Excommunication?

[Leegal]

I understand that if a woman has an abortion she cannot marry in the Church, cannot take part in the liturgy, cannot receive the Eucharist. She can attend Mass, but is prohibited from the receiving of sacraments – and that includes Confession too.

I understand that she is Excommunicated.

1. is it so that the Excommunication must be lifted FIRST, as even the sacrament of reconciliation cannot be performed until the Excommunication is addressed.
2. and that not all priests in the U.S. have the authoritity to lift an Excommunication so that the Sacrament of Reconciliation cannot take place until the priest has conferred with his Bishop or already has the authority. In another place here, I read that in the U.S., all priests have the authority to lift an Excommunication before hearing the full confession.

The woman must first tell the priest that the issue involves Excommunication before the priest can or should hear the full confession.

I read that some women who have taken the Sacrament of Penance may not have had the Excommunication lifted and may be unaware.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu70.htm

Does anyone know how this takes place in the U.S.? Thank you.

God Bless.

 

[sw85]

I understand that if a woman has an abortion she cannot marry in the Church, cannot take part in the liturgy, cannot receive the Eucharist. She can attend Mass, but is prohibited from the receiving of sacraments – and that includes Confession too.

I understand that she is Excommunicated.

1. is it so that the Excommunication must be lifted FIRST, as even the sacrament of reconciliation cannot be performed until the Excommunication is addressed.
2. and that not all priests in the U.S. have the authoritity to lift an Excommunication so that the Sacrament of Reconciliation cannot take place until the priest has conferred with his Bishop or already has the authority. In another place here, I read that in the U.S., all priests have the authority to lift an Excommunication before hearing the full confession.

The woman must first tell the priest that the issue involves Excommunication before the priest can or should hear the full confession.

I read that some women who have taken the Sacrament of Penance may not have had the Excommunication lifted and may be unaware.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu70.htm

Does anyone know how this takes place in the U.S.? Thank you.

God Bless.

My (limited) understanding is that such excommunications can be lifted only by a bishop or by a priest explicitly appointed by the bishop to resolve such matters on his behalf before any sacraments can be licitly received.

I’m not sure how that process works but I’m given to understand that it involves at least one face-to-face meeting with the bishop or designated priest.

Hope that helps.

 

[Leegal]

Thank you. The woman has an appointment with a priest and already disclosed that this will involve an Excommunication. Since he made the appointment knowing that Excommunication is the first order of business, I assume he knows how he is to proceed.

Since the city is obviously, New York City, the priest has access to His Bishop. In my experience, we penitents have limited access to Bishops. I only recall, for example, the Bishop who confirmed me. Beyond that, I cannot recall ever having contact with a Bishop so the woman would be hard pressed to find a Bishop without a priest’s intervention.

On another note, this was hard enough for the woman. One Church thought it would be sufficient for the person to go to regular Saturday confession because the woman could not disclose to the person on the phone, who was a student helping with the phones, that this would involve an Excommunication – she could not speak to a priest and none called back.

However, I knew this would not be the case – just go on Saturday at 4:00 p.m., nor would it be simple.

Thank you again. God Bless.

 

[Big_Feet]

With any mortal sin, one, by definition, is excommunicated from the Church, as one is seperated from the love of God by his/her own actions. In this particular case, it is my understanding that all priests in the US have the ability to forgive and absolve the sin of abortion as long as it has only occured once, and the one confessing is truly and completely sorry for the action that was taken.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

With any mortal sin, one, by definition, is excommunicated from the Church, as one is seperated from the love of God by his/her own actions. In this particular case, it is my understanding that all priests in the US have the ability to forgive and absolve the sin of abortion as long as it has only occured once, and the one confessing is truly and completely sorry for the action that was taken.

This is false. While mortal sin does ordinarily mean you cannot receive other sacraments without prior sacramental confession, excommunication is an ecclesial penalty above and beyond this.

