M
Mary_Margaret_1
Guest
Thanks this is a great answer!
- Status
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
I wanted to say something about TV and death. And not just TV but books and movies, generally.
It’s almost like EVERYONE is an atheist because they portray death as THE VERY WORST POSSIBLE THING THAT CAN EVER HAPPEN.
Grief is a painful thing. Yet, grief is a testament to love.
But we know life is eternal, we know that Christ paid a price so that we could live with Him in joy forever. Death is not a bad thing, even though killing people is. It’s a gateway.
On TV people are always doing bad things because someone says, “If you don’t I’ll kill you!” There are whole movies about people going to extremes to save a life and we have a culture of artificially extending life just because we are working so hard to avoid death.
And I know this should be another topic, but, if we are talking about death with children, I really wish we would be more positive about it. Not make it attractive, but make it what it is: a stage we go through like the other stages of life. And focus on comforting the bereaved instead of fearing the journey.
It’s almost like EVERYONE is an atheist because they portray death as THE VERY WORST POSSIBLE THING THAT CAN EVER HAPPEN.
Grief is a painful thing. Yet, grief is a testament to love.
But we know life is eternal, we know that Christ paid a price so that we could live with Him in joy forever. Death is not a bad thing, even though killing people is. It’s a gateway.
On TV people are always doing bad things because someone says, “If you don’t I’ll kill you!” There are whole movies about people going to extremes to save a life and we have a culture of artificially extending life just because we are working so hard to avoid death.
And I know this should be another topic, but, if we are talking about death with children, I really wish we would be more positive about it. Not make it attractive, but make it what it is: a stage we go through like the other stages of life. And focus on comforting the bereaved instead of fearing the journey.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
What vocation, if I may ask? Why do you need to know how to explain death to children, in order to discern a vocation?
M
Mary_Margaret_1
Guest
I mean my vocation as either a religious, a single person, or as a married person with kids! One of the barriers I perceive to my becoming a mother is the possibilty that my kids would reject God and not end up with Him forever.What vocation, if I may ask? Why do you need to know how to explain death to children, in order to discern a vocation?
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Death temporarily separates the body and the soul, but people are not beings that are “in” a body. We are incarnated creatures, and in that regard profoundly different from the angels. Both our body and our soul experience the process of death, albeit differently. We do, after all, believe that both our bodies and our souls will rise again.
Neither is death a great thing. Death is defeated by the Resurrection, but death is still the enemy.
**CCC 1017 **“We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).
CCC 1018 As a consequence of original sin, man must suffer “bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” (GS § 18).
**CCC 1019 **Jesus, the Son of God, freely suffered death for us in complete and free submission to the will of God, his Father. By his death he has conquered death, and so opened the possibility of salvation to all men.
*“For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.” *1 Cor. 15:25-28
Also, be careful about the teaching “they have parties in Heaven when we pass to welcome us.” True, but there is still the business of being made fit for Heaven, that “happy trial”, which is nevertheless still a trial and still greatly assisted if the Church Militant remember to pray for our souls.
Again, I think the habit of praying for the dead is a good way to help children know that the dead are not forgotten and that we don’t believe them gone forever. At our house, when we pray for those who have died, we often add, “And may those who have joined the saints intercede for us now, that we may all be joined forever with You in Heaven.” Teaching about the communion of saints by how we pray is a beautiful and important part of teaching about death.
Do not get me wrong: Death is the ultimate example of how God can transform the worst thing in the world and make it into the best thing in the world. I don’t mean to teach children to fear death, either. I’m not quibbling with what you are saying so much as how it can come across incompletely, if we are not careful. We have a great truth to teach, and should be careful we do not substitute a sugared-up version of it.
J
jmcrae
Guest
If you became a mother, it would be their choice to make.
By not allowing them to come into existence, they will for certain never get to be with God - not even at their moment of creation.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
It’s going to come across incompletely any time we talk to children. It should. What can we convey to them as very small ones? That’s all we should tell them. It’s like sex: you don’t need some big conversation, just answer each question, simply, as it comes up and they will accumulate all over time.
As for what you wrote: No, we do not “experience death.” We leave, move on, go elsewhere. We don’t die. Ever. No one dies. We experience change. And Purgatory is so much better than this place, you’ll think it is heaven.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Give them to God, pray for them daily, and trust that God knows what He is doing. Let them see you live in the joy of His love, and they will follow.
