Explain the justice of hell.

[Lilybean11]

CAF,

This is going to be so long, I’m so sorry. Forgive my rambling that will come next. I am just in a terrible faith crisis. I am so far away from God it is unbearable. I am hoping someone can offer me some insight or advice, though just feeling heard might help, because I am hurting so much and am so filled with turmoil I feel I may explode.

I’m confused about so many things. Hell, justice, the very goodness of God. I think what has me the most confused is the very concept of Hell. I am supposed to understand God as a merciful, kind, forgiving, and loving God.The one who loves me and everyone else more than anyone can. Yet a place like Hell can exist? I realize that God does not “send” us to Hell, we do so ourselves. But it is by his judgment that we receive our fate. How can he love us, yet allow us to spend ETERNITY in hell? Does anyone deserve that? I can accept someone getting a trillion years in hell, as long as at some point the suffering would end. But forever? Does anyone deserve FOREVER in unending misery? I cannot picture a God, who I am to know as the epitome of love, to allow such fate to exist. I only see one who is unforgiving, wrathful, and pitiless. I don’t think anyone deserves unending hell- Does that make me more loving than God? More forgiving than God? More merciful than God? Those are not possible things, then how could it be that a God who love and forgives better than I allow a place like Hell, at his judgment, to exist? How?

Furthermore, I am to understand that those who do not believe in God may go to Hell if they have been exposed to Him. How is that fair? If you don’t believe something, you don’t believe something. You can’t force yourself to believe something, otherwise you don’t really believe it at all. Belief and faith are things that are not in your control. Belief is something inside, not something that you can choose to turn on and turn off. If someone does not believe in God, why should they be punished with unending hell for that? Why SHOULD they believe? I feel that those who do not believe have every reason to not believe, and it is understandable that they don’t. There is not proof of anything. And I know that with “faith” you don’t need proof. But even with Christians we have to have a “reason” that we believe something. Otherwise we could just believe anything- there are plenty of ideas and faiths to choose from. (And if God punishes us for not believing something that turns out to be true, then maybe I should just believe EVERYTHING, just in case. It’s like a trap: have a dozen faiths and schools of thoughts thrown at you, and then be punished if you don’t pick the right one- even though any could be true, in theory.) Obviously, Christians have found some reason to believe what they do, whereas athiests have not found that reason, that push to believe. Anyway, the only reason I am going on about this is that my brother does not believe. He has not just blatantly decided to turn on God- he simply doesn’t believe that there is anyone to turn ON in the first place. Will my LOVING GOD send my GOOD brother to HELL for ETERNITY for reasoning that he does not believe in a higher power? How could God do that? How can I believe that a loving God could do something so… evil?

I am having SUCH a hard time.** I am in a terrible state of sin. A terrible, terrible state of sin. I feel so guilty for the thoughts I have. I don’t know if I am really struggling to believe in God, but I am struggling with contemplating his goodness. Could he be turning people away from Heaven because they have too many mortal sins or because they had not found faith? Could He really do that to his children? Allowing those souls to spend FOREVER in hell? I think of God in this way, and I think of evil. And I cannot love him. And now I am crying because I know that is such an awful, awful thing I have said. Unforgivable. And I know that if I were to die right now, I would be forever separated from God because I am having such a hard time loving Him. I don’t know what to do.**

I try. I try and I try and I try. But I am just so angry at God for the fate of so many. I try to love him, but I am so confused. My view of Him is so warped. I KNOW he is not evil, I know he is good and loving and merciful. (But I do not feel it. I want to love Him. I want to trust him. But I just can’t. How can God forgive me… for not loving Him? How can I MAKE myself love him when I feel this way?

I know I basically just babbled, and did not really give many direct questions. I guess I am just trying to figure out how to understand a God who loves so divinely but punishes so severely, and what I can do in the state of sin I am in. How can I make amends with God for the terrible feelings and thoughts I am harboring? Can God forgive me for my feelings even while I am still struggling to correct them? I am so lost.

 

[steve_b]

OK, the statement may then be amended to read: Might it not equally have been good that the gentiles & Jews might have been patient? Were they not shut out of salvation until the Jews failed to understand the scope of the new offer?

okay, they were patient. How does that change what happened?
J:

Consider the statement:

When [a child] does not return love to [the parent], they are at some point in their future, separated for all eternity from [the parent].

The point is they don’t care. They didn’t love their parent in the first place. They are already seperated from that parent. At some point that seperation is made permanent. That’s merely eternalizing the child’s decision. The parent didn’t DO this, the child did this.
J:

Is it not “non loving” (or at the very least apathetic) for the parent in the above case to be satisfied with such a state of affairs? Particularly in view of the fact that the parent appears absent from the life of the child?

should a child be forced to love when they don’t? How does that happen? Where is the satisfaction in that, and would it be sincere? I think not.
J:

Actually, yes, it was.

Actually it isn’t

God making rules for us to follow, isn’t like the example you used with guards at a prison camp.
J:

Does this not essentially simplify to “might makes right”?

