Explain the justice of hell.

[ivebeenshown]

Then that will be an action they must be judged by.

Isn’t it interesting how many people will say “I believe” or “I do not believe” and seem to disregard completely the fact that belief is an action?

 

[jmvizanko]

Isn’t it interesting how many people will say “I believe” or “I do not believe” and seem to disregard completely the fact that belief is an action?

Saying “I do not believe in a god” is the same as saying "I do not have a belief in a god. How is not having something that you cannot help but think is illogical to have an action? Is not having a belief that 2+2=5 an action?

 

[jmvizanko]

You are looking at it the wrong way. Heaven is being in union with God: Hell is seperation from God. People have the right to choose whether to accept or reject God.

First of all, people do not have the ability to choose what they think is true. Sure somebody could know there is a god and rebelliously reject them. But I have yet to meet an unbeliever that didn’t believe out of anything other than they just don’t think its true.

Secondly, God doesn’t give enough reason and evidence to convince most of the world that he is the one and only God. Most of the people in predominantly Muslim areas of the world aren’t rejecting your god any more than you are rejecting theirs; you just don’t see any reason to think their god is real and likewise for them.

[In fact, the only thing a truly loving God COULD do is give us the right to choose; the only other option would be to create obedient robots.

Well if all he wanted was beings that would praise him, why would this not be a better option, as then he wouldn’t send most of us to hell for arbitrarily not thinking the right religion is true? Would it not be better for the people in hell, (let alone the people in heaven that will apparently somehow not care about the people in hell), if nobody was created if it followed that many would go to hell forever? Did god really need beings to worship him so badly that he was willing to torture many forever? That’s pretty sick.
[/quote]

 

[Jelrak_TB]

I think we’ve been here before and exhausted the topic.

OK

Given the final judgment has not happened for thousands of years, I don’t think it can be said God is keen to do it.

Is he not judging every individual upon death?

As we’re on the topic of a search for truth, a lot of questions you ask seem rhetorical. Are they, or do you actually want someone to answer them?

I apologize if the questioning appears this way, but they are genuine.

God doesn’t ignore the consequences - He just doesn’t wade in all guns blazing when genuine, well meaning people make mistakes. What way would that be to offer correction or guidance? I see the action of God as a guiding hand as opposed to a sledgehammer. The very fact that we now know as much as we do about scripture and different approaches have developed is perhaps an indication God is not ignoring the consequences.

Most people with a deep believe would say at some point of their lives, they have encountered God and have been touched by Him. Such experiences are deeply spiritual, and deeply moving. Catholics also believe in Real Presence which is personal contact.

I would say we have an abundance of guidance. The bible is a book of guidance. The Holy Spirit is a guide, and God calls people to guide. If one wants to hear God speak and understand, one needs to listen. Guidance is an interesting thing. It is very often something we don’t want to hear, even though our common sense or better judgment prompts us to listen to it.

A single guide would be preferred to a plurality.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Then that will be an action they must be judged by. Why are you so concerned about something/a place you don’t even “logically” believe in?

I have not yet learned enough about the beliefs of others to form a pronounced opinion: a vital bit of evidence, detail, or clue might have been missed that might properly explain how others believe.

Further, as a member of a small minority, it appears logical to consider the possibility that I am simply mistaken. Indeed, such a discovery might even be preferable.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

That doesn’t mean we know how or what God thinks/ judges by. We know where he sets the bar but not how he’ll go around judging.

OK.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Because such beliefs are held as true by the majority of the people we live with, and it is good to know why someone thinks the way they do. A full understanding of someone’s beliefs and thought processes makes it easier to live with them in a society like ours. Especially when so many wish to base their votes on laws (such laws do affect me) on their beliefs that I may or may not share.

Though I am not the person to who you addressed the question I hope the answer I provided will help you understand.

Yes, these are other valid reasons that I equally consider important. Thank you.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

There is this aspect of it. There are individuals who could be described as a bit quirky or eccentric - not that there’s anything wrong with that - and such people aren’t that interested in the approval of others and communal acceptance. They don’t mind standing out from the crowd, are happy with their own company. Others are more conservative, and communal acceptance and adhering to social ‘norms’ is important to them. In my view, such people ‘balance’ each other in society, and wouldn’t it be a boring world if we were all the same. :yawn:

Generally speaking, communal acceptance, a sense of identity and ‘belonging,’ is an environment in which humans thrive best. That is the true purpose of living our faith, fulfillment of life, of which God is a part. The ultimate fulfillment is life in Heaven, but the purpose of faith is also about fulfillment in life now. So, it is an important aspect.

