EXCOMMUNICATION THREAT witness gag order in church sex trial

[michaelmac]

rlg94086 Hi Michael,

Can you clarify your comment? Do you believe that all priests and bishops have lost their moral authority, or are you commenting on some specific priests and bishops in Dublin and London?

God bless, Quote

Robert , yes i was commenting on a number who have said sorry for their actions , Then in the next sentence they have said i did nothing wrong , And remember we would not exchanging veiws on this subject but for the cover up of abuse .People think i am anti Catholic ,I am not ,I just want children to be able to be children and not go through the hell i did as a child ,And if they did be given all the help they need yours michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If the Church is going to use spiritually destructive punishments like anathema or excommunication to get to the trurh in court, such spiritually destructive punishments should be targetted at the wicked guilty culprits and not the witnesses.

The Church should excommunicate or anathamatize any Cardinal, Pope, Bishop, Priest or Catholic lay person who has not yet come forward to reveal the truth in court about the clergy abuse scandal. Once they come forward and confess in court the truth about the scandal, then yes the Church could loost the anathema or excommunication. If, after being compelled to tell the truth in court or suffer anathema or excommunication, they still refuse to confess in court then it will be the spiritual destruction related to Church excommunication or Church anathema that they face in the next world. Now this is how the Church should use spiritually destructive punishments to get clergy to confess the truth in court.

The Church should be targeting the the wicked clergy child molesters and any Bishop who knowingly, secretly put sex offenders where they could abuse children. These are the guys who should face Church retribution of excommunication or anathema lest they repent and confess in court.

There is no redress in law at all against the Pope - he can’t be sued, anathematised, excommunicated, or disciplined in any way whatever by any power on earth - not even an Ecumenical Council (it would be ecumenical only if recognised such by the Pope)​

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**So if he wanted to sacrifice a bull to Zeus in St. Peter’s - there would be no way to stop him doing so. He is answerable to no one & nothing on earth. **Which IMHO is wrong - but so what ? ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Actually, the Vatican has started defrocking priests for confirmed sexual abuse of children. There were at least two priests in Des Moines, Iowa, recently defrocked for just that. See this article: ktiv.com/News/index.php?ID=6913

As for excommunicating them, my question is this–is the average Catholic in the pews for sexual sins against children? If the answer is no, and I have a feeling it is, why should priests be treated any differently?

Child sexual abuse is a tragedy, but Catholic priests are by far not the only people guilty of it. They are, however, taking a much heavier rap for it than other groups of people–i.e. public school officials–who have been proven more prone to such abuse, and basically solely because they are priests.

Also, make no mistake, the vast majority of these cases are men sexually abusing post-pubescent male teens, which is not the same as pedophilia, although it is often called pedophilia. Pedophilia is its own monster and its own special category of sexual deviancy. What we most commonly see with Catholic priests, however, is more likely to be homosexuality run amok than it is to be true pedophilia.

**Adultery, child molestation, clerical & lay incontinence, all homicide, all fraud, should all incur excommunication. There should be no distinction between Catholics merely because they have different vocations in the Church. And there should be absolute impartiality - if Popes sin in these ways, or peasants, that should make not a jot of difference - except that Popes like that should be treated with exemplary & terrible severity, precisely because their sins are more visible, therefore, far more scandalous than those of some peasant in the back of beyond. ****Instead of their exalted position being a protection against punishment, it should expose them to far heavier punishment than anyone else. **​

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Those who have authority should regard it not as an opportunity for power over others, but as opening opportunities to serve others which are greater than those God gives to others. The sooner this distorted notion of authority as being given so that we can domimate over others is abolished from the midst of the Church, the better for us all, & especially for the mission of the Church. ##

 

[rr1213]

There is no redress in law at all against the Pope - he can’t be sued, anathematised, excommunicated, or disciplined in any way whatever by any power on earth - not even an Ecumenical Council (it would be ecumenical only if recognised such by the Pope)​

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**So if he wanted to sacrifice a bull to Zeus in St. Peter’s - there would be no way to stop him doing so. He is answerable to no one & nothing on earth. **Which IMHO is wrong - but so what ? ##

Let me be clear that the last and current popes have been very good men, so this comment is speculative only. However, the pope is a head of state. If he should be involved in crimes against humanity, for example, I think he could be tried by an international tribunal under international law. For the life of me, I can’t really conceptualize what a pope could do that would qualify as such a crime, but it is at least theoretically possible. Also, with the number of Catholics in the world, whichever government that tried to do this would be committing political suicide but, still, in theory…

 

[Lance]

IMO this is just another mistake in a long list made by the bishops in handling the sexual abuse scandal.

