Exploring Bahaism

[jeffrey_erwin]

Jeffery - In the Kitáb-i-‘Ahd, moreover, Bahá’u’lláh solemnly and explicitly declares: “It is incumbent upon the Aghsán, the Afnán and My kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: ‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.’ The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch (‘Abdu’l-Bahá). Thus have We graciously revealed unto you our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful.” reference.bahai.org/search?max=10&first=1&query=Kit%C3%A1b-i-%E2%80%98Ahd&idxname]=en-WOB

My opinion after reading from various sources, is that it was a Spiritual Resurrection and that however Jesus appeared later, it was the Spiritual Jesus.

The passages by Christ that place no importance on the Flesh is paramount to this observation. Faith can not contradict science to the degree that we would believe a Flesh and Bone body has not returned to the elements it came from. But it could support the possibility of an existence of the Spirit. It has not quite done this yet.
Regards Tony

Thanks, Tony, for the quoted passage and for your honest statement of belief.

I see clearly that Baha’u’llah appoints Abdul-Baha as leader of the Baha’i Church. What I don’t notice is any pronouncement of a transfer of Divine Certitude to Abdul. That’s not surprising, because, if there was such, it would be a contradiction of Baha’s edict of Certitude in the Al-Kitab.

I must stand by my statement that Abdul-Baha’s statement in regards to the resurrection of Jesus does not reflect the reality of that event and should be corrected.

As for a flesh and bone body not returning to the elements, that event is noted twice before Jesus’s body disappeared from his tomb: Enoch and Elijah.

You say that you don’t believe the miracle of the Shroud of Turin. Some Catholics don’t believe that either. I challenge them as I challenge you: Have you read any books on the subject? There is a wealth of historical evidence showing that the history of the Shroud goes back far beyond its appearance in 1357. You do know exactly what Jesus looked like even if you don’t realize that now.

 

[Servant19]

I said twice in my last post that Jesus appeared alive in a physical body to His disciples and many others after His execution and burial. This is what is meant by His “Resurrection.” It is a miracle. Abdul Baha’s statements deny this reality; they deny the physical resurrection of Jesus’ body.

Of course Abdu’l-Baha doesn’t mention the tomb or the fact that the Body disappeared from that tomb. He doesn’t mention the reappearance of Jesus in His living body after that either obviously because Abdu’l-Baha doesn’t believe that such event ever actually happened.

How about you, Servant? What do you believe in this regard?

and please quit trying to change the subject by asking about “the glorified body Christ.” That, what ever it is, is not what we are talking about here.

I’m confused now Jeffrey.

If Jesus was not resurrected as a glorified body upon appearance to the Apostles, what was He therefore?

Isn’t Jesus’ Resurrection all about the glorified body?

.

 

[Techno2000]

Thanks, Tony, for the quoted passage and for your honest statement of belief.

I see clearly that Baha’u’llah appoints Abdul-Baha as leader of the Baha’i Church. What I don’t notice is any pronouncement of a transfer of Divine Certitude to Abdul. That’s not surprising, because, if there was such, it would be a contradiction of Baha’s edict of Certitude in the Al-Kitab.

I must stand by my statement that Abdul-Baha’s statement in regards to the resurrection of Jesus does not reflect the reality of that event and should be corrected.

As for a flesh and bone body not returning to the elements, that event is noted twice before Jesus’s body disappeared from his tomb: Enoch and Elijah.

You say that you don’t believe the miracle of the Shroud of Turin. Some Catholics don’t believe that either. I challenge them as I challenge you: Have you read any books on the subject? There is a wealth of historical evidence showing that the history of the Shroud goes back far beyond its appearance in 1357. You do know exactly what Jesus looked like even if you don’t realize that now.

 

[worldcitizen]

Ok resurrection. Physical body ok.

To everyone here. Do you believe in Christ today? Now? This minute? Do you see His physical body now walking around you every minute, every second? Do you need that to say He is resurrected or need it as proof that He is the Christ??

I do see Christ now. I see the exact same Jesus Who had the exact same Christ with me always and it’s the EXACT same Christ with the wounds and the crown of thorns and He surrounds me and I see Him.

There is no difference between the Jesus I see now and the One Who was crucified on the cross. I can put my hands in His Wounds and feel them also.

Haven’t you ever had a vision or a dream where you flew or spoke real words with others or even touched others??

How can it be disputed that the disciples didn’t have a vision or a dream and in that vision or dream they touched Christ’s wounds and spoke to Him as we speak in a dream??

