Experts worry Vatican may slight Jews in Latin mass

[Dale_M]

The problem is that the traditional texts include passages that say the Jews live in ‘blindness’ and ‘darkness’ and pray ‘that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ.’

The old liturgy, known as the Tridentine mass, also has none of the Vatican Council thinking that reversed long-standing anti-Jewish views in the Church and recast the Jews as what Pope John Paul liked to call the ‘elder brothers’ of Christians.

Top Vatican officials have discussed the objections, a Church source in Rome said, but it was not clear whether the disputed prayers used in Good Friday services would be dropped or other changes added to show more respect for the Jews.

signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070423-0537-vatican-jews-.html

 

[JLSacred]

I have heard about this old verbage. What do you think, do Jews have a veil over their hearts? Is this true and now we are bowing to political pressure from them, or is the new way of thinking incorrect? I wonder, sometimes, about the Jewish people and where they stand in the sight of our Lord.

 

[Chickamauga]

The article is splitting hairs and attempting to raise false alarms.

From the article:

The National Catholic Reporter, a well-informed weekly based in Kansas City…

Oh, please. The National Catholic Distorter is well-known platform for heterodox dissenters.

 

[frommi]

John Allen is a pretty reputable source…he does a lot of coverage for the NCR and CNN about all issues ‘vatican’…

When you read the article, there is some truth to the worry that by using old translations thought to be long replaced it is much more than ‘splitting hairs’

Praying that the veil over a Jew’s heart be lifted on Good Friday is a lot different from praying for the first to hear the word of God as we do in the current translation.

It’s a ‘minor’ issue in a sense…one that could be easily corrected or attended to…the question is whether or not anyone will attend to it.

 

[Chickamauga]

What does John Allen have to do with this? He didn’t write the subject article and isn’t even quoted in it. And his working for NCReporter hasn’t lessened their dissenting stance any. CatholicCulture.org gives them a Church fidelity rating of DANGER! catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=60

The subject article frets over a couple of latin sentences used once a year. That sure is splitting hairs. Why didn’t they interview Jews who have converted to Catholicism to get their opinion? David Moss, Rosalind Moss, Marty Barrack and Roy Schoeman immediatly come to my mind. Oh, wait. These are all orthodox Hebrew Catholics who will defend the church… the media certainly doesn’t want to talk to them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As Catholics, we pray that all who do not acknowledge Christ have the veil lifted from their hearts. We feel that all who do not acknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior are living in blindness and darkness, even if they don’t ‘feel’ that they do.

We aren’t relativists who believe that Christ is Lord–for us, anyway, but gee, if others don’t believe, we aren’t going to force our beliefs on you by actually praying–in our Mass, where we, and not you, go–prayers which espouse beliefs that you don’t agree with.

I have great respect for our Jewish brothers and sisters, but I will not, by omission or commission, be silent about the truth lest it ‘offend’ another. It is false ecumenism and false charity to allow the truth to be silent in order to placate the false beliefs of others, IMO.

 

[frommi]

As Catholics, we pray that all who do not acknowledge Christ have the veil lifted from their hearts. We feel that all who do not acknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior are living in blindness and darkness, even if they don’t ‘feel’ that they do.

We aren’t relativists who believe that Christ is Lord–for us, anyway, but gee, if others don’t believe, we aren’t going to force our beliefs on you by actually praying–in our Mass, where we, and not you, go–prayers which espouse beliefs that you don’t agree with.

I have great respect for our Jewish brothers and sisters, but I will not, by omission or commission, be silent about the truth lest it ‘offend’ another. It is false ecumenism and false charity to allow the truth to be silent in order to placate the false beliefs of others, IMO.

Is this really about relativism though?

The language was revised with the Novus Ordo, I’m assuming for a very particular reason. Vatican II did lay out some different standards in terms of our relations with the Jews.

So the question to me would be…if you allow the Tridentine rite on a universal basis…is one version of the prayer right and the other wrong?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the indult should not be granted over this…I think some are suggesting that perhaps some of the language should be put more in line with current thinking so it does not look like someone could be rejecting the teachings of Vatican II by going to a Tridentine rite mass.

 

[irenaeus1]

According to St. Paul, the unbelieving Jews still have a veil covering their hearts (cf 2 Cor 3:14-16), so there is nothing wrong with the ‘old’ Good Friday prayer.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

So are we still free to believe or disbelieve in Limbo?

 

[Chickamauga]

Someone mentions old Trid Latin mass and everyone seems to go off the deep end. They start predicting an avalanche of Catholic anti-semetism! Unreal. Wake up world!