 

[OriginalJS]

An oath of silence is more than sufficient. Violation of such an oath would be a grievous sin. Explicit threat of excommunication is kind of hysterical over-reaction that just feeds anti-Catholic sentiment.

I agree. Excommunication should be reserved for truly serious matters. I know people get very angry with persons who give adverse testimony, but that is no cause to damn someone’s soul to hell. Violation of a gag order draws nothing more than court sanctions, jailing for contempt, fines etc., not death.

 

[OriginalJS]

There is no redress in law at all against the Pope - he can’t be sued, anathematised, excommunicated, or disciplined in any way whatever by any power on earth - not even an Ecumenical Council (it would be ecumenical only if recognised such by the Pope)​

**So if he wanted to sacrifice a bull to Zeus in St. Peter’s - there would be no way to stop him doing so. He is answerable to no one & nothing on earth. **Which IMHO is wrong - but so what ? ##

I think this is correct according to canon law. If I recall correctly, John XII used to raise a glass to Satan from time to time.

 

[Steven_Merten]

There is no redress in law at all against the Pope - he can’t be sued, anathematised, excommunicated, or disciplined in any way whatever by any power on earth - not even an Ecumenical Council (it would be ecumenical only if recognised such by the Pope)​

**So if he wanted to sacrifice a bull to Zeus in St. Peter’s - there would be no way to stop him doing so. He is answerable to no one & nothing on earth. **Which IMHO is wrong - but so what ? ##

Hello Gottle of Geer,

I disagree. Here is an example.

The Church has automatic excommunication for procuring an abortion. If a Pope procured an abortion for a girlfriend, niece or friend, he would automatically be excommunicated just like any other Catholic. The Pope is not outside of the law of the Church. If you can provide Church documents stating otherwise, please do.

I have never heard that the Pope is not bound by Church law.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Let me be clear that the last and current popes have been very good men, so this comment is speculative only. However, the pope is a head of state. If he should be involved in crimes against humanity, for example, I think he could be tried by an international tribunal under international law. For the life of me, I can’t really conceptualize what a pope could do that would qualify as such a crime, but it is at least theoretically possible. Also, with the number of Catholics in the world, whichever government that tried to do this would be committing political suicide but, still, in theory…

Hello rr1213,

Times are changing.

Cardinal Lavada took over Pope Benedict’s old job of Perfect of the Faith. Before He could leave the US, he had to swear in court that He would return to Oregon, when sopeniad, to testify in regards to clery sexual abuses of children when he was bishop there.

When Condolesa Rice visited the Vatican, Vatican officials requested her to have the Bush administration protect them from American law suits in regard to the clergy abuse scandal. Condolesa Rice assured Vatican officials that their diplomatic immunity would hold and Pope John Paul II would not be required to devulge what and when he knew about the abuses to American children, in American courts.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Ok, here’s a question. Let’s assume for the sake of discussion that the Church Court finds that this priest sexually abused children. If that finding is made, will the Church turn its evidence over to the District Attorney for prosecution or will it threaten excommunication of anyone who discloses the verdict? Charges like this should be brought in a court of law pursuant to the authority of the civil magistrate. There is a reason why scripture reminds us that it is not for nothing that the magistrate bears the sword.

I guess I’d have to give the 2,000 year old Bride of Christ the benefit of the doubt.
At Her age, She doesn’t move fast; doesn’t decide things fast; doesn’t jump to hastey conclusions or knee-jerk reactions; but we can still trust Her judgement, ultimately, to be in accord with God’s Will.
In this rapid-paced, drive-thru, information-superhighway, gotta have it right now society, we find it frustrating at times that the Church doesn’t move on our timetable.
The more years I spend on this planet, I’m beginning to appreciate that She doesn’t rush things - especially important things.
If I was Pope, I’d put a rush on certain things.
Guess that’s why God didn’t make me pope…didn’t call me to the priesthood…and just made me lowly little me…
(…but thank and praise Him, He made me! And He made whole - in the Catholic Faith!)