Exit Strategy

[gilliam]

Interesting article:

Even if we could create a comprehensive Exit Strategy and timeline, we could never make them public. As soon as we set an ironclad date for withdrawal of forces, we have communicated the limits of our endurance to our enemies. We’ve given them a date to mark on their calendar – hold out until this date, and you win.

*…*On July 21, 2005, a scant few weeks ago, Congress reiterated that strategy when it voted against early withdrawal from Iraq. Attached as an amendment to the Department of State appropriations bill, the resolution stated that the U.S. should not leave Iraq until national security and foreign policy goals relating to a free and stable Iraq have been achieved.

That’s pretty cut and dried. The house is painted when it’s painted. The fire is out when it’s out. The bathtub is clean when it’s clean. The job is finished when the objectives have been met. Anything else is either a blind guess, or a call to leave the job half complete.

military.com/Opinions/0,Edwards_081205,00.html

 

[rlg94086]

gilliam:

Interesting article:

Even if we could create a comprehensive Exit Strategy and timeline, we could never make them public. As soon as we set an ironclad date for withdrawal of forces, we have communicated the limits of our endurance to our enemies. We’ve given them a date to mark on their calendar – hold out until this date, and you win.

*…*On July 21, 2005, a scant few weeks ago, Congress reiterated that strategy when it voted against early withdrawal from Iraq. Attached as an amendment to the Department of State appropriations bill, the resolution stated that the U.S. should not leave Iraq until national security and foreign policy goals relating to a free and stable Iraq have been achieved.

That’s pretty cut and dried. The house is painted when it’s painted. The fire is out when it’s out. The bathtub is clean when it’s clean. The job is finished when the objectives have been met. Anything else is either a blind guess, or a call to leave the job half complete.

That’s why the left keeps pushing for a timeline - they know that one can not be given.

 

[Benedictus]

But when can we say “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq? What specific things do we look for?

 

[gilliam]

Benedictus:

But when can we say “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq? What specific things do we look for?

A free and independent Iraqi Republic that can stand on its own.

 

[Philip_P]

gilliam:

Even if we could create a comprehensive Exit Strategy and timeline, we could never make them public. As soon as we set an ironclad date for withdrawal of forces, we have communicated the limits of our endurance to our enemies. We’ve given them a date to mark on their calendar – hold out until this date, and you win.

You know, that might be half the problem right here. What is this, pre-emptive framing? Eventually we’re going to have to leave Iraq, and it’s good odds that whatever emerges out of the situation will be far, far less than the overly optimistic pre-war predictions. I suppose by repeating over and over again that our leaving (when it inevitably comes) is “cutting and running” and that it is the “limits of our endurance” the pro-war faction has a nice exucse all ready. “Oh, we would have succeed in Iraq, except that we had to leave prematurely.” The beauty of this, of course, is that it works no matter when we leave, be it tomorrow or in 2016.

Now less this be seen as an uncharitable attack upon those who support the war out of the best of intentions, let me clarify that I think it’s the Republican leadership that’s guilty of this cynical framing. Those of you who are adamantly opposed to the withdrawal, though, should ask yourselves if you’re being taken for a ride. How long, exactly, are we supposed to keep troops there?

A hasty, disorganized retreat *would *be a bad idea. That’s why the country would be better served by having a serious conversaton about how to withdraw, rather than using provoking and often apocalyptic language to foreclose any discussion of withdrawal whatsoever. Don’t let the desire for an excuse to blame the anti-war faction distract from the serious need to have an effective exit strategy ready.

 

[gilliam]

Philip P:

A hasty, disorganized retreat *would *be a bad idea. That’s why the country would be better served by having a serious conversaton about how to withdraw, rather than using provoking and often apocalyptic language to foreclose any discussion of withdrawal whatsoever. Don’t let the desire for an excuse to blame the anti-war faction distract from the serious need to have an effective exit strategy ready.

If I were part of the enemy’s camp I would root you on for saying this. Anything that saps the will of the coalition to fight I would advocate. Just give me a timeline and I will wait you out. After all in a terrorist war like this one, the last one standing wins. Leave now or leave later, it doesn’t matter to me, just leave and I win.

 

[Benedictus]

gilliam:

A free and independent Iraqi Republic that can stand on its own.

Well, Iraq is already free and independent. Can it stand on its own? How do we define standing on its own?

 

[gilliam]

I like history so, I was wondering:

What was Patton’s exit strategy?

What was Saladin’s exit strategy?

What was Eisenhower’s exit strategy?

What? You mean they didn’t have one? Nuts! Obviously, they were not enlightened by the wisdom of the Left.

 

[gilliam]

Benedictus:

Well, Iraq is already free and independent. Can it stand on its own? How do we define standing on its own?