I would say, it’s simplified by God saying, you wouldn’t follow my will, so your will be done. You are seperated from me now by your choice, so I eternalize your choice.
J:

Is “who art thou to question me?” the proper response from a being of infinite patience and understanding who might truly wish to have a loving relationship with mankind?

If you go one chapter before that and one chapter after that, i.e. Job chapters 37-39, I thought it was a magnificent answer and fully respectful of Job.
J:

Certainly that could be how it would be should God so choose. Alternately, could it not be any other way, should God so choose?

He’s already taught us what His plan is.
J:

How might it be idolatry to live a peaceful existence?

Define peaceful existence?

By your own definition of who you are, you don’t have supernatural faith. Without that faith, one can’t please God in anything they do, because they don’t acknowledge Him.
J:

Is it then acceptable to torture those who may have expended their solitary chance?

The point is, people who don’t love God, don’t recognize Him, do so by their own willful choice. Since God is omniscient, He knows perfectly one’s choices up to the end of one’s life. There should be no surprise their choice is made eternal.
J:

It has been thought about. Is it to be understood that this is truly the best a perfect being of goodness could conceive?

And for those who have not “probably” done so, what is their fate?

Is that an affirmation or refutation of the question:

“Is it to be understood that in order to avoid impinging on an individual’s free will [in forcing a relationship], God will impinge on an individual’s free will [by constraining them to Hell?]”

If our will is truly “free”, then all is possible. If all is not possible, then our will is not truly “free”.

Our will is truly free.

 

[paul_c]

CAF,

This is going to be so long, I’m so sorry. Forgive my rambling that will come next. I am just in a terrible faith crisis. I am so far away from God it is unbearable. I am hoping someone can offer me some insight or advice, though just feeling heard might help, because I am hurting so much and am so filled with turmoil I feel I may explode.

Not to worry. This is why we are here. to help each other through these crises.

I’m confused about so many things. Hell, justice, the very goodness of God. I think what has me the most confused is the very concept of Hell. I am supposed to understand God as a merciful, kind, forgiving, and loving God.The one who loves me and everyone else more than anyone can. Yet a place like Hell can exist? I realize that God does not “send” us to Hell, we do so ourselves. But it is by his judgment that we receive our fate. How can he love us, yet allow us to spend ETERNITY in hell? Does anyone deserve that? I can accept someone getting a trillion years in hell, as long as at some point the suffering would end. But forever? Does anyone deserve FOREVER in unending misery? I cannot picture a God, who I am to know as the epitome of love, to allow such fate to exist. I only see one who is unforgiving, wrathful, and pitiless. I don’t think anyone deserves unending hell- Does that make me more loving than God? More forgiving than God? More merciful than God? Those are not possible things, then how could it be that a God who love and forgives better than I allow a place like Hell, at his judgment, to exist? How?

God is indeed merciful. He will take you back, no matter what your sins were, right up to your last breath, if only you ask him to with a contrite heart and you do so sacramentally. And you see, he loves you so much that he respects your wishes. If you wish to be with him, he will allow it, and if you wish to shun him, he will allow that as well. But keep in mind, if we wish to be with him, we must be willing to do his will which is what is best for us. The problem many people have is this regard is that they think they know better than God what is best for them. When you sit back and think about this, you realize that you simply have no where near the insight that God has so he clearly knows what is best for you. Then its simply a matter of trusting God to do what is best for you. This is difficult sometimes, when things are going bad, but remember, suffering leads to love and love leads to God. Why do I say suffering leads to love? Well, love is doing something for another without expecting anything in return. If you have everything you need, then no one can do anything for you so you recieve no love. But you can Give love to others in need.

Furthermore, I am to understand that those who do not believe in God may go to Hell if they have been exposed to Him. How is that fair? If you don’t believe something, you don’t believe something. You can’t force yourself to believe something, otherwise you don’t really believe it at all. Belief and faith are things that are not in your control. Belief is something inside, not something that you can choose to turn on and turn off. If someone does not believe in God, why should they be punished with unending hell for that? Why SHOULD they believe? I feel that those who do not believe have every reason to not believe, and it is understandable that they don’t. There is not proof of anything. And I know that with “faith” you don’t need proof. But even with Christians we have to have a “reason” that we believe something. Otherwise we could just believe anything- there are plenty of ideas and faiths to choose from. (And if God punishes us for not believing something that turns out to be true, then maybe I should just believe EVERYTHING, just in case. It’s like a trap: have a dozen faiths and schools of thoughts thrown at you, and then be punished if you don’t pick the right one- even though any could be true, in theory.) Obviously, Christians have found some reason to believe what they do, whereas athiests have not found that reason, that push to believe. Anyway, the only reason I am going on about this is that my brother does not believe. He has not just blatantly decided to turn on God- he simply doesn’t believe that there is anyone to turn ON in the first place. Will my LOVING GOD send my GOOD brother to HELL for ETERNITY for reasoning that he does not believe in a higher power? How could God do that? How can I believe that a loving God could do something so… evil?