 

[Cristiano]

…The woman must first tell the priest that the issue involves Excommunication before the priest can or should hear the full confession…

That is not quite correct! The priest cannot give absolution without dealing with the excommunication issue first.

 

[Leegal]

With any mortal sin, one, by definition, is excommunicated from the Church, as one is seperated from the love of God by his/her own actions. In this particular case, it is my understanding that all priests in the US have the ability to forgive and absolve the sin of abortion as long as it has only occured once, and the one confessing is truly and completely sorry for the action that was taken.

I understood this to be the case, however an exception is made for blasphemy and abortion in that the penitent cannot even receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation, until the Excommunication is lifted first because it is “excommunication latae sententiae.”

For example, if the woman had committed another mortal sin, she could make a good confession and be absolved – any other mortal sin. But, research seems to support that in the case of abortion and blasphemy (abortion is also blasphemy according to the link I provided), that a different process takes place in the case of abortion or blasphemy.

The article suggests that some women may think they are in the state of grace, and may not be true for maybe over 75% of the woman who have gone to confession. I don’t understand how that could happen.

In any case, the woman I spoke of did reveal before making the appointment that the reason for the appointment begins with an Excommunication. The priest is already aware of the gravity of the situation, but not the actual confession, of course.

Thank you and God Bless.

 

[Leegal]

That is not quite correct! The priest cannot give absolution without dealing with the excommunication issue first.

I thought that was what we were all saying. The Excommunication must be lifted before the priest can hear the confession, with the end result being an absolution from all sin – including the sin or abortion. But, an excommunicant cannot even receive confession, unlike other mortal sins. That’s my understanding. The excommunication is a further issue that must first be resolved in order for the penitent to confess and receive absolution.

The question is about the U.S. Some information suggests that the priest has the authority, through his Bishop to lift the excommunication. Some information suggests that not all priests in the U.S. can lift an excommunication and the priest may have to go to his Bishop with the issue first. Yes?

Thank you and God Bless.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I understood this to be the case, however an exception is made for blasphemy and abortion in that the penitent cannot even receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation, until the Excommunication is lifted first because it is “excommunication latae sententiae.”

For example, if the woman had committed another mortal sin, she could make a good confession and be absolved – any other mortal sin. But, research seems to support that in the case of abortion and blasphemy (abortion is also blasphemy according to the link I provided), that a different process takes place in the case of abortion or blasphemy.

The article suggests that some women may think they are in the state of grace, and may not be true for maybe over 75% of the woman who have gone to confession. I don’t understand how that could happen.

In any case, the woman I spoke of did reveal before making the appointment that the reason for the appointment begins with an Excommunication. The priest is already aware of the gravity of the situation, but not the actual confession, of course.

Thank you and God Bless.

First of all, remember that you can be in a state of grace even while excommunicated.

Second, the argument in the article seems to be that most priests don’t know that abortion causes a person to be automatically excommunicated. While in my very limited experience some priests are indeed woefully ignorant in areas like moral theology and Christology, they generally seem to know these sorts of rules of the Church, so I’m skeptical of that claim. This impression is based on a fairly small sampling of priests though.

 

[Leegal]

Wanted to add that if it is true, and I don’t know it this could happen, that maybe 75% or more of women who have gone to confession may not have had the excommunication lifted and still be excommunicated latae sententiae.

The article suggests “they did not follow Church policy.” Not sure who “they” is. The priest? Surely, he would know if he has to consult with a Bishop or has already been designated to lift an Excommunication – yes?

The penitent? Surely, she might not know the process because I am was not aware of the process.

catholicdoors.com/faq/qu70.htm

 

[runningdude]

In the United States, all priests in good standing may lift the excommunication associated with abortion.

Here is a recent post by Father Vincent supporting this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=617554

 

[beehumble]

I think hairs are being split.

