Exploring Bahaism

[TonyBS]

Here’s your problem…
**
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:12**

The strongest power is that of Love, Love trumps it all and wins in the end

A Baha’i is a Lover of the Light of Love no matter where it shines, we are like Moths to the Flame, We aim give our lives to the Flame.

Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

if universal peace means abandoning the teachings of Jesus Christ about the True Nature of almighty God, about the Holy Trinity, about the forgiveness of sins, about the power of grace received through the Holy Eucharist, about eternal life and about Salvation and Redemption, i will just have to stand separate from such a teaching or doctrine.

i reject such a doctrine and teaching completely.

the Holy Trinity, the forgiveness of sins, the spiritual power found in the Holy Eucharist, the promise of eternal life did not come from men. they are not mere disagreements over definitions of terms.

the teachings of Jesus are true and the only available insights in to the true nature of the Divine and our Creator’s purpose in creating reality.

if we abandon the teachings of Jesus or lower them to mere human understandings of our created spiritual reality, we remain mired in our sins and bereft of eternal life. that is true even if most human beings agree to live in universal peace (and i am not going in to this concept which begs for clarification, although i suspect you will find few who agree on what such a concept means, for this reason, a concept not likely to lead to universal agreement or peace i would think).

what do YOU mean when you speak or write about the bahai concept of universal government or universal peace, or universal agreement, however it is the bahai define it (it all bahai agree on its definition) since i do not find these three concepts, peace, agreement, government to be the same thing.

 

[Techno2000]

if universal peace means abandoning the teachings of Jesus Christ about the True Nature of almighty God, about the Holy Trinity, about the forgiveness of sins, about the power of grace received through the Holy Eucharist, about eternal life and about Salvation and Redemption, i will just have to stand separate from such a teaching or doctrine.

i reject such a doctrine and teaching completely.

the Holy Trinity, the forgiveness of sins, the spiritual power found in the Holy Eucharist, the promise of eternal life did not come from men. they are not mere disagreements over definitions of terms.

the teachings of Jesus are true and the only available insights in to the true nature of the Divine and our Creator’s purpose in creating reality.

if we abandon the teachings of Jesus or lower them to mere human understandings of our created spiritual reality, we remain mired in our sins and bereft of eternal life. that is true even if most human beings agree to live in universal peace (and i am not going in to this concept which begs for clarification, although i suspect you will find few who agree on what such a concept means, for this reason, a concept not likely to lead to universal agreement or peace i would think).

what do YOU mean when you speak or write about the bahai concept of universal government or universal peace, or universal agreement, however it is the bahai define it (it all bahai agree on its definition) since i do not find these three concepts, peace, agreement, government to be the same thing.

They think that if they just throw around words like… God, love and unity everything is going be ok.

 

[TonyBS]

You have to be on the right Ladder to reach the very top.

To me That is like saying I have to be the Right Race or right Color

Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

i believe a bahai wrote this, ***" That, that God is found within us all with His Laws." ***in an earlier post on this thread and i would like to explore the consequences of such a belief.

if God is found within us all with His Laws, does that mean for the bahai that God, from within us, is the cause of murders and rapes and violence against innocents?

i ask this more as a rhetorical device since i doubt that the bahai believe this and what i want to focus on is the non-specificity i find repeatedly in the words i encounter from the bahai.

maybe i could put the issue in a more simple manner by asking, is God within a human when the human commits rape or murders another human? if not, could the above statement from a bahai be given more interpretation so as to enhance our understanding of what exactly the bahai mean in their words?

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Dear Jeffery - I can confirm that Abdul’baha is appointed by Baha’ullah’s Covenant and through this covenant Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice were also appointed.
Regards Tony

OK, please cite the passage as written by Baha’u’llah. His writings are many volumes, so I am sure that he would not have neglected to note such an important edict.

Assuming that the above appointment to sole interpreter is correct, that still does not authorize Abdul Baha to deny one of the most important events of the founding of the Christian Faith, i.e. the disappearance of the dead body of Rabbi Yeshu from His tomb and his living appearance in the flesh soon after.
Baha’u’llah, to the best of my knowledge, never made such a denial.

This is an important point. Why don’t you tell us what you personally believe about the Holy Resurrection of Jesus?

 

[Techno2000]

To me That is like saying I have to be the Right Race or right Color

Regards Tony

Everyone has to go through Jesus to get into Heaven.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[TonyBS]

i believe a bahai wrote this, ***" That, that God is found within us all with His Laws." ***in an earlier post on this thread and i would like to explore the consequences of such a belief.

if God is found within us all with His Laws, does that mean for the bahai that God, from within us, is the cause of murders and rapes and violence against innocents?

i ask this more as a rhetorical device since i doubt that the bahai believe this and what i want to focus on is the non-specificity i find repeatedly in the words i encounter from the bahai.

maybe i could put the issue in a more simple manner by asking, is God within a human when the human commits rape or murders another human? if not, could the above statement from a bahai be given more interpretation so as to enhance our understanding of what exactly the bahai mean in their words?