God reveals himself to all men and makes his wishes known to them through conscience. Some simply ignore this and shut out the voices of conscience when it doesn’t conform to their own desires. And really, that’s the rub, isn’t it. We want to bend the truth to our own desires rather than bend our own desires to the truth and that simply can not work. Belief is a choice to recognize and submit to a higher power. Some people simply can not accept the fact that there is a power greater and more knowledgeable than themselves that will lead them to ultimate happiness… Many times they can only learn to accept this fact when they have been sufficiently humbled by personal tragedy. Again, suffering can and does lead to love. If you never have setbacks, its easy to suppose that you are personally omnipotent. For this reason, God insures that everyone has setbacks to let them know that they don’t control everything

 

[paul_c]

.

I am having SUCH a hard time.** I am in a terrible state of sin. A terrible, terrible state of sin. I feel so guilty for the thoughts I have. I don’t know if I am really struggling to believe in God, but I am struggling with contemplating his goodness. Could he be turning people away from Heaven because they have too many mortal sins or because they had not found faith? Could He really do that to his children? Allowing those souls to spend FOREVER in hell? I think of God in this way, and I think of evil. And I cannot love him. And now I am crying because I know that is such an awful, awful thing I have said. Unforgivable. And I know that if I were to die right now, I would be forever separated from God because I am having such a hard time loving Him. I don’t know what to do.**

Despair is the devil’s tool. He is keeping you focused on the negative when God is calling you to the positive. Think of it this way, God will take you into eternal bliss if you will only trust him and do his will. Not such a hard thing, in the end. Just simply follow your conscience and partake of the sacraments, which will give you the grace to do that. This in the end was the difference between Judas and Peter, both who denied Christ. Judas was condemned because he despaired and lost his trust in God. Peter, on the other hand, was exalted because he continued to trust in Jesus’ mercy and was willing to submit to his will.

I try. I try and I try and I try. But I am just so angry at God for the fate of so many. I try to love him, but I am so confused. My view of Him is so warped. I KNOW he is not evil, I know he is good and loving and merciful. (But I do not feel it. I want to love Him. I want to trust him. But I just can’t. How can God forgive me… for not loving Him? How can I MAKE myself love him when I feel this way?

By trusting God to do what is right for every person. Try reading C.S. Lewis book about heaven and hell called, " The great divorce" for some of that perspective. In it he shows that those in hell are there because they want to be and given the chance to go to heaven, they choose hell over and over again because the things they value are not suitable for heaven. For example, if you are a strong man and you value your strength as a way to get what you want from others, this is incompatible with heaven and you won’t be happy there.

I know I basically just babbled, and did not really give many direct questions. I guess I am just trying to figure out how to understand a God who loves so divinely but punishes so severely, and what I can do in the state of sin I am in. How can I make amends with God for the terrible feelings and thoughts I am harboring? Can God forgive me for my feelings even while I am still struggling to correct them? I am so lost.

God will absolutely forgive you. If you are catholic, go to confession and all your sins will be forgiven and you can start anew. If you are not Catholic, consider it, because Jesus gave his priests the ability to forgive sins in his name. Hearts can be changed in an instant sometimes. Sometimes, though, it takes a great deal of time. Just Trust that God will deliver you if you open yourself up to his mercy.

By the way, I did not think you were babbling, simply reaching out for help. I’ll be here for you if you need more.

 

[paul_c]

If one’s master does not appear good, is one obligated to follow his dictates? Does morality not demand rebellion?

What makes you think you are more moral than God. Could it be that you simply dont understand his plan? Perhaps a little more study is in order. You see, you are falling into the devil’s snare. He wants you to believe that God is capricious and cruel, when actually the opposite is true. God will allow anyone to come to him, right up to the moment of their death. He calls out to everyman through conscience - and I know you recognize that although I am would not be surprised to hear you dismiss those feelings you have regarding good and evil as not spiritual - such is the attitude of the unbeliever. When you demand a rebellion against God, and he allows you to go to hell, isnt that exactly what you are requesting? You don’t want the comfort that God’s grace provides, so you will get what you want. Of course, God is merciful and will accept you into his grace at any point you are willing to come to him for relief. Maybe he will show his mercy on you and humble you in a way that will make you come to accept that there is a power greater than you. Suffering begets love and love leads you to God in this way.

.

There seems little contentment to be found if one willingly follows a master who appears cruel.

And there is the rub. You have been lead astray to the point where you can’t tell good from evil anymore. heaven and earth could have exactly the same landscape. But heaven is populated by those that look out for each other, while hell is populated by those that look out for themselves. Heaven is bliss, while those in Hell are tormented by each other, each one looking to take advantage of the other. The damned could not function in heaven because their values and desires are incompatible with it. They trust in their own strength after all. In the end, everyone gets what they want… Are you ready still to condemn God for putting you in a place where you and everyone else can do whatever they want

 

[Non_sum_dignus]

Think of morality less as an arbitrary set of rules and more as a training regimen. The things you do in life condition you for the afterlife. God, being the author of human nature, knows what will help us to realize our true nature, and He knows what will derail us.