Except it was a vision. Here is how Abdul-Baha explains how the disciples saw visions.

Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ 1 —that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up.(Abdul-Baha)

Yet everyone who believes in Christ today it is based upon the spiritual reality of Jesus for, unless in a dream or vision, who has touched Jesus physically (photographs please)??

 

[Techno2000]

Ok resurrection. Physical body ok.

To everyone here. Do you believe in Christ today? Now? This minute? Do you see His physical body now walking around you every minute, every second? Do you need that to say He is resurrected or need it as proof that He is the Christ??

I do see Christ now. I see the exact same Jesus Who had the exact same Christ with me always and it’s the EXACT same Christ with the wounds and the crown of thorns and He surrounds me and I see Him.

There is no difference between the Jesus I see now and the One Who was crucified on the cross. I can put my hands in His Wounds and feel them also.

Haven’t you ever had a vision or a dream where you flew or spoke real words with others or even touched others??

How can it be disputed that the disciples didn’t have a vision or a dream and in that vision or dream they touched Christ’s wounds and spoke to Him as we speak in a dream??

Except it was a vision. Here is how Abdul-Baha explains how the disciples saw visions.

Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ 1 —that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up.(Abdul-Baha)

David, how does he know what happen was he there ?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This has been clarified in the Baha’i Writings. Christ indeed died for our Sins, in turn each of the Messengers of God all suffered in ways that show us it is to God we turn for our Forgiveness.

In the case of Baha’u’llah - “The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!”

Regards Tony

Christ is the reason for which we are saved by God, no one else Tony. If all prophets were in of themselves sufficient for salvation I do not see why Jesus was needed considering that you believe the Jews had Abraham and Moses revealed to them and the gentiles before Abraham had Krishna and Buddha.

That understanding of course conflicts with the New testament which tells us Christ pays the price we ourselves could not pay.

Hebrews 5 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

And of course we have the words of Jesus himself indicating that he is the way the truth and the life and no man enters into the Father except by him. (John 14:6)

I anticipate two courses in your response. You will argue that Jesus’ words are not unique but apply universally to all the manifestations since they are all the “Christ,” yet where did Muhammad or Moses or Abraham claim they were a way to God? That their blood was given for the trespasses of many? That they will sit on judgement and are able to atone and pay for our sins? Being merely men they did not claim such a perogative which belongs only to God.

You will perhaps maybe interpret “Father” to be your Ali Nuri, though that is simply a blatant anachronstic reading into teh text. That perhaps you Bahai fulfill what Jesus said because you can’t accept your prophet without accepting Jesus.

It’s good you admit Christ died for our sins, but he alone died for our sins and it is to him alone you owe your salvation. Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Ali Nuri and Buddha you might revere, but to Jesus you owe your connection to your Father (God), if you take his words seriously.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

I’m confused now Jeffrey.

If Jesus was not resurrected as a glorified body upon appearance to the Apostles, what was He therefore?
Isn’t Jesus’ Resurrection all about the glorified body?
.

With all due respect sir, I really think that you are trying to change the subject, and confuse the issue with semantics, because you are in a conundrum:

Because of a rigid Baha’i theology you cannot ever admit that Abdul-Baha’ might have made a mistake, but you don’t want to admit either that Abdul’s denial contradicts one of the most the basic tenets of Christianity: the physical resurrection of Jesus. The tragedy is that this situation exacerbates the separation between the Christian Church and the Baha’i Faith.

Perhaps YHWH is testing us to see if we can, through love of our neighbor, overcome this obstacle. We should, and must, act as brothers and also feel that way too.

Blessed is the one who acknowledges our Creator and His wonders, and who confesses that He is not to be questioned about what he does.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ok resurrection. Physical body ok.

To everyone here. Do you believe in Christ today? Now? This minute? Do you see His physical body now walking around you every minute, every second? Do you need that to say He is resurrected or need it as proof that He is the Christ??
/QUOTE]

A misunderstanding of Christianity. Clearly the physical body of Christ is not present all around us, that makes no sense. Jesus is present spiritually through the Comforter (Holy Spirit) he sent to his apostles and the Christians since.

 

[Techno2000]

With all due respect sir, I really think that you are trying to change the subject, and confuse the issue with semantics, because you are in a conundrum:

Because of a rigid Baha’i theology you cannot ever admit that Abdul-Baha’ might have made a mistake, but you don’t want to admit either that Abdul’s denial contradicts one of the most the basic tenants of Christianity: the physical resurrection of Jesus. The tragedy is that this situation exacerbates the separation between the Christian Church and the Baha’i Faith.

