Exorcists?

[Rebecca_BE]

In his book and in his interviews, he said he performed 30,000 exorcisms in a nine year period, not just the rite,

If he meant something else, the it’s his responsibility to get it correct when putting it into a book.

He does say in his book that he has done that many; but if you read the book he also states that many (or most) of his cases require repeated exorcisms. Look at them like multiple “treatments.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

He does say in his book that he has done that many; but if you read the book he also states that many (or most) of his cases require repeated exorcisms. Look at them like multiple “treatments.”

Which makes the 30,000 claim even less probable.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

In his book and in his interviews, he said he performed 30,000 exorcisms in a nine year period, not just the rite,

If he meant something else, the it’s his responsibility to get it correct when putting it into a book.

There are other problems which the article points out.

When Fr Amorth said that Yoga opens a person to demonic possession, this would’ve been a shock to the billions of people who practice Yoga and have not been demonically possessed but if anything, grew closer to God.

Imagine tell all the Hindus of the world that they’re on the edge of demonic possession practicing their religion ?

Jim

I didn’t comment on yoga, only the number of exorcisms. He performed the “rite of exorcism” 30,000 times. Exorcism, grand or small is a rite or ceremony that is performed. It is an exclusive catholic rite, which is why only Catholics can be called exorcists. It’s not a magic bullet, it sometimes takes many doses.

Exorcism - the ceremony or the formula used in exorcising: An elaborate exorcism was pronounced over the sick man. (dictionary.com)

The word just means the ceremony used in the process.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I didn’t comment on yoga, only the number of exorcisms. He performed the “rite of exorcism” 30,000 times. Exorcism, grand or small is a rite or ceremony that is performed. It is an exclusive catholic rite, which is why only Catholics can be called exorcists. It’s not a magic bullet, it sometimes takes many doses.

The word just means the ceremony used in the process.

Grand or small, 30,000 in nine years is improbable, and he makes no distinction in his book as to the level.

But believe as you will.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

Grand or small, 30,000 in nine years is improbable, and he makes no distinction in his book as to the level.

But believe as you will.

Jim

Why is this improbable? A rite is a rite, if it is used once that counts as 1. The level doesn’t effect the count.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why is this improbable? A rite is a rite, if it is used once that is 1.

Because it’s not all he did in his career as a Catholic priest.

But don’t let my skepticism sway your belief.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

Because it’s not all he did in his career as a Catholic priest.

But don’t let my skepticism sway your belief.

Jim

[
Exorcism

I cast you out, unclean spirit, along with every Satanic power of the enemy, every spectre from hell, and all your fell companions; in the name of our Lord Jesus +Christ. Begone and stay far from this creature of God.+ For it is He who commands you, He who flung you headlong from the heights of heaven into the depths of hell. It is He who commands you, He who once stilled the sea and the wind and the storm. Hearken, therefore, and tremble in fear, Satan, you enemy of the faith, you foe of the human race, you begetter of death, you robber of life, you corrupter of justice, you root of all evil and vice; seducer of men, betrayer of the nations, instigator of envy, font of avarice, fomentor of discord, author of pain and sorrow. Why, then, do you stand and resist, knowing as you must that Christ the Lord brings your plans to nothing? Fear Him, who in Isaac was offered in sacrifice, in Joseph sold into bondage, slain as the paschal lamb, crucified as man, yet triumphed over the powers of hell. (The three signs of the cross which follow are traced on the brow of the possessed person). Begone, then, in the name of the Father, + and of the Son, + and of the Holy + Spirit. Give place to the Holy Spirit by this sign of the holy + cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.

All: Amen.

P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.

P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray.

God, Creator and defender of the human race, who made man in your own image, look down in pity on this your servant, N., now in the toils of the unclean spirit, now caught up in the fearsome threats of man's ancient enemy, sworn foe of our race, who befuddles and stupefies the human mind, throws it into terror, overwhelms it with fear and panic. Repel, 0 Lord, the devil's power, break asunder his snares and traps, put the unholy tempter to flight. By the sign + (on the brow) of your name, let your servant be protected in mind and body. (The three crosses which follow are traced on the breast of the possessed person). Keep watch over the inmost recesses of his (her) + heart; rule over his (her) + emotions; strengthen his (her) + will. Let vanish from his (her) soul the temptings of the mighty adversary. Graciously grant, 0 Lord, as we call on your holy name, that the evil spirit, who hitherto terrorized over us, may himself retreat in terror and defeat, so that this servant of yours may sincerely and steadfastly render you the service which is your due; through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen. ](http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english/p01975b.htm)

That counts as 1. I have a lot less difficulty imagining 9 a day, especially when multiple rites may be performed over the same person. Maybe only 3 people visited a day with 3 rites per person.

