Exorcise America?

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inocente said:
Interesting you keep questioning the value of evidence when the exorcists themselves are hoping for evidence of “positive repercussions”. But I think I’ll wait patiently for you to first answer my questions before I answer yours. Here they are again:

Where in the bible does Jesus or any apostle cast out demons from a large number of people who were miles away at the time?

If this kind of mass exorcism works (has “positive repercussions”), why hasn’t the Church been doing it full-time across the globe for the last two thousand years?

When these demons are expelled, where do they flee to? Do they flee from Mexico to the rest of the world, taking a wave of crime elsewhere? Until other exorcists expel the demons from their own countries and the demons flee back to Mexico? Is this the start of an exorcism arms race?
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You could ask all these same questions of an individual exorcism, which now makes clear that you doubt altogether the Christ-given power of exorcism. Do you doubt that individual exorcism was given as a power to the Church? You’ll have a lot of splainin’ to do for various passages in scripture that affirm exorcism as an authentic way to combat the devil. And there is no injunction anywhere in scripture against exorcising whole nations, if the devil has possessed them entirely.

You seem to be a stickler for biblical authority, but then when the authority is presented to you, you have a way of dodging it in favor of “empirical” evidence and silly questions like, where does the devil go when he is exorcised? Of course he will go elsewhere, either back to hell or into another nation where there is no power of collective or individual exorcism even exercised.

The question about an exorcism arms race is childish and sarcastic.

Why hasn’t the Church been doing it full time across the globe for the last two thousand years?

It has. Read the Catholic ritual for baptism. Every baptized child or adult is asked to reject the devil and all his works. This is to keep the devil at a distance. Thousands of miles of distance if possible. If not possible (because the devil is persistent) at least far enough away to do the least harm.

But when the devil is in a position to do the most harm, exorcism itself is the most effective way to combat him. And if he is effectively combating and possessing a whole nation, why not exorcise the whole nation? If the Church decides that is the method to use, who are you to criticize the Church? Are you the Church? The Church has the power to govern itself in ways beyond those mentioned specifically in Scripture.

Matthew 18:18

“I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven.”
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Matthew 18:18

“I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven.”
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Jesus was talking to the future governors of his Church, not to inocente. 😉
 
Charlemagne_III said:
You could ask all these same questions of an individual exorcism, which now makes clear that you doubt altogether the Christ-given power of exorcism. Do you doubt that individual exorcism was given as a power to the Church? You’ll have a lot of splainin’ to do for various passages in scripture that affirm exorcism as an authentic way to combat the devil. And there is no injunction anywhere in scripture against exorcising whole nations, if the devil has possessed them entirely.

You seem to be a stickler for biblical authority, but then when the authority is presented to you, you have a way of dodging it in favor of “empirical” evidence and silly questions like, where does the devil go when he is exorcised? Of course he will go elsewhere, either back to hell or into another nation where there is no power of collective or individual exorcism even exercised.

The question about an exorcism arms race is childish and sarcastic.

Why hasn’t the Church been doing it full time across the globe for the last two thousand years?

It has. Read the Catholic ritual for baptism. Every baptized child or adult is asked to reject the devil and all his works. This is to keep the devil at a distance. Thousands of miles of distance if possible. If not possible (because the devil is persistent) at least far enough away to do the least harm.

But when the devil is in a position to do the most harm, exorcism itself is the most effective way to combat him. And if he is effectively combating and possessing a whole nation, why not exorcise the whole nation? If the Church decides that is the method to use, who are you to criticize the Church? Are you the Church? The Church has the power to govern itself in ways beyond those mentioned specifically in Scripture.

Matthew 18:18

“I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven.”
Click to expand...
There’s a lot of huffing and puffing there, surely more huffing and puffing than is decent in one post, including a wild allegation about my beliefs which you’ve concocted out of thin air. And now you add baptism to the mix, which invites a further question: if baptism keeps demons at bay, then nations where most are not baptized would have more problems with demons, and higher crime rates as a result. How come they don’t?

But you’ve not answered my other questions yet so I’ll not hold my breath :D. As for your huff ‘n’ puff on the Church, I don’t remember making any criticism, I just asked questions. In any case, was it really the Church’s initiative? I saw no mention of the Vatican or the Pope. But if you’re correct, how come the Church hasn’t been exorcising nations everyday all around the world?

And the arms race question is serious. If demons can be expelled from a nation state then that would be a potent weapon, because it could be used to push demons into enemy nations.

The thread is not exactly buzzing with posts, it seems I’m not the only one with liitle enthusiasm for the OP. Your huff ‘n’ puff indicates you’re having serious problems coming up with answers so I’ll do the decent thing and let you off the hook.
 
inocente said:
There’s a lot of huffing and puffing there, surely more huffing and puffing than is decent in one post, including a wild allegation about my beliefs which you’ve concocted out of thin air. And now you add baptism to the mix, which invites a further question: if baptism keeps demons at bay, then nations where most are not baptized would have more problems with demons, and higher crime rates as a result. How come they don’t?

But you’ve not answered my other questions yet so I’ll not hold my breath :D. As for your huff ‘n’ puff on the Church, I don’t remember making any criticism, I just asked questions. In any case, was it really the Church’s initiative? I saw no mention of the Vatican or the Pope. But if you’re correct, how come the Church hasn’t been exorcising nations everyday all around the world?

And the arms race question is serious. If demons can be expelled from a nation state then that would be a potent weapon, because it could be used to push demons into enemy nations.

The thread is not exactly buzzing with posts, it seems I’m not the only one with liitle enthusiasm for the OP. Your huff ‘n’ puff indicates you’re having serious problems coming up with answers so I’ll do the decent thing and let you off the hook.
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This entire post is very Christian of you, I’m sure! 🤷

It will not escaper your attention that the Supreme court today affirmed and advanced the insane cause of same-sex marriage.

Perhaps it’s time to exorcise the Supreme Court.

I’d be for that. I don’t think the pope will tolerate that as he tolerates the exorcism of Mexico.

God will judge, in any case, the Catholic Justices who voted for same-sex marriage, as he has no doubt judged the single Catholic Justice who voted for Roe v. Wade.

Today the United States joined Mexico as the modern equivalents of Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
This entire post is very Christian of you, I’m sure! 🤷

It will not escaper your attention that the Supreme court today affirmed and advanced the insane cause of same-sex marriage.

Perhaps it’s time to exorcise the Supreme Court.

I’d be for that. I don’t think the pope will tolerate that as he tolerates the exorcism of Mexico.

God will judge, in any case, the Catholic Justices who voted for same-sex marriage, as he has no doubt judged the single Catholic Justice who voted for Roe v. Wade.

Today the United States joined Mexico as the modern equivalents of Sodom and Gomorrah.
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😃 And Spain, don’t forget Spain. And Ireland, etc.

Thinking about it, if exorcism of Mexico works then no Mexican court could convict any criminal, since he could just argue that he was possessed, so it wasn’t his fault. And all criminals would go to heaven, since their sins were not their fault, as demon possession overrode their free will.
PS: Thanks for letting me know the Supreme Court decision. I just looked at the news.

‘Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the plaintiffs asked “for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.”’

‘President Barack Obama said the ruling was a “victory for America”. "When all Americans are treated as equal, we are all more free " he said.’

Agreed. I will open a bottle of wine to toast you guys. Well done America. One of the banners outside the court read “Not just gay … ecstatic”

👍
 
thinkandmull said:
Why hasn’t the Church always had a group of exorcists exorcizing the world every day?

But the Mass is more powerful! Why isn’t the mass used as an exorcism?
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There are two kinds of exorcism: that at baptism, and that after baptism to combat daemons or fallen angels who retain their natural power.

Just prior to baptism, the exorcism is against the original and personal sins (from age of reason), which is to be subject to the power of the devil, whose works or pomps they are called upon to renounce, and from whose dominion the grace of baptism will deliver them.

Exorcism is a sacramental not a sacrament.

Catechism of the Catholic Church1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179
 
I don’t think empirical evidence is possible. Some people say Catholics are just like everyone else when it comes to sin, and yet they claim to have the sacraments. However, maybe the devil is allowed to strike harder at those receiving the sacraments. Who is to say what goes on in the spiritual world. Remember Job? There have actually been studies on the efficacy of prayer for the sick. But perhaps God did not allow the effects to happen when people are doing studies on it. This is all beyond the scope of the microscope
 
The Byzantine Catholic baptism includes an exorcism. One Byzantine version includes:
Do you even now, in saving this creature of yours from the servitude of the adversary, receive him into your kingdom; open the eyes of his mind, so that he may be illumined with the light of the gospel of your kingdom; grant an angel of light to be a companion to his life, so that he may free him from all harms to the soul, from evil incursions, from demons, from the noonday spirit of the devil, from phantasms and illusions. Drive away from him all spirits and the operation of error that hides and remains in his heart, the spirit of deception, the spirit of idolatry, avarice, and lying, and of all impurity that is accomplished at the bidding of the calumniator, and make them sheep in the flock of your Christ.
 
inocente said:
:

Agreed. I will open a bottle of wine to toast you guys. Well done America. One of the banners outside the court read “Not just gay … ecstatic”

👍
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inocente the Baptist takes his morality from Barack Obama rather than St. Paul.

It’s official. He celebrates the arrival of the post-Christian era. 🤷
 
thinkandmull said:
Why hasn’t the Church always had a group of exorcists exorcizing the world every day?

But the Mass is more powerful! Why isn’t the mass used as an exorcism?
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The mass is in part a re-enactment of what happened at the Last Supper. Don’t you recall Satan entering Judas Isacariot at the Last Supper?

Someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
Here is this sinner who is known for stealing who is eating at the Last Supper. He partakes. Then he proceeds to turn in his innocent friend, teacher, and leader to be crucified. Three days later his friend, teacher, and leader rises from the dead via the power of God.

Aahhh!!! Yes. The Paschal Mystery. What is mysterious about it?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
inocente the Baptist takes his morality from Barack Obama rather than St. Paul.

It’s official. He celebrates the arrival of the post-Christian era. 🤷
Click to expand...
😃

How good and pleasant it is
when God’s people live together in unity!
Ps 133
 
The world is in such a depressing state right now. I really wish that miraculous sign as described in Fatima would happen any day now. People (including myself) need an awakening, or an illumination of conscience, if you will. Spiritual rejuvenation.
 
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