If you wanted to win the Boston Marathon, there are things you would have to do in training. You’d need enough rest, a healthful diet, and lots of physical training. And you’d really, really have to quit smoking (a mortal sin for marathoners, as it were).

And, just like with physical conditioning, spiritual conditioning requires that we forego certain pleasures and comforts. We’ve got a long race to run, and we can’t afford to compromise our spiritual health with certain things.

 

[steve_b]

If one’s master does not appear good, is one obligated to follow his dictates? Does morality not demand rebellion?

There seems little contentment to be found if one willingly follows a master who appears cruel.

You create an idol then attack the idol you make for not being what you want it to be?

God at harvest time, eternally gives the soul what they chose. That’s not cruel but it is just.

 

[Contarini]

The original point being that if Abraham and his descendents were meant to be wards of some form of divine knowledge and had a covenant with God, why did their knowledge and rites seemingly come to them through practices already long in use by the Egyptians? Is it to be considered that God initially made the same offer to Egypt? Or was God merely lacking originality?

You seem to be working from the odd assumption that God only communicated with the Israelites, and that all other beliefs and practices came from some other source.

Just why would you think that this is the orthodox Christian position?

Everything comes from God. Only evil does not, because evil is a privation rather than a positive thing.

You continue to caricature Christianity.

God may have sporadically revealed himself to random individuals throughout time, certainly. Equally possible is that the Israelite people adopted the book of Job as their own from some other source.

Or more likely (maybe this is what you mean, in fact), a Hebrew sage wrote the book of Job (probably sometime after the exile) drawing on themes and literary tropes that had been around in ancient Near Eastern literature for a very long time.

It would seem difficult to imagine anyone evil enough to warrant torture for any degree of time. This is provable by considering if one would be able to torture anyone (or observe the event) if commanded to do so.

Indeed. But you’re assuming that God deliberately and retributively tortures people. Certainly some Christians believe this. Many, such as myself, do not. In fact the alternative view has been presented to you over and over on this thread, and you simply ignore it.

Once more, as many folks have already told you: the torment of hell is simply a description of what it is like to cut yourself off from God’s love. It isn’t that God chooses to torment people, but that you can turn yourself into the kind of person who cannot experience God as anything other than torment.

Does simply saying that you don’t believe in God make you that kind of person? Not in my opinion. If the “God” you don’t believe in is a false idol in the first place (and the “God” you seem to disbelieve in is one of the nastier idols I’ve encountered), then rejecting such a "God’ is an act of worship to the true God.

However, it is certainly possible that an atheist might continue to reject God out of pride or whatever even after receiving true knowledge of God. And that’s certainly going to have a very bad effect on your capacity to enjoy the true God forever, which is the calling of all human beings.

If Hell is not a locale of torture then must not descriptions of its vileness be largely hyperbole? If so, would this not suggest that Jesus was subject to exaggeration?

Jesus was obviously given to hyperbole. Are you under the impression that that is somehow a surprising or controversial claim?

However, the language about hell was common in many circles in Second Temple Judaism.

Again, a basic problem you have is that you persist in speaking as if Christians are supposed to believe that the Bible (including Jesus Himself) exists in a cultural vacuum. Some Christians are so naive as to believe this, certainly. But it doesn’t make any sense, and when you have debunked this silly version of Christianity you have not come anywhere near debunking Christianity itself.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I think what has me the most confused is the very concept of Hell. I am supposed to understand God as a merciful, kind, forgiving, and loving God.The one who loves me and everyone else more than anyone can. Yet a place like Hell can exist?

What do you mean by “a place like Hell”?

Hell is a name for the total rejection of God by a conscious human being, as experienced after death.

I realize that God does not “send” us to Hell, we do so ourselves. But it is by his judgment that we receive our fate. How can he love us, yet allow us to spend ETERNITY in hell?

The best answer I know is that God respects our freedom. God does not either force us to accept Him or wipe us out of existence if we reject Him.

However, I think there are two other less likely but still possible alternatives:

1. Everyone is ultimately saved;
2. God does in fact cause those who finally reject Him to cease to exist.

Both of these views have been held by devout and intelligent Christians, and are gaining in popularity. I’m not convinced that either of them is correct, but I take them seriously.

Does anyone deserve that? I can accept someone getting a trillion years in hell, as long as at some point the suffering would end. But forever? Does anyone deserve FOREVER in unending misery?

I think “deserve” is the wrong word. At least, it seems to have the wrong connotations these days. “Deserve” in this context simply means “what you have made yourself capable of.” If you make yourself incapable of experiencing God except as torment, then when God is all in all there will be nothing left to you but torment.

