Explain This - Non Catholics?

[jimmy85]

openmindedness is an advise to the both of us. i believe miracle could happen, but i dont think it did yet. at least not that I know of. and i have examined a lot of so called miracles from many different religions. so far its either bogus or baseless.

well I respect your own opinions and believes.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

cant prove what?

God created the laws of physics, i find it incredible that he would violate it just to satisfy one loser monk.

That God created this place with all it’s life,… what monk ?

i’m just criticizing the so called ‘miracles’ presented in this thread.
with these ‘miracles’, you **only have to prove **that something impossible really did happen.

Disprove them then.

are the incorruptibles impossible? not at all. it can happen at the right natural conditions.

Miracles are outside the natural, they’re supernatural.

is the flesh host impossible? not at all, it could have been planted using sleight of hand.

Yes and by your reasoning so could the planet earth.

is the shroud of turin impossible? not at all, it could have been produced by an artist using human blood.

It has been tried, but it can’t be done.

The thread is called “Explain This - Non Catholics?”. I have.

Yes and your trying to.

I think he was a winner. As a visionary he was successful in sparking a revolution that diversied christianity which partly became a factor in making christians appreciate the value of religious freedom. Thanks to religious freedom I was able to proudly tell my catholic relatives that I am no longer a christian. No fear.

Religious freedom is just another word for liberalism, so much for Martin for bringing the prayer of Jesus to realization, "That they might be one Father as You and I are One ".

 

[AgnosTheist]

That God created this place with all it’s life,… what monk ?

The Basilian Monk in the Lanciano event.

Disprove them then.

The Shroud of Turin wasnt formally declared by the vatican as a miracle. The incorruptibles are scientifically possible which is why it happens in other cultures and religions as well. The host flesh cannot be proven or disproven, for the supposed miracle (the transmutation of host into flesh) happened some 1300 years ago. The host flesh that you see today is nothing more than a byproduct. Can be the result of a miracle or a simple switcheroo. No way to know for certain. I settle with the switcheroo since no miracle was ever certified enough. The radiation picture…i still have to check it out.

Religious freedom is just another word for liberalism, so much for Martin for bringing the prayer of Jesus to realization, "That they might be one Father as You and I are One ".

“they might”, huh? too bad, christianity was diverse from the very beginning. even the apostles debunked each other…like when paul exposed peter’s hypocrisy. when there was too much chaos because of intense roman persecution. some believed jesus was god. some thought he was a prophet. some a rabbi. some believed in a dual god. some were gnostics. chaos. uncertainty.

 

[jimmy85]

The Shroud of Turin wasnt formally declared by the vatican as a miracle. The incorruptibles are scientifically possible which is why it happens in other cultures and religions as well. The host flesh cannot be proven or disproven, for the supposed miracle (the transmutation of host into flesh) happened some 1300 years ago. The host flesh that you see today is nothing more than a byproduct. Can be the result of a miracle or a simple switcheroo. No way to know for certain. I settle with the switcheroo since no miracle was ever certified enough. The radiation picture…i still have to check it out.

I dont think you are able to believe all that you wrote above.

btw the church dosent request the faithfull to believe in relics becuase faith is not about relics .

www1.jsc.nasa.gov/er/seh/shroud.html

that is a website of the Nasa.
btw Do you know that the Nasa exist or do I have to prove it?

anyway it mentions in thre that they made experiemtns including one in which they made a 3d image/sculture of the person of the shroud with radiation.

well im eager to know what conclution you will come up with, you do have alot of imagination.

 

[AgnosTheist]

www1.jsc.nasa.gov/er/seh/shroud.html

that is a website of the Nasa.
btw Do you know that the Nasa exist or do I have to prove it?

oh its from nasa alright. i dont think anyone could get away with faking a ‘nasa.gov’ domain name. However that article is very old (1977), and inconclusive. it ends in a cliffhanger:

*Lynn and Lorre expect to provide a “quick look” report of their findings soon after the Turin exhibition. Both men speak of the event with expectation, still in awe of witnessing how technology is unlocking closed doors of history. *

What happened after that? what did they find?

carbon testing held in 1988 by 3 independent science teams all got the same result that the shroud is merely as old as the middle ages.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin

 

[jimmy85]

oh its from nasa alright. i dont think anyone could get away with faking a ‘nasa.gov’ domain name. However that article is very old (1977), and inconclusive. it ends in a cliffhanger:

*Lynn and Lorre expect to provide a “quick look” report of their findings soon after the Turin exhibition. Both men speak of the event with expectation, still in awe of witnessing how technology is unlocking closed doors of history. *

What happened after that? what did they find?

carbon testing held in 1988 by 3 independent science teams all got the same result that the shroud is merely as old as the middle ages.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin

those tests were invalided because there was a bacteria that a mexican syndologist found. this type of bacteria tend to alter the age of the carbon 14 experiments. this was accepted by everyone and all the sydondologys involved in this issue.
I have the info in spanish.

besides the 3d experiemtns were done long ago perhaps in the 90s.

that carbon 14 examn was the only argument for skeptics however it have been totaly invalidaded nowadays.
and also you msut admit that the Nasa did made a 3d sculture of the man in the shroud.
then how could this be done by a medieval painter?

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

“they might”, huh? too bad,

Don’t mock, it will eventually be realised, either by the easy way or the hard way,

christianity was diverse from the very beginning. even the apostles debunked each other…like when paul exposed peter’s hypocrisy. when there was too much chaos because of intense roman persecution.

Mankind has been diverse since the Garden of Eden.

And Peter spoke not Paul, when Peter spoke the assembly fell silent, case closed.

The Pope is the Key-holder of the Catholic Church until the Master returns.

Where sin coexists with goodness, then there will always be problems, darkness and light don’t get on too well together.

There was always jockeying for position, thats why we need one Chair, the Chair of Peter.

There was chaos since the garden of Eden, when Cane murdered his brother, and more-so since their disobedient parents.

some believed Jesus was god.

And were they wrong ? Read John 14:8 oh I usually capitalize God to identify Him from false gods.

some thought he was a prophet. some a rabbi. some believed in a dual god. some were Gnostic’s. chaos. uncertainty.

How could they know, certain things weren’t revealed, even to the Apostles, but the Holy Spirit changed them after Pentecost.

But like today there are some that don’t wish to follow.

There is chaos in everyday life, marriages, work, relationships, there will always be chaos. where sin abounds.

And now back to said topic.

And how do you explain the image on Our Lady of Guadalupe ? after is it 450 years it is still intact.

The Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Science

1.     The image to this date, cannot be explained by science.

2.     The image shows no sign of deterioration after 450 years!
        The tilma or cloak of Saint Juan Diego on which the image of Our Lady has 
         been imprinted, is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey
         cactus. **This fiber disintegrates within 20-60 years!  **3.         There is no under sketch, no sizing and no protective over-varnish on the 
         image.

3.   **  Microscopic examination revealed that there were no brush strokes.**

4.     **The image seems to increase in size and change colors due to an unknown 
        property of the surface and substance of which it is made**.

5.    ** According to Kodak of Mexico, the image is smooth and feels like a      
        modern day photograph.  (Produced 300 years before the invention of 
        photography.)**

6.    *** The image has consistently defied exact reproduction, whether by brush or 
        camera.***

7.     Several images can be seen reflected in the eyes of the Virgin. It is   
        believed to be the images of Juan Diego, Bishop Juan de Zummaraga, Juan   
        Gonzales, the interpreter and others.

8.     The distortion and place of the images are identical to what is produced in 
        the normal eye which is impossible to obtain on a flat surface.

9.   The stars on Our Lady's Mantle coincide with the constellations in the sky on 
       December 12, 1531.** All who have scientifically examined the image of Our
       Lady over the centuries confess that its properties are absolutely unique 
       and so inexplicable in human terms that the image can only be supernatural**!

 

[jimmy85]

however the above mentioned is not the only prove, also some experiemtns ahve confirmed that the person in teh shroud had coins in his eyes, this was an old habit that peopel did to the deaseced , the coin is form the first century of the Cesar.

It has pollen from palestine of the 1st century taht already have been extinguished.

historicaly there is a painting of one christian emperor that was paitned arround the 10 centurys, he was resiving the shroud in cosntantinopla , and there are several documents that prove as well that the shroud is not a medieval forgery but that it predates the medieval period.

 

[jimmy85]

Our Lady of Guadalupe ? after is it 450 years it is still intact.

The Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Science

1.     The image to this date, cannot be explained by science.

2.     The image shows no sign of deterioration after 450 years!
        The tilma or cloak of Saint Juan Diego on which the image of Our Lady has 
         been imprinted, is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey
         cactus. **This fiber disintegrates within 20-60 years!  **3.         There is no under sketch, no sizing and no protective over-varnish on the 
         image.

3.   **  Microscopic examination revealed that there were no brush strokes.**

4.     **The image seems to increase in size and change colors due to an unknown 
        property of the surface and substance of which it is made**.

5.    ** According to Kodak of Mexico, the image is smooth and feels like a      
        modern day photograph.  (Produced 300 years before the invention of 
        photography.)**

6.    *** The image has consistently defied exact reproduction, whether by brush or 
        camera.***

7.     Several images can be seen reflected in the eyes of the Virgin. It is   
        believed to be the images of Juan Diego, Bishop Juan de Zummaraga, Juan   
        Gonzales, the interpreter and others.

8.     The distortion and place of the images are identical to what is produced in 
        the normal eye which is impossible to obtain on a flat surface.

9.   The stars on Our Lady's Mantle coincide with the constellations in the sky on 
       December 12, 1531.** All who have scientifically examined the image of Our
       Lady over the centuries confess that its properties are absolutely unique 
       and so inexplicable in human terms that the image can only be supernatural**!

yep, scientists have said that the image of our lady of Guadalupe was made of a substance that is not known in this world. it is not chemical nor vegetal nor anything already known.

Our lady of Guadalupe was the one that converted the whole continent of latin america to christianism.
the natives didint have a written language, however the image of the virgin of Guadalupe was dressed in a simbolical way in which the natives were able to understand by their own primitive language that from her the savior of the world was going to be born.
all this happened in their own unkown and simbolical language, that was only known by them.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And Peter spoke not Paul, when Peter spoke the assembly fell silent, case closed.

“*When Peter came to Antioch I directly withstood him, because he was clearly in the wrong.” *Galatians 2:11

Looks like Paul bossed over Peter in that particular event.

And now back to said topic.

And how do you explain the image on Our Lady of Guadalupe ? after is it 450 years it is still intact.

The painting appears to have been tampered with. As a result “Guillermo Schulenburg, the Basílica’s abbot for over 30 years, declared in 1996 Juan Diego as a symbol and myth, a constructed character made to conquer the hearts of the native people and redirect their religious allegiance to Christianity and the Vatican”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

hear-says and hoaxes, my friend. miracles of legend & history dont make any sense. For if God really cared about inspiring peope with miracles, then there is no better time for showing one than this very day and age for all the cameras to record for the world to see.

 

[AgnosTheist]

those tests were invalided because there was a bacteria that a mexican syndologist found. this type of bacteria tend to alter the age of the carbon 14 experiments. this was accepted by everyone and all the sydondologys involved in this issue.
I have the info in spanish.

besides the 3d experiemtns were done long ago perhaps in the 90s.

that carbon 14 examn was the only argument for skeptics however it have been totaly invalidaded nowadays.
and also you msut admit that the Nasa did made a 3d sculture of the man in the shroud.
then how could this be done by a medieval painter?

you have to do better than that. source?

 

[jimmy85]

“*When Peter came to Antioch I directly withstood him, because he was clearly in the wrong.” *Galatians 2:11

Looks like Paul bossed over Peter in that particular event.

The painting appears to have been tampered with. As a result “Guillermo Schulenburg, the Basílica’s abbot for over 30 years, declared in 1996 Juan Diego as a symbol and myth, a constructed character made to conquer the hearts of the native people and redirect their religious allegiance to Christianity and the Vatican”

you focus entirely in one persson’s opinion rather than in proves lol

 

[AgnosTheist]

you focus entirely in one persson’s opinion rather than in proves lol

Its your abbot, not mine. Makes sense, in the olden days Christians resorted to all sorts of foul play to convert the heathens. From threats, to deceptions, to rewards. Sure fooled the mexicans. They should have played the same trick on the Moslems.

 

[jimmy85]

you have to do better than that. source?

spiritusmedia.org/sabana_santa/index_sabana.htm

It is in spanish, however here are some picture of the coin of the first century and of the polen grains. you can watch more picture of the experiments in that webpage above even if u dunno spanish.
thats all I can do right now for you man.