BUT - don’t be a mom if you don’t feel called to it. I think you are very wise to take the choice seriously.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
When your earthly life ends, you’ve experienced death. Your life is changed, not ended, yes, but the earthly phase is ended for good. Besides, your body is going to rise again, too.
***CCC 1013 **Death is the end of man’s earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When “the single course of our earthly life” is completed,584 we shall not return to other earthly lives: "It is appointed for men to die once."585 There is no “reincarnation” after death.
CCC 1014 The Church encourages us to prepare ourselves for the hour of our death. In the litany of the saints, for instance, she has us pray: “From a sudden and unforeseen death, deliver us, O Lord”;586 to ask the Mother of God to intercede for us “at the hour of our death” in the Hail Mary; and to entrust ourselves to St. Joseph, the patron of a happy death.
Every action of yours, every thought, should be those of one who expects to die before the day is out. Death would have no great terrors for you if you had a quiet conscience … Then why not keep clear of sin instead of running away from death? If you aren’t fit to face death today, it’s very unlikely you will be tomorrow …587
Praised are you, my Lord, for our sister bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.
Woe on those who will die in mortal sin!
Blessed are they who will be found in your most holy will,
for the second death will not harm them.588*
No, there don’t need to be big conversations. What we do say does need to be the truth. When the Church says, “It is appointed for men to die once”, we ought not say “no one dies.” Yes, we do. Death isn’t the nihilistic end that those with no faith think it is, but death is real, and unless we’re among those chosen to be here for the Second Coming, we’re all going to go through it. I’d call that an “experience”.
That’s just it: some people (I do not mean you) do not answer the question when it comes up. Rather, they do everything possible to avoid the questions. They don’t take children around people who are going to die, they don’t talk about people who have died, they don’t talk about pets that have died, they don’t take children to funerals, they don’t teach children to pray for the dead. They avoid avoid avoid, they say “they are not emotionally ready” and then when someone dies who is so close to the child that death can no longer be hidden, the poor child is smacked with some of the most difficult realities of death with no preparation at all. Then they talk about the dead going straight to Heaven as if there is no need for a person to prepare himself or herself for death at all. That’s easier to think about, but it isn’t true.
My children have had to go through having those very close to them die, and I was glad to have talked to them about it. We did leave truths beyond their ability to process for later, but we didn’t avoid the topic. That is important.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Well, maybe this is a semantic misunderstanding, but if you were born in a submarine at the bottom of the ocean and lived there until adulthood when the sub surfaced and you walked out into open sky and onto land, never to return to the sub again, would you call that experiencing death? As in: death is defined as going from one life to the next? If you think so, then I’ll agree.
I don’t define it that way. We leave our bodies. I don’t think moving from one way of living to another is experiencing death.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Sorry, but I don’t think the analogy is apt. We are beings both physical and immortal, not angels who take a tour of duty in a body that we’ll never see again. Catholics believe in the literal resurrection of the body. We are meant to have both body and soul, and save sin we would not go through death, but as it is, we do. Without sin, we would have lived with God for eternity in our bodies without dying. This whole business of our bodies and souls being separated and waiting for resurrection, this whole business of needing Purgatory, this was not meant to be. It came about because of sin. So yes, we really experience death, an experience brought about because of sin, an experience that will separate our bodies and souls until our resurrection. Death truly is an enemy.
Realize that Our Lord was in the tomb three days and is now in a resurrected body. At the conclusion of her earthly life, Our Lady was assumed to Heaven body and soul (catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption). That is the way we are meant to be in Heaven…with God in our own incorruptible bodies. So yes, those who are separated from their bodies are experiencing death.
*“Perish the thought that the omnipotence of the Creator is unable, for the raising of our bodies and for the restoring of them to life, to recall all [their] parts, which were consumed by beasts or by fire, or which disintegrated into dust or ashes, or were melted away into a fluid, or were evaporated away in vapors” (The City of God 22:20:1 [A.D. 419]).