I see nothing unusual about the statement when put into context of what an exorcism actually is. At the very least it’s not out of the scope of possibility.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

I think it all boils down to the number of exorcisms that he says he has performed. However, each demon cast out is an exorcism and some are possessed by numerous demons. I have spoken with a Priest from Ghana. He did exorcisms but stopped as he got older, due to he physical and mental strain that is involved. He told me that one person in Ghana was possessed by 77 demons, which is the largest number that he personally knows of.

Here is an interview with an exorcist Priest. Rather than being frightening, it provides great hope, especially when you consider the power that the blessed virgin’s name has against demons.

regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/articulo.phtml?id=14318&se=364&ca=118&te=782

This article is a little more disturbing, but gives some case histories of cases of actual possession. It can help convince one never to dabble in the occult.

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/tomhoopes/darkbackward.asp

The second stoey is especially eery to me because Ive experienced.and still experience some of what is talked about.

Intrusive thoughts always in.my room as I try to fall asleep. An extremely depressive presence, which used to cause me severe insomnia. Even tho I dont have insomia anymore the depressive thoughts are always waiting.

Obession. I have reoccuring problems with lust. Years ago i felt overwhelmed by it and gave into it and even began feeling driven and controlled by it. It was on my mind all the timw. I still struggle with that now, even though I try to fight it, but once I fall into it once, I start giving into it more once again. After Confession I try to avoid it but it doesnt work for long. I wonder if I gave an open invitation when I completely gave ino these sins years ago and if the devil is somehow still consistently present with me because of it?

What does a person do? Basics like Confession and praying? I have beeb so distractes from praying lately and now I cant even make it from Saturday Confession to Sunday Communion as I have been falling harder and harder lately.

 

[Deus_tecum]

The second stoey is especially eery to me because Ive experienced.and still experience some of what is talked about.

Intrusive thoughts always in.my room as I try to fall asleep. An extremely depressive presence, which used to cause me severe insomnia. Even tho I dont have insomia anymore the depressive thoughts are always waiting.

Obession. I have reoccuring problems with lust. Years ago i felt overwhelmed by it and gave into it and even began feeling driven and controlled by it. It was on my mind all the timw. I still struggle with that now, even though I try to fight it, but once I fall into it once, I start giving into it more once again. After Confession I try to avoid it but it doesnt work for long. I wonder if I gave an open invitation when I completely gave ino these sins years ago and if the devil is somehow still consistently present with me because of it?

What does a person do? Basics like Confession and praying? I have beeb so distractes from praying lately and now I cant even make it from Saturday Confession to Sunday Communion as I have been falling harder and harder lately.

Start learning Catholic meditation techniques. They train you to be detached from your thoughts. PM for more info if interested.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That counts as 1. I have a lot less difficulty imagining 9 a day, especially when multiple rites may be performed over the same person. Maybe only 3 people visited a day with 3 rites per person.

I see nothing unusual about the statement when put into context of what an exorcism actually is. At the very least it’s not out of the scope of possibility.

Saying the prayer doesn’t constitute performing an exorcism on a person who is demonically possessed.

Jim

 

[Pitcharan]

But Job was not demonically possessed. He still has his free will all through his affliction.

Demonic possession is the surrender of one’s free will, to the demon. The demon can not just take it. Instead, the demon works on the individual in all sorts of ways, often working on the ideology or emotional attachments the person has, providing the individual with answers he wants to hear.

Once the individual is convinced they’re receiving truth or enlightenment from the demon, the demon then begins to work on the individual’s will, getting him to surrender it. Once the person begins to surrender, the demon then takes control of the person. The proportion of the will the individual surrenders is the level of demonic possession that takes place.

Again, I recommend Malachi Martin’s book, “Hostage to the Devil.” He goes into the details of demonic possession, and he was an expert on exorcism in Rome, and trained exorcist priest from all over the world.

Jim

Your above post suggests that it is NOT God who permits possession but the individual who surrenders his/her will to Satan. Then why complain that God doesn’t care? I think He is perfectly fair in giving everyone the freedom to choose along with the longest rope of chances to foretaste consequences of either choice and change course before it is too late.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Your above post suggests that it is NOT God who permits possession but the individual who surrenders his/her will to Satan. Then why complain that God doesn’t care? I think He is perfectly fair in giving everyone the freedom to choose along with the longest rope of chances to foretaste consequences of either choice and change course before it is too late.

Where did I say God doesn’t care and who complained ?

Our free will is God’s greatest gift to us. Giving it over to a demon or cult-guru or anyone other than God, is the problem.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

Saying the prayer doesn’t constitute performing an exorcism on a person who is demonically possessed.

Jim

Explain.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Explain.