My understanding is that if a bishop has given a priest the power to forgive abortions (and many have done so - one would have to check on this for their particular diocese - I do not know if it has been done by all bishops in the US), if a penitent shows up for confession and confesses abortion, then such a priest who has been given the permission from the bishop, can then and there forgive the penitent, and the excommunication is ‘lifted’. The ‘consultation’ is taking place de facto in the confessional, at that moment, along with the confession of the sin.

God wills to save us. If we come to Him Who resides in the person of a priest who has been given permission to forgive abortion, that priest can absolve the sinner, and the excommunication is lifted.

That is my understanding.

God bless you.

 

[Leegal]

First of all, remember that you can be in a state of grace even while excommunicated.

Second, the argument in the article seems to be that most priests don’t know that abortion causes a person to be automatically excommunicated. While in my very limited experience some priests are indeed woefully ignorant in areas like moral theology and Christology, they generally seem to know these sorts of rules of the Church, so I’m skeptical of that claim. This impression is based on a fairly small sampling of priests though.

Thank you. Now I am thoroughly confused though. How can one be excommunicated but be in the state of grace?

I too am skeptical that priests would not know this. The woman’s confusion originated because the student on the phone took it upon herself to tell her to “just go Saturday at 4:00 p.m.” Something did not seem right about that instruction so the woman was skeptical herself of listening to some H.S. or college student who is answering phones.

I’m not being facetious but to put it in the vernacular I would say this must have been covered in the Seminary 101.

Obviously, a complex question of the difference between being excommunicated due to mortal sin and being excommunicated due to having supported or actually had an abortion would be something that they would want to make the distinction.

Thank you and God Bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

I understand that if a woman has an abortion she cannot marry in the Church, cannot take part in the liturgy, cannot receive the Eucharist. She can attend Mass, but is prohibited from the receiving of sacraments – and that includes Confession too.

I understand that she is Excommunicated.

1. is it so that the Excommunication must be lifted FIRST, as even the sacrament of reconciliation cannot be performed until the Excommunication is addressed.
2. and that not all priests in the U.S. have the authoritity to lift an Excommunication so that the Sacrament of Reconciliation cannot take place until the priest has conferred with his Bishop or already has the authority…

only partially true
a woman who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated but only if she is over 18, a Catholic, and understands that penalty applies. All priests in the US have been given the faculty to lift that excommunication in confession, so any woman who has confessed and been absolved is in full communion with the Church.

this discussion is making an issue where none exists. cut the drama, if you know of a woman in this situation, be a Christian friend and recommend she speak to the nearest priest.

In fact, since abortion has become legal in so many places I don’t know of any country whose bishops have not given the automatic permission to lift the excommunication to their priests. and recall that it applies only of the woman knew of the penalty when she fell into that sin.

 

[runningdude]

The question is about the U.S. Some information suggests that the priest has the authority, through his Bishop to lift the excommunication. Some information suggests that not all priests in the U.S. can lift an excommunication and the priest may have to go to his Bishop with the issue first. Yes?

Thank you and God Bless.

All priests in the United States in good standing have the authority to lift the excommunication associated with Abortion. (Source: Ask and Apologist, November 18, 2011).

 

[Leegal]

I think hairs are being split.

My understanding is that if a bishop has given a priest the power to forgive abortions (and many have done so - one would have to check on this for their particular diocese - I do not know if it has been done by all bishops in the US), if a penitent shows up for confession and confesses abortion, then such a priest who has been given the permission from the bishop, can then and there forgive the penitent, and the excommunication is ‘lifted’. The ‘consultation’ is taking place de facto in the confessional, at that moment, along with the confession of the sin.

God wills to save us. If we come to Him Who resides in the person of a priest who has been given permission to forgive abortion, that priest can absolve the sinner, and the excommunication is lifted.

That is my understanding.

God bless you.

So, then had the woman just gone to any Satufday confession, as the student on the phone of one parish suggested, she might have chosen a priest who might not have been given the authority to lift an excommunication.