“God, the wonderful and inexpressible Artisan, will, with a wonderful and inexpressible speed, restore our flesh from the whole of the material of which it was constituted, and it will make no difference to its reconstruction whether hairs go back to hairs and nails go back to nails, or whatever of these had perished be changed to flesh and be assigned to other parts of the body, while the providence of the Artisan will take care that nothing unseemly result” (Handbook of Faith, Hope, and Charity 23:89 [A.D. 421]). *
–Augustine of Hippo, from the Catholic Answers tract catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body
L
Litcrit
Guest
Amen! It’s becoming almost silly to be pointing out that we teach the literal resurrection of our bodies. Platonism runs deep in our culture and we tend to think of our bodies as lower than the real us and somehow unworthy of us. But the separation of death only happens in time, not in eternity, and we should also remember that, similarly to Our Lord and Our Lady, as you have noted, many saints don’t exactly leave their bodies behind to rot away - in some miraculous way, some saints’ incorruptible bodies are clearly still connected to their souls and are clearly waiting for their return.
V
vera_dicere
Guest
I grew up on a farm. I knew all about death from as far back as I can remember.
With heaven and hell I simply got the “Bad people go to hell, good people go to Heaven”. I was too young and too immature to ask the obvious question of “what does “good” mean?”
But if they do, tell them about the faith, about being Christian, about how accepting Jesus and his instructions make us good.
I was never scared of death. I think people are generally more affraid of the manner of death as opposed to death itself.
We underestimate kids and their tolerance of death. Elizabeth Kulber Ross [is that spelt correctly?] made that observation.
With heaven and hell I simply got the “Bad people go to hell, good people go to Heaven”. I was too young and too immature to ask the obvious question of “what does “good” mean?”
But if they do, tell them about the faith, about being Christian, about how accepting Jesus and his instructions make us good.
I was never scared of death. I think people are generally more affraid of the manner of death as opposed to death itself.
We underestimate kids and their tolerance of death. Elizabeth Kulber Ross [is that spelt correctly?] made that observation.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Jesus conquered death, we do not experience that. Whatever bodily resurrection is, we leave the bodies we have when we pass, and so, cannot experience anything.
1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.
1005 To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must “be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” In that “departure” which is death the soul is separated from the body. It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead.
Bodies die because we leave them, not the other way around.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
I was lapsed when I got pregnant with my first son but I would not have thought of this as my first concern when considering having children! You have to make the babies, grow them up, and teach them to be Catholics so they DON’T reject God. Also, we all have free will and kids can do all sorts of stupid stuff that they later regret. Some never return, it is very sad but we are not going to lose our own salvation if our kids reject God or their faith.
One step at a time.
T
ThyKingdomCome
Guest
Mary_Margaret, I understand you’re wanting to think through some of those things ahead of time. I am a planner, and “one step at a time” doesn’t work very well for me. I want to know that after the next step there isn’t a cliff.
Here’s what I’ll say to you. There is no guarantee that your children will love God and hold on to your faith. After all, they will have the same free will that you and I have, and that Adam and Eve had. But if you raise them in their faith well, you will make it much, much more likely that they will accept Him and live good Catholic lives. Increasing the odds is the best we can do. But we shouldn’t let that fear of uncertainty, or the possibility of them freely choosing to reject God be a deciding factor. Instead, we have to ask God, “what do you want FOR ME?” If his will for you is to get married and become a mother, the spiritual risks that your children will have are not a good enough reason for you not to follow His Will. If His Will for you is to become a sister or a nun, you will discern that whether or not you can picture how you will teach your children to love their faith. KWIM? In your discernment process, focus especially on God’s will for you.
However, I do appreciate the thinking ahead. It is reasonable to wonder about specific dilemmas of parenting. And it is good to research them and to have some specific ideas about how to approach them. But as I said in my first post, the most important part of explaining death to your children is giving them a foundation of faith. This will be true of all parenting dilemmas. It doesn’t matter how good your explanation of death is. If you give that explanation to a child who does not have a lifetime of prayer and understanding of himself as a child of God, etc. in his background, that explanation is going to fall short. Without the background of a good education in your faith, death, is going to be much more scary, and more confusing and meaningless. But WITH a strong foundation of faith, even if you get your words a little wrong, and even if you don’t always know the right thing to say, your kids are going to be ok. THEIR faith will help them. Same for all sorts of life decisions. Really the best way to deal with death is for the child to experience life as a child of God, and for the child to know his place in the world, and in the communion of saints. The other stuff will follow. In fact, with a good catechetical program like Faith and Life, and the Baltimore Catechism, the other stuff will be included - so that you don’t have to make up the answers on your own, but simply expand on (and refer back to) these materials.
Here’s what I’ll say to you. There is no guarantee that your children will love God and hold on to your faith. After all, they will have the same free will that you and I have, and that Adam and Eve had. But if you raise them in their faith well, you will make it much, much more likely that they will accept Him and live good Catholic lives. Increasing the odds is the best we can do. But we shouldn’t let that fear of uncertainty, or the possibility of them freely choosing to reject God be a deciding factor. Instead, we have to ask God, “what do you want FOR ME?” If his will for you is to get married and become a mother, the spiritual risks that your children will have are not a good enough reason for you not to follow His Will. If His Will for you is to become a sister or a nun, you will discern that whether or not you can picture how you will teach your children to love their faith. KWIM? In your discernment process, focus especially on God’s will for you.
However, I do appreciate the thinking ahead. It is reasonable to wonder about specific dilemmas of parenting. And it is good to research them and to have some specific ideas about how to approach them. But as I said in my first post, the most important part of explaining death to your children is giving them a foundation of faith. This will be true of all parenting dilemmas. It doesn’t matter how good your explanation of death is. If you give that explanation to a child who does not have a lifetime of prayer and understanding of himself as a child of God, etc. in his background, that explanation is going to fall short. Without the background of a good education in your faith, death, is going to be much more scary, and more confusing and meaningless. But WITH a strong foundation of faith, even if you get your words a little wrong, and even if you don’t always know the right thing to say, your kids are going to be ok. THEIR faith will help them. Same for all sorts of life decisions. Really the best way to deal with death is for the child to experience life as a child of God, and for the child to know his place in the world, and in the communion of saints. The other stuff will follow. In fact, with a good catechetical program like Faith and Life, and the Baltimore Catechism, the other stuff will be included - so that you don’t have to make up the answers on your own, but simply expand on (and refer back to) these materials.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Bodies die? You talk as if your body isn’t you. The Church doesn’t teach that. We are more than just a soul. We are both body and soul. When we die and until we rise again, we are separated in our very essence. That’s not an experience? What is it, then?
You say that when Jesus conquered death it means that we wouldn’t experience death, but 1 Corinthians says “the last enemy to be destroyed is death” and speaks of “when everything is subjected to him” as a future event. Again, what the Church teaches doesn’t agree with what you say.
Besides that, you speak as if the dead are in heaven and yet have no “experience” that they seem to have misplaced their bodies somewhere? What evidence do you have for that? Even the people who report near-death call it an experience. If not that, you seem to be saying that a person in a coma doesn’t experience a coma because they’re not aware of their bodies, therefore they are not really comatose, but only their body is. No, the comatose person is in a coma, whether or not they do or don’t have awareness of it.
From one of the Catholic Answers tracts I cited:
*Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body *(The Resurrection 8 [A.D. 153]).
–Justin Martyr
Yes, St. Paul does say that Christ has conquered death, but he also says this:
We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance. Rom. 8:22-25
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
I used to do this on forums. Pull out all the quotes from all the sources and fight with people about what they believe.
Here’s the way I see it: I do not disagree with the Church. Here’s the way you see it: “Julia Mae disagrees with the Church.”
The difference in our positions is which quotes we refer to and how we interpret them. The other difference is: it’s okay with me that you believe what you do. I can support all I believe with direct quotes from Jesus Christ in Scripture. I will continue in my surety. I’m sure you will keep on in yours.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
I don’t believe I was fighting about what you believe. I was saying that what you wrote is substantially different from what the Church teaches. There is a difference.
If you said Transubstantiation really did not mean that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is a presence par excellence, that Christ does not becomes present whole and entire, God and man, you would in fact be wrong. It’s a different position than mine, but it is also substantially different than what the Church teaches. It just is, even though a good number of Christians outside the Church will quote Scripture up and down to say otherwise. Yes, I might throw some quotes from Church documents your way to make the point. I might point out that there is dispute about whether or not the Virgin Mary experienced death before her Assumption, but no dispute about the rest of the saints did, so obviously there isn’t any dispute about whether the rest of us experience death. But yes, at some point I would give up.
If you won’t believe what the apologists at Catholic Answers have to say on the matter–it was they who quoted Justin Martyr’s writing: “Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man”–then obviously there is nothing I can say to address your invincible “surety”. You’re determined to believe what you believe, there’s nothing I can do about it.
M
Mary_Margaret_1
Guest
Thank you so much for this detailed response… I appreciate what you said about my potential children’s faith helping them in their lives as my faith has helped me. I have a few years to decide on/find my vocation… I will just try to place this question in the hands of God!
Discerning His will,
God bless,
Mary Margaret
- Status