We can hope and pray that no one in fact finally rejects God in this way. Hans Urs von Balthasar, the current Pope’s favorite theologian, held that we cannot know for sure whether or not anyone at all will go to hell, and thus we can and should hope that all will be saved.

Furthermore, I am to understand that those who do not believe in God may go to Hell if they have been exposed to Him. How is that fair? If you don’t believe something, you don’t believe something. You can’t force yourself to believe something, otherwise you don’t really believe it at all.

With all due respect, I think your picture of the human mind here is a bit simplistic.

Our “ability” to believe something or not is shaped by the kind of person we are.

If you become a more and more suspicious and paranoid person, you will eventually sincerely believe that people who love you are plotting against you. At that point you may no longer be able to help believing these false things. But that doesn’t mean that you are not responsible for your false and destructive beliefs.

And most of the time we can choose between several different beliefs. If a students hands in a paper that looks a bit better than I expected, I can choose to believe that they have worked hard, or I can choose to believe that they have cheated. If one news source gives me one version of a current event and another gives me another, and there’s no clear-cut way to be sure which is correct, I can choose which to believe. And, again, what I choose in that case will be shaped by the kind of person I am, and will further shape the kind of person I am.

I feel that those who do not believe have every reason to not believe, and it is understandable that they don’t.

You don’t know this for sure one way or the other. It is charitable to assume that this is the case.

Will my LOVING GOD send my GOOD brother to HELL for ETERNITY for reasoning that he does not believe in a higher power?

Not if he’s really good and really seeking the truth, no. Of course not.

I am having SUCH a hard time.** I am in a terrible state of sin. A terrible, terrible state of sin. I feel so guilty for the thoughts I have. **

Why? Why do you assume that you are sinning? I think you are a bit confused and aren’t thinking through this issue carefully enough, but you seem to be on the right track in your refusal to call evil good and good evil. That’s one thing we know God honors, if there is a God at all. (See, I’m not 100% sure of my own faith–but I choose to believe.)

** I think of God in this way, and I think of evil. And I cannot love him. And now I am crying because I know that is such an awful, awful thing I have said. Unforgivable. And I know that if I were to die right now, I would be forever separated from God because I am having such a hard time loving Him. I don’t know what to do.**

It sounds to me as if you do love God. You don’t love the false idol you have formed in your mind. And you shouldn’t. It would say something much more disturbing about your spiritual condition if you did. You are broken-hearted because you do love God, not because you don’t. At least that’s how it looks to me.

Edwin

 

[Blue_Horizon]

How can you despise something that you don’t think exists? In all honesty, if there is a super intelligent creator, I would love to meet them and be enlightened to such vast knowledge. Although yes…I would find a god that did so also deplorable.

jmvizanko
You nominally come across as trying to be an intelligent and sincere non-believer.
Yet there seem to be inconsistencies in your approach/responses that contradict this and the above is a good example. You start out rejecting someone’s response as illogical and then seem to suddenly realise you have condemned your own thread starter in the same breath and so back-track.

What exactly are the emotions that drive you, an atheist, to engage on a Catholic Forum?

I think you may be overthinking Catholic teaching and attempting to put a sharp, narrow weight on words and phrases that obviously cannot be supported (though some responders may not realise this) - as I am sure you intuitively know. Refuting paper tigers doesn’t really make anyone look smarter or righter.

As for your thread starter, what exactly is there to explain? Karma is karma, cause and effect. Ice-cream tastes nice, friendship is wonderful, powerpoints will shock you if you put your finger in them, enmity is painful. Life ends in death. There are probably much more salient questions that could be asked than this.

If God has not invited you to come over to his place and play with his toys then I feel sad for you but that shouldn’t affect how you feel about yourself. If God doesn’t exist then obviously the toys you have are adequate. Why keep looking out the front-step window?

What do you care what unintelligent company He keeps?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

In all honesty, if there is a super intelligent creator, I would love to meet them and be enlightened to such vast knowledge.

jmvizanko
Of all the attributes you could have attributed to God above the one you chose is most likely the key to the difficulties you are having. Thus you may be overthinking Catholic teaching and attempting to place a sharp, narrow weight on words and phrases that obviously cannot support same (though some responders may not realise this) as I am sure you intuitively know. Refuting paper tigers doesn’t really make anyone look smart-er or right-er.

Re your thread starter, what exactly is there to explain? Karma is karma, cause and effect. Ice-cream tastes nice, friendship is wonderful, powerpoints will shock you if you put your finger in them, enmity is painful. Life ends in death. There are probably more salient questions that could be asked than this.

If God has not invited you to come over to his place and play with his toys then that shouldn’t affect how you feel about yourself. If God doesn’t exist and his friends are lying then obviously the toys you have are probably the best there are. Why keep looking out the front-step window? Why engage on a Catholic Forum?

Try not to judge God by the illiterate company he may keep.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Depends whether one wants immortality or whether one doesn’t.

Why? Who might choose to refuse immortality in a heavenly abode?

Certainty is something the Catholic faith does not propose to offer by comparison to some other religious denominations.