The Trid mass never completely went away! An authorized Good Friday Trid mass has been said somewhere without change since post-Vatican II. A point that seems to be lost on many people is that the Triditine mass was NEVER abrogated by the Catholic church, only authorized by indult from the local archbishop. In other words, faithful Trids have been saying the indult 1962 Tridentine Ordo without any change for decades. The hysterical folks can’t seem to get beyond the myth that Trids are SSPX’ers or fringe sedivacantists. :hypno:

 

[frommi]

Someone mentions old Trid Latin mass and everyone seems to go off the deep end. They start predicting an avalanche of Catholic anti-semetism! Unreal. Wake up world!

The Trid mass never completely went away! An authorized Good Friday Trid mass has been said somewhere without change since post-Vatican II. A point that seems to be lost on many people is that the Triditine mass was NEVER abrogated by the Catholic church, only authorized by indult from the local archbishop. In other words, faithful Trids have been saying the indult 1962 Tridentine Ordo without any change for decades. The hysterical folks can’t seem to get beyond the myth that Trids are SSPX’ers or fringe sedivacantists. :hypno:

Again…I don’t see anything that suggests hysteria…but if the policies concerning the use of the mass are taken away from the local bishop, these issues will pop up from time to time.

I don’t think anyone in these articles is saying that this ‘can’t happen’…they are simply saying ‘take a look at these particular prayers…based on what we now know, they could be problematic’.

Keep in mind that a good deal of anti-semitism is present in many of the schismatics who have continued to use the old mass. And this indult is seen as an attempt to bring us closer to reconciliation with them…thus it could be seen logically as an attempt to bring anti-semitism into the fold without addressing it.

 

[irenaeus1]

According to St. Paul, the unbelieving Jews still have a veil covering their hearts (cf 2 Cor 3:14-16), so there is nothing wrong with the ‘old’ Good Friday prayer.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

Of course, I should say that there is nothing wrong with the ‘new’ Good Friday prayer either. It’s just a little more nuanced, but still doctrinally correct. The Jewish people are the first to hear the word of God (as Paul preached in Antioch), and we as a church should pray that the Jews come to the fullness of redemption by faithfulness to his covenant; i.e., the Abrahamic covenant.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[KathleenElsie]

We need to remember it is the Catholic Mass not the “Jewish or Muslim mass”. Just as others hold to their faith we Catholics need to hold to ours.

 

[Chickamauga]

The article reads “Benedict has agreed to restore the Latin mass for the small groups of traditionalists who want it but …” This is not making reference to schismatics at all. The Pope cannot “restore” the Latin mass to schismatics because they are outside the church. He has no authority over them because they don’t want it. The small groups of traditionalists discussed here are not schismatics, but faithful Catholics in communion with Rome who would like to see the trid mass become more accessible.

You can speculate that this is being done to restore relations with the SSPX and other groups, but that is not what is really happening. Reconcillation with the SSPX has been an ongoing problem the Vatican has been addressing for years and it does not hinge soley on the latin mass. The problematic status of SSPX bishops illicitly ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre goes far beyond availability of the latin mass.

The bottom line is this: Outsiders are fretting over a couple of sentences used once a year. In the New Testiment there are far more verses that can be interpreted in a much greater anti-semitic light. Next they will begin harping about other apparently anti-semetic verses in the New Testament and demand that they be re-written and/or removed.

This entire issue has nothing to do with percieved anti-semeticsm, but is very much a case of paranoia by outsiders who are essectially anti-Catholic bigots.

 

[irenaeus1]

Next they will begin harping about other apparently anti-semetic verses in the New Testament and demand that they be re-written and/or removed.

Yeah, like last Sunday’s reading from Acts: "Both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first, but since you reject it and condemn yourselves as unworthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13:46). How terrible of Paul and Barnabas to use such hate speech.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Hellisreal]

I dont think the verbage is in the least bit wrong to use.

I also dont think anyone can tell us how to do a Mass.

 

[childofmary1143]

I dont think the verbage is in the least bit wrong to use.

I also dont think anyone can tell us how to do a Mass.

and yet tell me why the Vatican had non-Catholics consulted with when composing/designing the Novus Ordo Mass?

 

[Dale_M]

and yet tell me why the Vatican had non-Catholics consulted with when composing/designing the Novus Ordo Mass?

Could you tell us more about this?

 

[KathleenElsie]

and yet tell me why the Vatican had non-Catholics consulted with when composing/designing the Novus Ordo Mass?

Can’t tell you why. But this might be one of the reasons that many of us want the old Mass back. We Catholics don’t tell the Protestants/Jews/Islam/etc how or what they can preach so the Protestants/Jews/Islam/etc should not tell us how or what to do in the Catholic Mass.

 

[childofmary1143]

Could you tell us more about this?

It is well known that Jewish and Protestant Leaders were consulted with when they composed/designed the Novus Ordo Mass