However, over-estimating communal acceptance leads to a life that lacks fulfillment. There is a time to toe the party line, and there is a time not to, and stand up for your principles. Not because you believe you are ‘right,’ (I actually hate that word and think it should be removed from the English dictionary) but out of a deep conviction those principles are just and true. This is why I mentioned the book ‘Crises of Conscience’ to you. It takes courage to stand by what one believes in the face of open hostility and ultimately, outright rejection of you as a person. That is what people of faith do, and one would have to question why given that going with the flow is the easier option.

OK. Thank you.

 

[Lochias]

A single guide would be preferred to a plurality.

Why?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Why?

Is it not simpler to follow the instructions of a single leader, as opposed to many, whose suggestions might differ?

 

[Lochias]

Is it not simpler to follow the instructions of a single leader, as opposed to many, whose suggestions might differ?

But there’s a well-defined hierarchy within the Catholic Church, and we believe that the deposit of faith and teachings handed down from Jesus Christ and the Apostles have been safe-guarded by the Holy Spirit. This belief is born out upon looking at Church history for the past 2000+ years and seeing that, while some others have chosen to split away, the Church has remained faithful and constant in all of her teachings (as well as growing in understanding of how such teachings and dogmas are applied today, even as those same teachings and dogmas don’t change).

This is the problem with asking so many hypothetical questions: After a while, one tends to lose sight of what’s happening and becomes lost in a forest of “what-ifs?” What if we step outside and a meteor falls on our heads? What if we eat a hamburger and choke to death on a small rock hidden in the hamburger meat? What if I go for a drive and a spaceship lands on my car? Those things will happen before the Catholic Church changes its teaching and morals and wisdom, yet people walk outside and eat hamburgers and go driving every day.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Again, you are looking at this solely from the vantage point of death being the end of an individual and suffering being the worst thing that can happen. The informed Christian can see past this secular view and recognize that suffering leads to love and death is simply moving on the next stage of existence

If you want to make progress, you need to trust in things bigger than yourself. I understand that you see death as the most horrible thing imaginable. But death is only a step towards heaven or hell.

Quote:
Well, you are right that those that try to interpret the bible on their own, even with laborious study, are likely to be wrong. The truth of salvation was past down to the church for it to be explained to the people… Scripture is an aid developed by the church for spreading that truth, but it can not be done in a vacuum.

Would you have God strike down every heretic and blasphemer? That would certainly limit their ability to repent. The fact is, the Catholic Church has the authority of its founder, Jesus Christ. The lutherans have the authority of their founder, Martin Luther. The Anglican’s have the authority of their founder, Henry VIII, the Mormon’s have the authority of their founder, Joseph Smith.

Quote:
6) you are judging God;s dealing with the midianites according to human standards, where suffering equates to evil and death is the end of existence, Actually God puts us in situations where we can grow in faith and love, even if we can’t see it at the time.

Some will react this way and some will see that their turning from God was the genesis of their problems and turn back. Was it not the same for the israelites, who God allowed to be exiled for 70 years. During that time, some turned back to God and were allowed to return.

Alternately, perhaps hardship is actually what is known as good by the divine? Is it not possible that, much as a truly great poet might require a source of suffering from which to draw in order to provide such deep prose, a soul in suffering is a joy for God to behold? If so, might not Heaven be a locale of great privation rather than abundance?

I think you are extending a little too far. Jesus described heaven as paradise from the cross.

Quote:
That is good but your situation is different from that of the time and can’t be judged in the same way.

If you open your heart to him, he will let you know what is expected.

Quote:
That’s fair, but remember Moses had credibility because of the miracles God did at his hands (the 10 plagues, the parting of the red sea, manna from heaven, etc.)

Jesus has the most credibility. - he rose from the dead. And don’t you realize that your country has far more than 620 laws.

Quote:
You aren’t debating the existence of God, you are searching for His nature. Start with the basic philosophy of God: the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. And then remember, if God created the universe, he defines what is right and wrong in that universe. The third point is the most telling and it says to me that your concern is how much you are willing to give to the creator that gave you everything. You seem to be looking for excuses not to love God.

This is so typical, isn’t it. you don’t get to choose whether God exists. He just IS. isn’t it a fact that you are weighing whether you want to believe? Whether it is worth it? And isn’t that simply put, a measure of what you think is important? That’s how people get to Hell. They decide they value things higher than a relationship with God. Most of them do it more subconsciously than you are doing it, however.

Quote:
Well, one thing seems clear is that so far you are judging God’s action based on a very secular view of what is important. Try to think about what is important to a God who can create anything he wants from nothing.