Perhaps YHWH is testing us to see if we can, through love of our neighbor, overcome this obstacle. We should, and must, act as brothers and also feel that way too.

The resurrection doesn’t fit their theology because how could a resurrected Jesus manifest into Muhammad?

 

[Servant19]

DEAR CATHOLIC FRIENDS,

I wish to know if Christ was resurrected as the same physical body as what He had before crucifixion or a glorified body?

Is a glorified body the same as a physical body?

Thank you

.

 

[Techno2000]

DEAR CATHOLIC FRIENDS,

I wish to know if Christ was resurrected as the same physical body as what He had before crucifixion or a glorified body?

Is a glorified body the same as a physical body?

Thank you

.

Yes, only better.

 

[Servant19]

With all due respect sir, I really think that you are trying to change the subject, and confuse the issue with semantics, because you are in a conundrum:

Because of a rigid Baha’i theology you cannot ever admit that Abdul-Baha’ might have made a mistake, but you don’t want to admit either that Abdul’s denial contradicts one of the most the basic tenets of Christianity: the physical resurrection of Jesus. The tragedy is that this situation exacerbates the separation between the Christian Church and the Baha’i Faith.

Perhaps YHWH is testing us to see if we can, through love of our neighbor, overcome this obstacle. We should, and must, act as brothers and also feel that way too.

Blessed is the one who acknowledges our Creator and His wonders, and who confesses that He is not to be questioned about what he does.

Not semantics at all dear Jeffrey.

It is simply precision reading of the Bible.

If you cannot answer the question, then for what is our faith for?

You keep insisting on a physical resurrection but there is a physical body, and a spiritual, glorified body. St. Paul attests to this in clear language in 1Corinthians.

Perishes a physical body, raised a spiritual body. Not raised a physical body, raised a spiritual body.

There is nothing unBiblical about what Abdu’l-Baha asserts

.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, only better.

That’s not what St.Paul said at all.

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

DEAR CATHOLIC FRIENDS,

I wish to know if Christ was resurrected as the same physical body as what He had before crucifixion or a glorified body?

Is a glorified body the same as a physical body?

Thank you

.

After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. John 20:20

Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:39

Yes it was the same body that was once dead and yes his body was physical as it says in the Gospels.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Didn’t Abdu’l Baha, taught that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead “…is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material…,” even though the Bible is clear about it being a physical event (John 2:19-21; 20:20; Luke 24:15; Acts 2:32). If Jesus was resurrected physically from the dead, that would place Him in a position superior to Baha’u’llah, and nullify all Baha’i claims. My question is, on what authority are the co-founders, Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l Baha, able to change the clear teaching of the Bible–other than their claim to have such authority? Anyone can make such claims.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Not semantics at all dear Jeffrey.

It is simply precision reading of the Bible.

If you cannot answer the question, then for what is our faith for?

You keep insisting on a physical resurrection but there is a physical body, and a spiritual, glorified body. St. Paul attests to this in clear language in 1Corinthians.

Perishes a physical body, raised a spiritual body. Not raised a physical body, raised a spiritual body.

There is nothing unBiblical about what Abdu’l-Baha asserts

.

Spiritual body does not necessitate immaterial body. It makes sense to regard Paul as referring the resurrected Body, especially given that Paul says Christ appeared to some 500 people, some of whom were still alive at the time. Paul bases our resurrection on the resurrection of Jesus and it’s important to note our resurrection has not happened yet for Paul and on your understanding it would happen immediately when the individual dies. Paul indicates however that the resurrection is a future event and gives no hint at it being done on an individual level, except as a symbol through baptism. That however does not refute the basis of that symbolism, namely the physical resurrection of Christ.

…in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:52

Paul doesn’t leave much option for docetic interpretations.

 

[Techno2000]

That’s not what St.Paul said at all.

.