We leave and the Iraqis can take care of the Baathists and al-Qaeda within their boarders.

 

[Philip_P]

gilliam:

If I were part of the enemy’s camp I would root you on for saying this. Anything that saps the will of the coalition to fight I would advocate.

And if I I were in the enemy’s camp, I’d be thanking Allah for sending me such stupid opponents as the Soviet Union and the United States, who are willing bog themselves down in protracted, slow-bleeding campaigns that damage their prestige while raising mine. Of course, I’m not in the enemy’s camp, so our situation horrifies rather than elates me.

But enough of such silliness. You love your country no less than I do, and I am no less replused by terrorists than you are. Let’s avoid these stupid snipes at each others patriotism and keep the discussion focused on the issues, not on each others perceived motives or loyalty.

Just give me a timeline and I will wait you out. After all in a terrorist war like this one, the last one standing wins. Leave now or leave later, it doesn’t matter to me, just leave and I win.

So, basically you’re saying that we never leave, ever? You know that’s not possible. When the time comes for us to leave, wouldn’t it be better to have a real withdrawal strategy in place instead of a list of excuses blaming domestic political opponents?

 

[Benedictus]

gilliam:

What was Patton’s exit strategy?

What was Saladin’s exit strategy?

What was Eisenhower’s exit strategy?

What? You mean they didn’t have one? Nuts! Obviously, they were not enlightened by the wisdom of the Left.

They weren’t fighting guerillas. A better analagy would be: what was LBJ’s exit strategy? In any case, Patton’s and Ike’s exit strategy was clear: force Germany to surrender. Saladin’s was similar.

The most disturbing thing is that you assume that everyone who doesn’t support the war is a Leftist. In fact, real conservatives opposed the invasion.

 

[ShroudMan]

I dont buy the bunk that an exit strategy will embolden the terrorists…compared to what??? We DONT have one and look how emboldened they are!

I see an exit strategy as putting the fear of ALLAH in those Iraqis who keep saying they want freedom… yeah…well now you have a DEADLINE pal! Get it together… lets see how serious you people are NOW… THATS what I think can be positive about an exit strategy…force these people to get serious knowing a deadline exists… a good manager ALWAYS gives a deadline… without one, what does human nature do? It Displays LAZINESS… thats what… and thats what we are seeing here… they dont want us there, but yet they also want someone to fight their battles for them… while at the same time stating they hate us… they are a weak people…a conflicted people who will sell out for money or to anyone who promises to care for them… a backward people who only understand force and have no conviction to stand up for themselves (save for a few) they want their cake and eat it to… and our so called educated western minds are too stupid to figure out you cant push democracy onto a people whose twisted view of religion is so ingrained that they have thunk and lived like this for 3000 years

Its easier going into a jungle and convincing cannibal headhunters they shouldnt eat their own and then coverting them to Christianity…

But personally, I view this as a war of imperialism to control the middel east so I really dont think Bush wants an exit strategy…hes more interested in strategies for a further push into other countries.

 

[gilliam]

Islam is only 1400 years old. Before Islam, the Arabs were basically nomads.

 

[aimee]

ShroudMan:

I dont buy the bunk that an exit strategy will embolden the terrorists…compared to what??? We DONT have one and look how emboldened they are!

I see an exit strategy as putting the fear of ALLAH in those Iraqis who keep saying they want freedom… yeah…well now you have a DEADLINE pal! Get it together… lets see how serious you people are NOW… THATS what I think can be positive about an exit strategy…force these people to get serious knowing a deadline exists… a good manager ALWAYS gives a deadline… without one, what does human nature do? It Displays LAZINESS… thats what… and thats what we are seeing here… they dont want us there, but yet they also want someone to fight their battles for them… while at the same time stating they hate us… they are a weak people…a conflicted people who will sell out for money or to anyone who promises to care for them… a backward people who only understand force and have no conviction to stand up for themselves (save for a few) they want their cake and eat it to… and our so called educated western minds are too stupid to figure out you cant push democracy onto a people who have thunk and lived like this for 3000 years

But personally, I view this as a war of imperialism to control the middel east so I really dont think Bush wants an exit strategy…hes more interested in strategies for a further push into other countries.

vous ont eu trop de café…
De quel pays êtes-vous ? not Américain,are you?

 

[Lance]

Philip P:

You know, that might be half the problem right here. What is this, pre-emptive framing? Eventually we’re going to have to leave Iraq, ~~~~
.

Why? We haven’t left Germany and WW II was over in 1945.