 

[jimmy85]

Its your abbot, not mine. Makes sense, in the olden days Christians resorted to all sorts of foul play to convert the heathens. From threats, to deceptions, to rewards. Sure fooled the mexicans. They should have played the same trick on the Moslems.

Luther was also catholic and he denied the church.
yep lol the cahtolic church decives many people by making dirty trick in order to convert people, they even made an image with a substance that is unknown to modern science lol

 

[jimmy85]

Its your abbot, not mine. Makes sense, in the olden days Christians resorted to all sorts of foul play to convert the heathens. From threats, to deceptions, to rewards. Sure fooled the mexicans. They should have played the same trick on the Moslems.

Besides u should know that the missionarys didnt want to expose the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the natives becuase they inicialy had Fear that the natives could get closer to idolatry. so that proves that they didnt made up all that.

 

[SFLCatholic]

That is why I referred to inspired Scripture, not the Council of Trent or the Trent Catechism which disagree with our Lord.

…

But if you refer to inspired Scripture for your Faith, then why have you fallen away from the One True Church established by Jesus?

Its very clear from all your posts that you do not follow the Word of God in its entirety. Otherwise you wouldn’t have such anger towards that which you left behind.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

“*When Peter came to Antioch I directly withstood him, because he was clearly in the wrong.” *Galatians 2:11

Looks like Paul bossed over Peter in that particular event.

Well when Paul had a problem he went to others to get it sorted out, in the end they couldn’t sort it, Peter stood up, and Peter spoke, the whole assembly fell silent, case closed, Paul silent.

The painting appears to have been tampered with. As a result “Guillermo Schulenburg, the Basílica’s abbot for over 30 years, declared in 1996 Juan Diego as a symbol and myth, a constructed character made to conquer the hearts of the native people and redirect their religious allegiance to Christianity and the Vatican”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

Appears ? lol very sound reasoning if I may say so Dr Watson.

hear-says and hoaxes, my friend. miracles of legend & history dont make any sense. For if God really cared about inspiring peope with miracles, then there is no better time for showing one than this very day and age for all the cameras to record for the world to see.

It has happened in the past, it is happening now, but what would it matter since photographic evidence you don’t believe.

You don’t have an answer to the material that is used in Our Lady of Guadalupe.

You don’t have an answer to why there is an image of people standing reflected in the Virgins eyes.

You remind me of the rich man who died asking that a warning be sent to his brothers…

Luke 16:31 31 **And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead. **

You also said you believe in a creator based on what you see around you, but if I didn’t believe in God I wouldn’t think your explanation a very good one.

We have shown you what science can’t explain, but it doesn’t really matter what we post.

The image is of a pregnant Mary, when a doctor placed a stethoscope on the image she heard a heart beat, explain that ?

Oh haven’t you heard about the strange light coming from the image ever since Mexico approved abortion, in the shape of I think a baby ?

Anyway nothing would ever make you believe, as Abraham said to Lazarus, I’m neither disappointed or surprised, they walked away from Jesus too, it won’t be any better for the rest of us.

But if you refer to inspired Scripture for your Faith, then why have you fallen away from the One True Church established by Jesus?

Its very clear from all your posts that you do not follow the Word of God in its entirety. Otherwise you wouldn’t have such anger towards that which you left behind.

Very true.

 

[AgnosTheist]

cahtolic church decives many people by making dirty trick in order to convert people

And thats when the RCC was in a playful mood. in not so good moods it was a matter of “CONVERT OR DIE”. Foul play, my friend. Foul play.

a substance that is unknown to modern science lol

big deal. a lot of substances out there are still unknown to modern science. we still have a lot to learn. swim the darkest seas. explore the deepest recesses of the earth. reach the stars. peer into quarks. understand the brain.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

big deal. a lot of substances out there are still unknown to modern science. we still have a lot to learn. swim the darkest seas. explore the deepest recesses of the earth. reach the stars. peer into quarks. understand the brain.

Yes of course Juan Diego dived to the depths to recover an unknown substance to deceive the world, even though his brain would have been crushed into mince meat if he was able to get down that far with the water pressure pushing him back up again.

Even had the hindsight to paint images in the eyes of the Virgin in case those pesky scientists think of that. well done Juan, you thought of everything.

Your just a hardhearted unbeliever who believes in a higher power, only thing is you can’t prove to me or show me the higher power.