Certainly, Jesus did teach the one is who is forgiven more will love his ‘master’ more. However, note the terms forgiveness and love. Those in Hell not only want neither, but know it is possible. There is a difference between doubt, lack of faith and outright rejection. Outright rejection is not disbelief as a consequence of finding a particular line of argument unconvincing. Outright rejection is knowing truth but rejecting in favour of what is false. Scripture tells us Satan knows there is a God, and knew Jesus was the Son of God, yet rejected him. Those in Hell are no longer capbale of loving God. So, they will not develop a relationship with God of any sort. this concept is not so strange as in this life, we see people who recoil from those who choose good because they prefer what is not. They don’t like to around people who choose good and have a high sense of morality because they have no desire to be the same. Consequently, they resent those who are not like them, and in fact may actually hate them.

OK, but more work will be required to convince that an individual who knows (not just suspects or considers) what is true is able to reject it in favor of what is false. Who might be found who might know that their mother is good and kindly, but choose to believe that she is wicked?

Yes, that’s retributive justice and related to one’s image of God. It is the case there is temptation to indulge the thought ‘God will punish people who don’t agree with me that I don’t approve of.’ God may not. Jesus illustrated this with the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Workers who come in at the ‘last hour’ are given the same ‘wages’ as those who have been ‘working’ for longer, which makes them angry and they feel they have been cheated. However, they have not because they have been given what was agreed, if the owner of the vineyard wants to ‘pay’ the same ‘wage’ to someone who hasn’t ‘worked’ as long, that’s the owner’s prerogative. The parable ends by stating, ‘God gives to whom he wants.’ (Or something similar)

OK

 

[Jelrak_TB]

If repentance is not acheived in this life, why would it be in another one?

Is a psychopath able to repent? If not able, is it not incumbent on God to repair the damaged mental connections responsible for this lack? If so, who, but a psychopath might be made to endure the hardships of his/her victim without experiencing a basic regret for the harm done? If none might be found (or very few), would this not solve the difficulty of Hell by rendering it unnecessary?

My argument was the pains of Hell and joys of heaven are, to an extent, experienced in this life.

If so, is the billionaire of one’s acquaintance who is experiencing Heaven while on Earth appropriately compensated for the Hell after death? Is the suffering waif in the slums experiencing Hell in advance to allow for a future Heaven?

What do you think that place should be like? What would inspire the person to repent?

Experience. Empathy. Time. Would not one free from daily pressures, allowed an eternity to self-assess and consider all actions in light of a perfect memory free from biased distortions be more capable of repentance than a high-strung executive on his way up the corporate ladder?

Catholics believe God repairs this damage through baptism and the sacrament of reconciliation. Therefore, through the sacraments this can be acheived in this life.

Please consider this quotation from an internet site:

"Consider:

1. God gives us free will.
2. Free will is supposed to let us choose between doing bad and doing
   good.
3. But free will is defective by itself: try as I might, I keep
   sinning, just as god has always known I will do.
4. We have to go to god and show him the free-will thing is broken.
5. God issues a Factory Recall and admits the free-will thing is
   broken; we all have to come back to the factory for an upgrade.
6. The instructions on how to get the upgrade are confusing and
   unclear. Do I give soup to the poor? Call on the Holy Name? 1,000
   different GodCo dealers give different instructions on how I get my
   upgrade.
7. Presumably, some few people get the recall instructions right.
8. On a case-by case basis god installs the “salvation” or “grace”
   module or whatever it is called.
9. Now, some few of his creatures have the proper upgrade, and are
   “saved” and presumably sin no more.
10. The rest are horribly punished.

This all begs the question: why did god give us the broken and useless
“free will” module in the first place? I say “useless” because it
doesn’t actually DO anything. It might seem to pull this way and that,
and contemplate different choices, but tomorrow I will do exactly what
god foresaw me doing. The “free will” module is really just an
autopilot. It inevitably directs me to exactly where god has foreseen
me being. On March 13 my “free will” autopilot will direct me to
Cleveland, where I will pick up a waitress and we will have carnal
relations. And nothing I can do today or any other day can stop that
from happening… it has been foreseen.

Maybe someday my “free will” autopilot will direct me to a GodCo
dealer. I will get the factory upgrade to the defective “free will”
module, and have the “salvation” module installed. I will think it is
installed, and feel it is installed. After all, I trust my local GodCo
dealer. Now I can walk through life sin-free.

Or can I? Keep in mind that the 1000 different GodCo dealers have each
received different instructions for the factory recall. Presumably,
only one GodCo dealer has been given the right procedure, and the rest
are counterfeit. I may have a “Salvation” module that looks just like
a salvation module, and feels just like a salvation module, but is
actually a cheap defective knockoff.