Jesus said that he calls all men to himself. he doesn’t wish for men to fall into hell, but he allows it in deference to their free will.

Quote:
What account are you referencing?

I’m not familiar with this account. Where did you get it?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Hell is more than a rumor, is it not? Many people are deterred from crimes without ever having seen a jail in real life or the inside of a gas chamber.

To me, Hell’s existence is as certain as any jail. it all depends on what you think is credible evidence.

Quote:
They value things more than heaven.

In the previous post, you were weighing whether following 620 rules was worth believing in God. So things like that.

Quote:
Its the selfless who make the best of any situation and the selfish who are never satisfied with what they have.

What point are you making? Are you saying its better to be selfish?

Quote:
I’m no psychologist but I would say that blaming every crime on mental deficiency is denying any sense of personal responsibility for our own decisions.

There are plenty of people in prison who are simply greedy and get caught stealing, etc. Do you really believe that those of below average IQ or substandard learning have a greater propensity to sin?

 

[paul_c]

The rich man is being purified before he can “enter” the Kingdom of God. Everyone before entering heaven must be purified either here on earth or in purgatory. I believe that is the Catholic teaching.

yes, it is the Catholic Teaching that everyone must be purified either on earth or in purgatory before entering heaven. But the rich man is in Hell, and can not enter heaven. that was why he was separated from lazarus and could not cross over,.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cath4Romney View Post
You are looking at it the wrong way. Heaven is being in union with God: Hell is seperation from God. People have the right to choose whether to accept or reject God.

So you deny that humans have the ability to reason and come to their own conclusions? I think you are on pretty shaky ground on this one.

Secondly, God doesn’t give enough reason and evidence to convince most of the world that he is the one and only God. Most of the people in predominantly Muslim areas of the world aren’t rejecting your god any more than you are rejecting theirs; you just don’t see any reason to think their god is real and likewise for them.

Who are you to speak for others? How do you know what they think about and how much they’ve explored other faiths? Just because you don’t do it, doesn’t mean that others don’t

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cath4Romney View Post
[In fact, the only thing a truly loving God COULD do is give us the right to choose; the only other option would be to create obedient robots.

You have many, many misconceptions expressed here. God doesn’t need our praise. WE need to praise God for ourselves because only in recognizing our true being can we be fulfilled and happy. Praising God is recognizing our relative roles and this is the first step in self awareness. The people in heaven recognize that the people in hell are getting exactly what they asked for - separation from God

---

Religious faith is arbitrary. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods people believe in, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Really. Such a pithy quote with so much misunderstanding behind it. There is one god, creator of heaven and earth, whose existence can be ascertained by observing the universe.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Imcatholic7]

Hell is just using the concept that consequences must come after actions. It is inevitable. Good after good and bad after bad. I think heaven and hell is as simple as that. Hope it helps. God bless.

 

[minkymurph]

Saying “I do not believe in a god” is the same as saying "I do not have a belief in a god. How is not having something that you cannot help but think is illogical to have an action? Is not having a belief that 2+2=5 an action?

Apologies for jumping in, I know your post is not addressed to me.

There are two flaws I see in your line of argument.

In the first instance, on what grounds could we conclude someone ‘cannot help’ something - not just belief in God, but anything? What element is involved in ‘not being able to help’ something? To suggest someone ‘cannot help’ something, is to suggest they have no control over their thought or action. Is it the case that atheists have no control over whether or not they believe in God? If so, why have they no control over this belief? Further to this, does this line of thought the theist has greater control over what they believe? If so, why?

I would argue what we believe is something we can control. If we could not, then we are not responsible for anything we believe. What is the ‘cannot help’ argument based on? Is it based on the fact it has been irrevocably proven God does not exist? If it has, then you may have an argument. It can be stated it has been irrevocably proven the human heart has 4 chambers. Therefore, we ‘cannot help’ but believe the heart has 4 chambers, and to believe the heart has 10 chambers would be illogical.

However, is it not fair to say the atheist rejects the existence of God on the balance of probability rather than irrevocable proof? In addition, is it not the case that atheist reject the existence of God, on the basis that evidence for the existence of God cannot, in their view, be classified as evidence? In which case, it can be argued to reject evidence as evidence, and on that basis categorize it as unsatisfactory ‘proof,’ involves a conscious decision.

In the second instance, not having a belief ‘2 + 2 = 5’ does involve action. It involves the action of adding the numbers, knowing how to recognize numbers, knowing what the ‘+’ and ‘=’ signs are intended to denote, knowing why the answer ‘5’ would be wrong, and knowing the person who wrote the equation intended the correct answer to be ‘4.’ Further to this, I bet some clever mathematician could come with a explanation why, on occasion, ‘2 + 2’ may actually equal 5, because there are so many things you can do with numbers.