So, I was right in suggesting that she make an appointment with a priest who will receive her privately (not in the Saturday 45 minutes allotted before Mass) and that the topic of Excommunication is the first order of business. Also, not being facetious but the priest and the woman might have come upon the unexpected. The priest, having to tell the penitent that for whatever reason (maybe he’s a visting priest with no authority to lift an excommunication) could not hear the confession and the woman who discovers, unknowingly, that she cannot yet take confession without some other first step.

Thank you and God Bless you too.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Thank you. Now I am thoroughly confused though. How can one be excommunicated but be in the state of grace?

I too am skeptical that priests would not know this. The woman’s confusion originated because the student on the phone took it upon herself to tell her to “just go Saturday at 4:00 p.m.” Something did not seem right about that instruction so the woman was skeptical herself of listening to some H.S. or college student who is answering phones.

I’m not being facetious but to put it in the vernacular I would say this must have been covered in the Seminary 101.

Obviously, a complex question of the difference between being excommunicated due to mortal sin and being excommunicated due to having supported or actually had an abortion would be something that they would want to make the distinction.

Thank you and God Bless.

Excommunication legally prohibits someone from receiving the sacraments and from holding an ecclesiastical office. It does not say anything about the state of a person’s soul. The idea that by excommunication the Church actually cuts the person off from God is a myth. It’s entirely possible for someone to be both excommunicated and in a state of grace- for example someone who is wrongfully excommunicated, or who was excommunicated for something that was not a mortal sin, or who has experienced perfect contrition but has not yet had the excommunication lifted. Or of course someone who does not know they are excommunicated and has done all they honestly thought was needed to be reconciled with the Church.

Also remember that while mortal sin cuts one off from God and therefore from the Church in a sense, it is not itself an excommunication.

 

[A_G]

Anyone who has an abortion, participates in an abortion, or supports an abortion, is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

To lift the excommunication, the sinner must approach the local Bishop, and ask him to lift the excommunication. Now the Bishop can also appoint a priest to specifically deal with this absolution on his behalf, and lift the excommunication.

Now in the United States specifically (because every country is different), every bishop has been given the ok for the local priests to both lift excommunication and absolve the sinner of this sin.

Unfortunatley a reason for this, I believe, is because abortion cases in the U.S. have been so high.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Anyone who has an abortion, participates in an abortion, or supports an abortion, is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

To lift the excommunication, the sinner must approach the local Bishop, and ask him to lift the excommunication. Now the Bishop can also appoint a priest to specifically deal with this absolution on his behalf, and lift the excommunication.

Now in the United States specifically (because every country is different), every bishop has been given the ok for the local priests to both lift excommunication and absolve the sinner of this sin.

Unfortunatley a reason for this, I believe, is because abortion cases in the U.S. have been so high.

Also I would hate to imagine a case when a very hurt woman finally works up the courage to confess this sin, confesses it, and then the priest says sorry, I can’t help you, this sin is just that bad and you’ve excommunicated yourself. You’ll have to talk to the bishop or this particular priest, until then you are still excommunicated. That would not exactly be good pastoral practice in my estimation. Excommunication exists to help compel the person to rectify their position with the Church, not to hinder that healing.

 

[catharina]

So, then had the woman just gone to any Satufday confession, as the student on the phone of one parish suggested, she might have chosen a priest who might not have been given the authority to lift an excommunication.

So, I was right in suggesting that she make an appointment with a priest who will receive her privately (not in the Saturday 45 minutes allotted before Mass) and that the topic of Excommunication is the first order of business. Also, not being facetious but the priest and the woman might have come upon the unexpected. The priest, having to tell the penitent that for whatever reason (maybe he’s a visting priest with no authority to lift an excommunication) could not hear the confession and the woman who discovers, unknowingly, that she cannot yet take confession without some other first step.

Thank you and God Bless you too.

Read Post # 13, from puzzleannie.
It simplifies the issue. You are complicating the issue.