And I can’t know, there is no way to know, until one day I wake up in
some sort of torment. And realize it will go on forever. And then,
maybe I will think: “if only I had gone to that other GodCo dealer,
and gotten the Salvation Module from them…”

I suppose an excellent additional torment would be to tell the people
in hell what the one true religion was. A voice will issue from a
loudspeaker and say: “Didn’t you know? It was the Anabaptist branch of
Reform Presbyterianism. They were the only dealership that got the
proper Salvation Modules, the rest of the dealers got fakes.”
This will be an especially great torment because now there is nothing
I can do about it. Then again, there was really nothing I could do
about it in life either. There was no action I could take that could
possibly shift the universe one inch from its foreseen course, and now
I am here.

If you want to believe a Loving God actually created the universe like
this, go ahead. But it seems like very bad design.
In my lawsuit against any person or being who created a system like
this, I would charge them with:
–Making a defective product: namely, the “free will” module.
–False advertising as to the capabilities of the “free will” module"
–Knowingly allowing the defective product to remain on the market,
causing enormous harm.
–Conducting a bad-faith recall effort, in which most dealers were
allowed to issue completely false instructions for the recall
procedure.
–etc.

-Eric Griswald, R.C."

Granted it is a caricature, but is it not strange that God might choose this method to redeem a fallen mankind made so by design?

If people were sent to Hell because of ignorance, heaven would be a very empty place.

Perhaps that is what makes it Heaven?

A person who is ignorant through no fault of their own is not culpable for their ignorance to the same extent as someone who bears a degree of responsibility for their own ignorance.
For example, suspecting something might contain an element of truth but choosing to ignore it.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

It’s an illustration. However, it’s a fair comment. God does not restore us if we don’t want to be restored. The question of free will and God’s non-interference with that free will is a very difficult on and to date, any explanation leaves something to be desired. I believe one would know the answer if one could exercise the same degree of power. We don’t really know what sort of world we would create if we had unlimited power. Therefore, I can’t tell you what the world would be like, or what we as individuals would be like, if God used his power in the way we humans sometimes think he should. What I do know of power is the more power one has the more self-constraint one needs.

It is a fair point, but would this suggest that God might require infinite restraint?

 

[minkymurph]

Why? Who might choose to refuse immortality in a heavenly abode?

Those who have been consumed by evil. Those consumed by evil could not dwell in the presence of those who have been consumed by good. People who choose evil aren’t that comfortable around those who choose good.

OK, but more work will be required to convince that an individual who knows (not just suspects or considers) what is true is able to reject it in favor of what is false. Who might be found who might know that their mother is good and kindly, but choose to believe that she is wicked?

Perhaps the manner in which I articulated my line of thought left something to be desired. The term ‘reject’ is possibly not the best way to explain what I mean. It’s not a case that someone would choose to believe their mother is wicked, but rather reject her because she is not, and perhaps in fact hate her because she is not. Not such a strange concept when one considers the fact that we encounter people like this in everyday life - people who have an intense dislike of people who are honest, who have integrity, who don’t take bribes (ever seen the film Serpico?) …the list is endless.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

The knowledge of God did not come from the practice of circumcision. Circumcision was a sign of the covenential agreement between Abraham and his descendents and God. This occurred after God made himself known to Abraham. Abraham is considered the Father of monotheism. His understanding was far different than the paganism of the ancient Egyptians.

Fair enough, however was circumcision suggested by God or by Abraham to fulfill the purpose of their covenant?

Why would it be equally possible that the Hebrews adopted the book of Job from others? This seems highly improbable since the Book of Job has been part of the Hebrew canon for well over 2000 years and there is no evidence at all that it came from somewhere else. This is merely speculation on your part, with no supporting data.

Quite so. Equally speculative is that “God may have sporadically revealed himself to random individuals throughout time.”

Consider for a moment, that there are two basic possibilities : comfort and discomfort. In heaven, there is comfort from being with God. In Hell, this comfort is lacking and hence can be called discomfort. Life is full of discomfort from the very rich to the very poor. This discomfort comes in different varieties, but its there none the less. No one can deny it. This is part of the challenge of life – to love others in the face of discomfort. During our life, if we choose to love God and others, then we are doing the will of God and will be happy doing that in the next life. On the other hand, if we are not aligned with God’s will in life, we will not be happy doing it later. And by forsaking God, we forsake the comfort of being with him and doing what we were made to do. This is hell, eternal discomfort, because we have separated ourselves from the God that made us and that knowledge will be as burning as any fire.

OK, so there is Heaven, which is knowledge and proximity to God; there is Hell, which is knowledge and absence of God; and there is Earth, which is lack of knowledge and distance from God. Fair enough, but then we are informed that not only is God good, but he is pure love.

How might a being of pure love choose to abandon a percentage of his children for eternity? Children over whom he has stated to be deeply concerned their entire lives long…only to dispose of them after death? Having foreknowledge of their end, was God only pretending to be concerned about them in life? Or is he still lovingly concerned with them for eternity, but simply does not know what to do to make them love him of their own free will? If so, may one be so bold as to suggest that throwing them into a lake of fire might be the wrong approach?