To illustrate - what is the answer to the equation below?

2 + 5 x 7 = ?

I’ve used this because I find the black and white ‘2 + 2’ approach problematic, as it is a rare occasion when life it that simple. Life does not always add ‘brackets’ to ‘equations’ to ensure we come up with an irrevocable answer.

Is it fair to say that in the absence of there are two answers to this, both of which could be equally correct? Can we conclude one ‘cannot help’ which answer one believes if correct?Is it fair to say one could could place brackets in this equation where one wants depending on what one wants the answer to be? Can we conclude one ‘cannot help’ where one would place the brackets, and have no choice in determining where they would go?

 

[je333]

yes, it is the Catholic Teaching that everyone must be purified either on earth or in purgatory before entering heaven. But the rich man is in Hell, and can not enter heaven. that was why he was separated from lazarus and could not cross over,.

The rich man is in Hell? Oh ouch!!! Well, I guess I need to refresh my bible studies. Correct me if I’m wrong but before Jesus came to save us, most people who died were in “Hell.” Jesus descended to hell when he died to save and redeemed everyone except for Satan. Satan was the only one in Hell at that moment. Jesus rose again on the third day taken with him everyone except for Satan and opened Heaven. Purgatory was created to purify everyone before entering heaven. This is what I got out of my RCIA class. Is this teaching correct?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

But there’s a well-defined hierarchy within the Catholic Church, and we believe that the deposit of faith and teachings handed down from Jesus Christ and the Apostles have been safe-guarded by the Holy Spirit. This belief is born out upon looking at Church history for the past 2000+ years and seeing that, while some others have chosen to split away, the Church has remained faithful and constant in all of her teachings (as well as growing in understanding of how such teachings and dogmas are applied today, even as those same teachings and dogmas don’t change).

Is it not the position of the Mormon Church that the original message of Jesus was corrupted fairly early on and so their establishment merely returns Christianity to its proper roots?

Do not the Orthodox claim that the Roman Rite corrupted the original intent of Episcopal equality and so consider their establishment to carry on in the proper original spirit of Jesus’ message?

Do not the Muslims consider that, as with Judaism, God has relinquished his blessings from Christianity and bestowed it upon them?

So is it understandable why one might feel at times lost, even among only the four claims so far discussed?

This is the problem with asking so many hypothetical questions: After a while, one tends to lose sight of what’s happening and becomes lost in a forest of “what-ifs?” What if we step outside and a meteor falls on our heads? What if we eat a hamburger and choke to death on a small rock hidden in the hamburger meat? What if I go for a drive and a spaceship lands on my car? Those things will happen before the Catholic Church changes its teaching and morals and wisdom, yet people walk outside and eat hamburgers and go driving every day.

If one might be told every day that God smites his enemies with meteors, would it truly be frivolous to occasionally look to the sky to gauge one’s proper standing?

 

[CarolVP]

The rich man is in Hell? Oh ouch!!! Well, I guess I need to refresh my bible studies. Correct me if I’m wrong but before Jesus came to save us, most people who died were in “Hell.” Jesus descended to hell when he died to save and redeemed everyone except for Satan. Satan was the only one in Hell at that moment. Jesus rose again on the third day taken with him everyone except for Satan and opened Heaven. Purgatory was created to purify everyone before entering heaven. This is what I got out of my RCIA class. Is this teaching correct?

Mmmm… Before Jesus died and rose again, those who had died in God’s friendship (i.e. the righteous ones) were deserving of Heaven, but could not have the Beatific Vision. We say that the “Gates of Heaven were closed”. These righteous ones were fully worthy of Heaven, but were unable to enter. They were in a state of natural happiness, also called the Limbo of the Fathers, I believe.

Others were in Hell - the state of eternal separation from God, while, of course, still others may have been in a state of purification still (Purgatory).

Once the Redemption had taken place, all those worthy of Heaven were admitted to the Beatific Vision - the Presence of God Himself. They were in Heaven.

Those who had died totally rejecting God’s Laws were in Hell - the eternal death of total separation from God, deliberately chosen.

There is much confusion because of the different understandings of the words Hell (or Sheol?). The Old Testament usage usually meant ‘place of the dead’. Souls in the ‘place of the dead’ were awaiting Christ’s Redemptive Sacrifice. This did not mean that souls worthy of eternal separation from God were also, then, welcomed into Heaven. This opposes reason. Evil deeds, un-repented, deserve justice.

I have never heard that all who died before Christ were welcomed into Heaven, but only the righteous ones.