The Four Properties of a Glorified Body

1. Impassibility – the glorified body will no longer suffer physical sickness or death, as Saint Paul teaches regarding the glorified body in 1 Corinthians 15:42, “It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption.”
2. Subtlety- meaning that we will have a spiritualized nature in the sense of a spiritual body as did our Lord as we learn at 1 Corinthians 15:44: “It is sown a corruptible body, it shall rise a spiritual,” i.e. a spirit-like, “body.” We see that Christ’s glorified body was able to pass through closed doors.
3. Agility – the glorified body will obey the soul with the greatest ease and speed of movement as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:43: “It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power,” that is, according to a gloss, “mobile and living.” Saint Thomas Aquinas says, “But mobility can only signify agility in movement. Therefore the glorified bodies will be agile.” We discern agility our Resurrected Lord’s ability to bilocate and travel great distances in an instant.
4. Clarity – the glorified body will be free from any deformity and will be filled with beauty and radiance as we read at Matthew 13:43: “The just shall shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father,” and Wisdom 3:7: “The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.” Here clarity refers not being “clear” but to being “bright.”

St. Thomas Aquinas at Summa Contra Gentiles, IV, 86 summarized: “thus also will his body be raised to the characteristics of heavenly bodies — it will be lightsome (clarity), incapable of suffering (impassible), without difficulty and labor in movement (agility), and most perfectly perfected by its form (subtlety). For this reason, the Apostle speaks of the bodies of the risen as heavenly, referring not to their nature, but to their glory.”

taylormarshall.com/2012/10/do-you-know-four-properties-of.html

 

[arthra]

With regard to the resurrection I think we’ve already made pretty clear the Baha’i view. We believe in the spiritual resurrection of Jesus not as a corporeal physical resurrection:

*Concerning the Resurrection of Christ you quote the twenty-fourth chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, where the account stresses the reality of the appearance of Jesus to His disciples who, the Gospel states, at first took Him to be a ghost. From a Bahá’í point of view the belief that the Resurrection was the return to life of a body of flesh and blood, which later rose from the earth into the sky is not reasonable, nor is it necessary to the essential truth of the disciples’ experience, which is that Jesus did not cease to exist when He was crucified (as would have been the belief of many Jews of that period), but that His Spirit, released from the body, ascended to the presence of God and continued to inspire and guide His followers and preside over the destinies of His dispensation.

• (The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

There’s no need to bring in the Shroud of Turin. I realize a lot of people believe in it but it is not really an issue for Baha’is and arguing about it here would be a futile exercise.

Just as we do not believe Jesus was physically resurrected … we also deny that Prophet Muhammad physically ascended over Jerusalem in the Night Journey…we believe it was a visionary experience.

The concept of resurrection has been used in the Writings in a variety of ways so it may help here to provide some examples:

The following may be a new concept of resurrection to many here but it is offered here in a provisional translation of the Bayan revealed by the Bab:

*Thus, for example, from the day on which Jesus was sent (by God)
until the day of his Ascension was the Resurrection of Moses, for the
revelation of God was manifest during that period through the revelation of
that Reality, who rewarded by his words everyone who was a believer in
Moses and punished by his words everyone who did not believe in him. For
whatsoever God had witnessed in that age (of Moses) is what He witnessed in
the Gospel. And from the day on which the Messenger of God (Muhammad) was
sent until the day of his death ('uruj-i an) was the Resurrection of Jesus,
for the Tree of Reality was manifest in the (human) temple of Muhammad, who
rewarded all who believed in Jesus and punished by his words all who did
not believe in him.
*
(The Bab, Bayan - MacEoin - better format)

The advent of the Manifestation is like the coming of the Spring. It is a day of resurrection in which the spiritually dead are raised to new life, in which the Reality of the Divine Religions is renewed and reestablished, in which appear ‘new heavens and a new earth.’

"But, in the world of nature, the Spring brings about not only the growth and awakening of new life, but also the destruction and removal of the old and effete; for the same sun, that makes the flowers to spring and the trees to bud, causes also the decay and disintegration of what is dead and useless; it loosens the ice and melts the snow of winter, and sets free the flood and the storm that cleanse and purify the earth.

So it is also in the spiritual world. The spiritual sunshine causes similar commotion and change. Thus the Day of Resurrection is also the Day of Judgment, in which corruptions and imitations of the truth and outworn ideas and customs are discarded and destroyed, in which the ice and snow of prejudice and superstition, which accumulated during the season of winter, are melted and transformed, and energies long frozen and pent up are released to flood and renovate the world."

 

[Techno2000]

There is nothing unBiblical about what Abdu’l-Baha asserts

.

Where in the Bible does Jesus use these words…

‘Abdu’l-Bahá…

**Christ came, saying, “I am born of the Holy Spirit.” **

 

[Techno2000]

There’s no need to bring in the Shroud of Turin.

Does that bother you ?