Well, there is no comfort in Hell because that comes from God and those in Hell have separated themselves from that comfort. I suspect that the torture that exists in Hell is propagated by the denizens of Hell itself. Envision a place populated by the most evil men in history with no police force. And isnt that exactly what people in Hell have wished for all their lives: to be in a place where they could do anything they want with no police force to stop them? Be careful what you ask for…

It has been suggested that those who become evil were either deprived of good during their formative years, have a substance addiction, harbor a grave hurt, are overcompensating for fear/paranoia, or have a mental imbalance that deprives them of the ability to fully sense empathy.

Which of these difficulties might be beyond the ability of a being of infinite power comprised of pure love to mend?

More simply: is it not necessarily the case that either God is able to touch the heart of even the most calloused criminal, or he is not? If not, is he able to be considered all-powerful? If able, but choosing to abstain on principle, is he able to be considered all-loving?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

I’ve just read through the thread. What I found most intriguing about the original argument was the idea that God wasn’t providing the original poster with any reason to believe in His existence. My thought is that, on a forum like this, there are plenty of people who see countless reasons to believe in His existence. The original poster would, of course, deny that there was anything wilfull in his rejection of these perceived reasons.

Although believing Christians might warn him that God might expect a little more effort on his part, it makes me think about how much God is giving me that I’m deciding I’m not quite ready to accept. In a sense, I’m in the same position as the implicit atheist, only much farther along the continuum toward belief.

I have observed enough of God’s effect on my own life to accept his existence as empirically proven. Unfortunately, the proof is so internal and individual that it probably isn’t much good to anyone else. But the argument here is an excellent reminder to believers that we all draw lines beyond which we are unwilling to meet God. Worse yet, we’re supposed to believe in Him!

This is an interesting insight. Thank you.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

What I said in another thread just now…

Don’t see hell as a place of destination chosen by God. The folly in that view is that God can choose where we go and that on His own whim he can make one person go here and another go there. That makes God subjective, which he isn’t.

A good idea of hell came from one of the teachers of the East. He says that hell isn’t a place devoid of God, but rather like heaven, a person is subjected to the fullness of God’s love. The problem is because a person lived his life rejecting God and the way of life He wants us to live, that person cannot accept that love. Thus instead of being a source of warmth and eternal bliss, it becomes painful for the person.

Why then might God have consistently stressed his role as judge? Further, why could not a soul in such a position eventually habituate herself to God’s love?

Alternately, what might prevent God from shielding those in discomfort? Is it to be considered that God is either unobservant of their pain or merely unmindful of it?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Hell was never intended for mankind but was created for the angels who rebelled against God. Since they were in heaven and saw the majesty of God, their punishment was more severe. One of the characteristics of God is Justice. Just as we see mankind craving for justice here on earth when someone murders another…would it be morally just to let him go…Divine Justice is in the essence or nature of God. God is also Holy. The Holiness of God is such that no stain of sin can exist in His Presence.

Thomas Aquinas spells it out very succinctly on the nature of God and the reasons for Divine punishment which would answers ones concerns on this topic in Summa Theologica. It explains it here:
**
calledtocommunion.com/2009/04/aquinas-and-trent-part-5/**

Blessings to all,

Is justice about causing equal measures of harm to wrongdoers or is it about protecting society from further risk?

Consider: if an individual were to murder one’s close friend, would one feel justice had been better served by:

1. Murdering the offender
2. Curing the offender so that he might truly repent of his evil past and become a productive member of society

Which measure of justice might be considered to better meet with the approval of a perfect deity comprised entirely of love?

 

[minkymurph]

Is a psychopath able to repent? If not able, is it not incumbent on God to repair the damaged mental connections responsible for this lack? If so, who, but a psychopath might be made to endure the hardships of his/her victim without experiencing a basic regret for the harm done? If none might be found (or very few), would this not solve the difficulty of Hell by rendering it unnecessary?

I have absolutely no idea if a psychopath is able to repent. That’s a question only God could answer. In terms of justice, I would say if someone is incapable of realizing the consequences of their actions, the are not fully culpable.

Catholic’s believe God does repair the damage through the sacraments and the purgatorial state - not in a physical sense but in a spiritual sense.

If so, is the billionaire of one’s acquaintance who is experiencing Heaven while on Earth appropriately compensated for the Hell after death? Is the suffering waif in the slums experiencing Hell in advance to allow for a future Heaven?

If I understand you correctly, I would reject this line of thought because it’s too closely connected to two schools of thought I don’t agree with; one being it doesn’t matter how much we suffer in this life because we will get our reward in heaven. We should do something about our own suffering and that of others NOW. The other is if we experience joy in this world, we get misery in the next. People do not experience Hell as a consequence of good fortune. There’s a name for that belief but I can’t remember it.

I will consider the rest of your post and get back to you. Unfortunately, I’ve just been evicted from the computer by the other half and kids and I think war will break out in relation to who gets it first …:slapfight:

My money’s on the kids…:nunchuk: