open to the public. "

"“That’s pretty heavy duty, and significant and serious,” said the Rev. Thomas Green, a Catholic University professor and expert in canon law, which is the basis for the ongoing trial. Green said he has never heard of an excommunication threat being made against a lay witness at a church trial.

Kavanagh, 69, is accused of having an inappropriate, sexually tinged relationship with Donohue 30 years ago, when the Peekskill teen studied at a Manhattan school the priest ran. In one instance, Kavanagh allegedly climbed into bed with him during a trip. "

How can we say with a straight face our leadership has learned to stop the secrecy and cover ups? Why not do this out in the open?

I don’t think it is a wise move for the Church to issue such threats.
Since the silence method hasnt worked to their advantage before.
But let’s not forget that it is the Church.

And She can excoumicate or threaten anyone she wants.
With us obliged to stand by Her side.

 

[Steven_Merten]

So if a priest abusers a child why his he not EXCOMMUNICATED ,The abuse to a child is a lot more damaging ,than been accused of some thing as an adult ,I know this from both sides as a survivor of sexual abuse and being jailed for things i was innocent of ,yours Michael McManus

Hello Michael,

I agree with you. Jesus agrees with you.

Throwing Stones

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna. Anathema

…“To understand the word anathema”, says Vigouroux, “we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated,"…but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven”… …“Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church.”…“stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss,”…In passing this sentence, the pontiff…

**…the formula of anathema **which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate …
**…He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.**Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema **NAB MAT 16:13 **

I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

**NAB REV 1:16 **A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth,…
…I hold the keys of death and the nether world."
**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with therod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

NAB MAT 18:17

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello all,

Cardinal Bernard Law, with the power to anathematize, called upon God to bring down His wrath on the Boston Globe. Cardinal Bernard law used his Christ given power and authority to attempt to gag the Boston Globe. The Boston Globe persevered Cardinal Bernard Law’s spiritual attack on their souls and continued on to bring an end to the henious abomination of Catholic Bishops secretly moving known clergy child molesters from one unsuspecting group of children to the next.

There have never been any demands from the Vatican that Cardinal Bernard Law “loost” his request to God that God bring down His wrath on the Boston Globe. As far as we can tell, the Boston Globe is still under the curse, possibly Church anathema, that Cardinal Bernard law placed on them in his attempt to gag them from telling the truth.

The Vatican did see to it that Cardinal Bernard Law take a place of honor at Pope John Paul II funeral. It is Cardinal Bernard Law, the offender, who the Church wants to preserve the image of and not the souls of the Boston Globe who liberated thousands of children from the possibility of thirty more years of clergy abuse.

Jesus “entrusted” Apostolic Successors with the power to bind souls to sin and anathematize. Not all Apostolic Successors are worthy of His trust.

Cardinal Law on the ropesTen years ago, in the midst of an earlier pedophile scandal, Cardinal Law called down the wrath of God on the media. Now the media are giving him hell.BY DAN KENNEDY ALMOST EXACTLY a decade ago, Cardinal Law lashed out at the media for what he saw as their excessive coverage of another notorious pedophile priest, James Porter. “We call down God’s power on our business leaders and the political leaders and community leaders. By all means we call down God’s power on the media, particularly the Globe,” Law was reported as saying in an angry outburst during — of all things — an antiviolence march.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/02187944.htm

**NAB MAT 16:13 **I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[Denise_Shae]

I am very puzzled ,How can some one repent ,If they have destroyed a life ,yours Michael McManus

Hi michaelmac,

Please don’t think I’m unsympathetic to people whose lives are/have been destroyed over such things, but the truth is: Anywone with a contrite heart can repent and amend their lives.
Yes, even some priests who have done despicable things.

All of us sinners can and should repent of our sins and try as best as we can to amend our lives.

Our Lord, in His mercy and love, doesn’t say: “Well, since you’re a priest, I’m not going to forgive you”. Or “No; you murdered someone, no forgiveness for you”. (murderers destroy not only the lives of their victims but also the lives of their victim’s families)
Same goes with adulterers. Many families are destroyed because of an adulterous spouse, and sadly, it’s the children who suffer the most.
Yet, even though the family may not forgive the offending spouse, Jesus does if he/she is contrite and asks forgiveness.

Priests are human beings just like the rest of us.

The only sin, our Lord cannot forgive is unrepentant sin.

God Bless!

 

[michaelmac]

Hi michaelmac,

Please don’t think I’m unsympathetic to people whose lives are/have been destroyed over such things, but the truth is: Anywone with a contrite heart can repent and amend their lives.
Yes, even some priests who have done despicable things.

All of us sinners can and should repent of our sins and try as best as we can to amend our lives.

Our Lord, in His mercy and love, doesn’t say: “Well, since you’re a priest, I’m not going to forgive you”. Or “No; you murdered someone, no forgiveness for you”. (murderers destroy not only the lives of their victims but also the lives of their victim’s families)
Same goes with adulterers. Many families are destroyed because of an adulterous spouse, and sadly, it’s the children who suffer the most.
Yet, even though the family may not forgive the offending spouse, Jesus does if he/she is contrite and asks forgiveness.

Priests are human beings just like the rest of us.

The only sin, our Lord cannot forgive is unrepentant sin.

God Bless!

The church has a problem ,That it has never faced IN MATTHEW 18 Jesus does not for give those who harm children ,In doing what the Church states ,It is making its self out better than Jesus and it knows more than he did ,Matthew 18 is very clear ,And the church uses other texts from the bible ,which any adult would know if they read the bible would know goes against Jesus teaching ,People cannot be Christians if they do not follow Jesus teaching yours Michael McManus

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, Matthew 18 is very clear. Jesus says that it is an incredible sin to lead a child into sin. It is also clear that Jesus is not just talking about children - just prior to the children comment is the question about who is the greatest of the disciples. So, when Jesus speaks of children, He is also speaking of the relationship between the disciples and the followers of Jesus. IOW…it is an incredible sin for a priest or bishop to lead one of the faithful astray.

I don’t see, however, where Matthew 18 says that such a person is unforgivable. In fact, the latter half of Matthew 18 is all about forgiveness:

21 18 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 19 Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. 23 That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.

34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. 23 35 24 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."

So, apparently you will be handed over the torturers unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

What these priests and bishops have done is awful, and the Church needs to repair itself. But, don’t think for a second that they are beyond forgiveness.

God bless,

Robert

The church has a problem ,That it has never faced IN MATTHEW 18 Jesus does not for give those who harm children ,In doing what the Church states ,It is making its self out better than Jesus and it knows more than he did ,Matthew 18 is very clear ,And the church uses other texts from the bible ,which any adult would know if they read the bible would know goes against Jesus teaching ,People cannot be Christians if they do not follow Jesus teaching yours Michael McManus

 

[Denise_Shae]

The church has a problem ,That it has never faced IN MATTHEW 18 Jesus does not for give those who harm children ,In doing what the Church states ,It is making its self out better than Jesus and it knows more than he did ,Matthew 18 is very clear ,And the church uses other texts from the bible ,which any adult would know if they read the bible would know goes against Jesus teaching ,People cannot be Christians if they do not follow Jesus teaching yours Michael McManus

Well, I admit I’ve been a little lax, lately in my Scripture reading, so would you please cite these texts to which you are referring?

RE: “People cannot be Christians if they do not follow Jesus teaching”​

I agree, and we do follow Jesus’ Teachings, through the Magesterium of the Church which He founded 2,000 years ago.

God Bless!

 

[michaelmac]

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
The first part of the above text is very simple to understand , Jesus is saying your life on earth is over if you harm a child ,does any of whats said here say he is forgiving those who harm children.Yours Michael McManus

 

[Denise_Shae]

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
The first part of the above text is very simple to understand , Jesus is saying your life on earth is over if you harm a child ,does any of whats said here say he is forgiving those who harm children.Yours Michael McManus

Michaelmac,

When we take passages separately, rather than in the full context of the Chapter, we have Jesus contradicting Himself.

You see, the passage you cite in Matthew 18:5-9 (DRV)

5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me. 6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

disagrees with Jesus’ teaching of the necessity for us to forgive (in order to be forgiven, ourselves) in Matthew 18:23-35 (DRV)

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. 29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt. 31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

There’s no way to misinterpret verse 35, here.
This verse does not say,
“So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother (except for those who harm children), from your hearts.”

Jesus is talking about everybody.

If a sinner is contrite of heart and repents, he is forgiven by God, and we too (as difficult as it is) must also forgive.

Verse 35 is crystal clear on this.

God Bless!

 

[Denise_Shae]

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
The first part of the above text is very simple to understand , Jesus is saying your life on earth is over if you harm a child ,does any of whats said here say he is forgiving those who harm children.Yours Michael McManus

P.S. – I’m not trying to be sarcastic here, or unsympathetic, but if you’re going to take the first part literally, then why not take the second part literally as well?

If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

That text seems simple enough to understand, as well.
We can’t just choose Biblical texts to suite our own personal beliefs/feelings and ignore the other texts.
It doesn’t work that way.

God Bless!