Many priest say the prayer of exorcism in daily prayers. It doesn’t mean they’ve performed an exorcism on a demonically possessed person and none could claim to know how exorcisms of demonically possessed people actually took place as a result.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

Many priest say the prayer of exorcism in daily prayers. It doesn’t mean they’ve performed an exorcism on a demonically possessed person and none could claim to know how exorcisms of demonically possessed people actually took place as a result.

Jim

We are not talking about many priests, we are talking about the chief exorcist of Rome, Fr. Amorth.

 

[Deus_tecum]

I’m reading a book about Fr. Amorth (translated autobiography), and Fr. Groeschel wrote one of the forwards. He says, “This book needs to be read with care, but with an open mind.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

We are not talking about many priests, we are talking about the chief exorcist of Rome, Fr. Amorth.

But in respect to saying exorcism prayer, Fr Amorth and other priests are no different.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Here’s another article and note Fr Grocshel’s comments about writing the forward as previously referred to.

Amorth is the Chief Exorcist for the Diocese of Rome. He worked for several years under the tutelage of Fr. Candido Amantini (d. 1992), a priest with 30 years of exorcism experience. Hence, one approaches Amorth’s book, which has already gone through several printings in its Italian original, with high expectations. Amorth makes, however, the astounding claim to have personally performed 30,000* exorcisms over nine years (p. 169), a claim that surpasses the credulity of even the most favorably-disposed reader. This particular claim appears late in the book, but a careful reader will encounter many other problems throughout the work.

I begin by noting that Fr. Benedict Groeschel wrote one of the most tepid forewords to a book I have ever seen. “At first I declined,” he noted, and then he continued, “I have difficulties with Fr. Amorth’s approach. He writes of this intriguing subject in ways quite foreign to the ideas of the English-speaking world…he uses rhetoric foreign to most of us and even theological concepts alien to our way of thinking…” Groeschel’s concerns are justified, and the cultural oddities are many. See, for example, Amorth’s comments on gypsies, mentioned only because “they are everywhere in Europe”, and whom he lumps together with “card readers and scoundrels” (p. 161), or his brief but confused discussion of the stereotypically Italian “evil eye” (p. 132). But bothersome as such details are, the problems with this book are deeper.

Amorth’s book will not fare well under scholarly, or even under commonly thoughtful, analysis. There are, for starters, no footnotes, no bibliography, and no index. Save, then, for a very small number of in-text references, there is no way to check most of Amorth’s multitudinous assertions, even many that he claims are “well-documented”. And as for the personal, real-life life episodes described by Amorth, supposedly a chief contribution of this work, they are, at least insofar as what is actually presented, frequently unconvincing. Consider one of three examples of a “curse” narrated by Amorth (pp. 130-131): A father cursed his son at birth and continued to curse him as long as the son lived at home. The son, says Amorth, “suffered from every conceivable misfortune” including—the exorcist’s hyperbole nothwithstanding—poor health, unemployment, marriage difficulties, and health problems with his own children. But how does any of this prove the existence of a “curse”? These sad facts seem readily explainable as the common manifestations of an emotionally battered child reared by an utterly dysfunctional father. With dads like that, who needs devils?

canonlaw.info/a_amorth.htm

Note, I’m not trying to convince people that demonic possession doesn’t exist, for it does. It’s just that Fr Amorth’s accounts don’t align with other exorcists accounts on the process of demonic possession and in many cases, he scares people into believing they are helpless against demonic possession, even when turning to Jesus for help.

Jim

 

[Semangelof]

But in respect to saying exorcism prayer, Fr Amorth and other priests are no different.

Jim

You and I and other priests cannot perform a valid exorcism rite unless the bishop gives permission. Only a priest, assigned by the bishop is allowed to perform the exorcism ritual.

Fr Amorth is the chief exorcist of Rome, I see every reason for him to perform the duties of his office, and no reason to believe his exorcisms invalid because of “some other priests”.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that what Fr. Amorth calls exorcisms are not exorcisms?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You and I and other priests cannot perform a valid exorcism rite unless the bishop gives permission. Only a priest, assigned by the bishop is allowed to perform the exorcism ritual.

Fr Amorth is the chief exorcist of Rome, I see every reason for him to perform the duties of his office, and no reason to believe his exorcisms invalid because of “some other priests”.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that what Fr. Amorth calls exorcisms are not exorcisms?

A priest can not perform an exorcism on a person who is demonically possessed, without permission of the Bishop.

But praying the exorcism prayer is allowed and done by many priests.

I’m only going by what was written by experts who reviewed Fr Amorth’s book.

I’m not an expert in exorcism and don’t claim to be.

But what I know from other experts, Fr Amorth’s claims are far fetched in some cases, Harry Potter, Yoga and other issues, see the article in my previous post.

Jim