 

[Darrel]

they are a weak people…a conflicted people who will sell out for money or to anyone who promises to care for them… a backward people who only understand force and have no conviction to stand up for themselves (save for a few) they want their cake and eat it to… and our so called educated western minds are too stupid to figure out you cant push democracy onto a people whose twisted view of religion is so ingrained that they have thunk and lived like this for 3000 years

ShroudMan,

They are human beings with minds of there own. I think we have something like 50,000 of them trained and fighting. These words are degrading to there dignity as soldiers and human beings. I cant wait to see what you say the day Iraq can stand alone and it’s all over. I can hear it now. "Yeah it worked but at what price? “We should have let Sadam keep throwing people in the wood chipper in an unstable Middle East!!!”. "But noooooo the Imperalist GW had to go and liberate Iraq for OIL!!!. It seems like your deepest hope is that the US military skulks out of Iraq saying we lost again it was another Vietnam. Theres only one problem with that ShroudMan… were gonna win.

-D

 

[gilliam]

Darrel:

ShroudMan,

They are human beings with minds of there own. I think we have something like 50,000 of them trained and fighting.

We have about 160,000 trained and fighting along side coalition troops. The reason most cannot stand alone right now is not that they cannot fight, they can, it is because their supply and maintenance brigades are not up and running. Once that happens, at the end of the year, expect a rapid deployment of stand alone, by then battle hardened, Iraqi troops.

 

[Lance]

gilliam:

We have about 160,000 trained and fighting along side coalition troops. The reason most cannot stand alone right now is not that they cannot fight, they can, it is because their supply and maintenance brigades are not up and running. Once that happens, at the end of the year, expect a rapid deployment of stand alone, by then battle hardened, Iraqi troops.

You bring up a good point. Most people don’t know that for every man in the front lines you need 3 or 4 men in supply, maintenance, medical and other support. The 2 men I know who are in Iraq tell me that they are amazed at how well the Iraqis can fight and how loyal they are to their officers.

 

[gilliam]

From another soldier in Iraq:

No Exit Strategy, Please

Joe Katzman, writing at Winds of Change, links to an excellent article by Chief Petty Officer (CPO) Jeff Edwards (Retired), that stands as a must-read for all those who even use the words, “exit strategy.”

Edwards notes the rapid introduction of the word “quagmire” from the Vietnam era lexicon almost immediately at the start of military action in March 2003. Not long after, there were the hardly unexpected calls for an “exit strategy.”

…

And even assuming perfect omnipotence to create one, why would we ever communicate such a plan to our enemies? To do so would cause calamity, and hand our enemies the very key to our defeat.

…

However naive or misbegotten the desire, it is nonetheless understandable that even supporters of this war grow frustrated with the seeming slow pace of progress towards ending it. No one wants an unnecessary war. But war against unrelenting, unforgiving evil is a war of self defense.

We must beware – and make every effort to educate the public – that ending a war is a really bad idea if by ending it we surrender to forces of evil, and forces that will take our surrender, not as the final act of war, but the beginning of a wholly new and savage campaign to exploit our weakness and lack of resolve.

What do we need now in Iraq? Edwards has the answer:We need a plan of action, not an Exit Strategy. We need a strategy for achieving the objective. Luckily, we’ve got one. We’ve had it since March 19, 2003. Assist the Iraqi people in forming stable and secure self-government.Joe Katzman confronts those opposed to the war in Iraq, those calling for an exit strategy, those clamoring for us to withdraw, to admit defeat. He challenges all these to consider their motivations, their intent, their desired end state. For Katzman, and for all of us who have a primary goal of winning the war, we’re left with not much more than, “You’re either with us, or against us.” I recall President Bush declaring a similar truth in confronting state sponsors of terrorism. Because the stakes really are that high, the enemy is really that ruthless, and the cost of defeat really is too great a cost to bear.

Katzman boils it down to its essence:Nothing wrong with being a critic in a time of military conflict. The question is, are you offering alternative plans of action and critique, combined with a clear and shared commitment to victory as the goal? Are you asking for a plan of action and the terms of victory? Is victory your starting point, and your first demand?

Or are you simply offering defeatism by focusing on a foolish “exit strategy” whose only effect will be to encourage the nation’s enemies and up the odds that your country will lose?
Some would look at the very public spectacle of Mother Sheehan and say, “This is what each death can teach us.” I would like to suggest something else the dead can teach us.

…
Would that we muster that resolve. For we must.

read the rest:

dadmanly.blogspot.com/2005/08/no-exit-strategy-please.html

 

[ShroudMan]

aimee:

vous ont eu trop de café…
De quel pays êtes-vous ? not Américain,are you?

Yes I am American…are YOU?

Your profile says Atlanta…so whats with the prententious French lingo …is that suppose to make you sound more intelligent? If so… your assumption I am not American proves your hoity toity French lingo has failed you.