Sorry Eddie this is a good question worthy of a good answer - Sorry time is short.

A person that does these act only finds His animal Self overriding our God within. He used His Free will wrongly.

He has found His Devil so to speak and not God within with His Laws
Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

OK, please cite the passage as written by Baha’u’llah. His writings are many volumes, so I sure that he would not have neglected to note such an important edict.

Assuming that the above appointment to sole interpreter is correct, that still does not authorize Abdul Baha to deny one of the most important events of the founding of the Christian Faith, i.e. the disappearance of the dead body of Rabbi Yeshu from His tomb and his living appearance in the flesh soon after.
Baha’u’llah, to the best of my knowledge, never made such a denial.

This is an important point. Why don’t you tell us what you personally believe about the Holy Resurrection of Jesus?

**They don’t believe in a Devil either. **

 

[eddie_too]

does that mean, in bahai teaching, that our animal selves are stronger with in us than is God, since our animal selves so often prevail in our lives?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This is true for all religions, the messages are a High calling and many try to scale the heights, many of us fail.

The thing here is to pick oneself up ask forgiveness and try again. many are content to stay on the Ground, many climb but a way, few reach the top and find the goal.

Regards Tony

This is not true of all religions. Not all religions teach that forgiveness comes from God dying on the cross for the sins of all, for an utterly unworthy creation which sins and defies him. Only Christianity does this, hence why it divides.

 

[TonyBS]

does that mean, in bahai teaching, that our animal selves are stronger with in us than is God, since our animal selves so often prevail in our lives?

No, it is Only if we allow it. It is Only if we do not teach our children from a young age the importance of our God and His Virtues. The foundation of a Spiritual Education is imperative.

Yes the animal instinct is strong, and it needs to be trained. Free Will a wonderful gift.

Of course a few lines in answer to this question will not do it the Justice it Deserves

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

This is not true of all religions. Not all religions teach that forgiveness comes from God dying on the cross for the sins of all, for an utterly unworthy creation which sins and defies him. Only Christianity does this, hence why it divides.

This has been clarified in the Baha’i Writings. Christ indeed died for our Sins, in turn each of the Messengers of God all suffered in ways that show us it is to God we turn for our Forgiveness.

In the case of Baha’u’llah - “The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!”

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

From “Some Answered Questions:” Part 2, pgs 22-23:

“Thus if the Sacred Scriptures speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that they attained everlasting life. . .”

“The resurrection of the Manifestations of God is not of the body.” “His [Jesus’s] disappearance into the earth for three days must also have a mystical rather than a literal meaning. In the same manner, His resurrection from the bosom of he earth is a mystical matter and expresses a spiritual rather than a material condition.”

“We explain, therefore, the meaning of Christ’s resurrection in the following way: After the martyrdom of Christ, the Apostles were perplexed and dismayed. The reality of Christ which consists in His teachings, …[etc] was hidden and concealed for two or three days…After three days the Apostles became firm and steadfast, arose,…,resolved,… .and endeavoured to serve Him. Then did the reality of Christ become resplendent. . .and His teachings and admonitions become manifest and visible…”

“Such is the meaning of the Resurrection. . .”

I am not aware that Baha’u’llah ever made any statement that would deny the physical resurrection (in material body) of Jesus. But, because of Abdul Baha’s writing, members of the Baha’i Faith, as far as I am aware, do not accept the physical resurrection of our Lord’s body as a reality.

Please feel free to say that you do so.

Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you for the quote. Please note, there is no mention of a mental resurrection…

Please also for clarification note that when Abdu’l-Baha states that resurrection is not of the body, what is meant is that of a physical body.

So on that note, what is the glorified body of Christ, a physical body?

.

 

[Servant19]

Possible, for a broad sense of the word possible, but not what Christianity teaches, and it conflicts with what Christianity teaches.

I mean (a priori) all kinds of things could be true. But Christianity does not teach that nothing but Christ exists. Christianity teaches that all kinds of things exist, and that their existence as things that are themselves, and are distinct from other things, is actually good - rather than a sort of illusoryish thing that ought to be transcended. (Caveat: the God is Existence thing has sometimes been phrased “only God exists, others merely have existence,” but even under this phrasing, the other things are actually separate from God, and this fact is good, and they actually have the existence that they have - there is no “illusion of individuality” thing going on.)

Buddhism does not teach this.

Again, (leaving aside arguments showing one way or the other) either is a possible world view. But they can’t both be true, and so the people who taught them can’t both be right.

It’s certainly possible that humans misinterpret, and in fact I would say they do so all the time.

Nevertheless if Prophet Bob says X, and Prophet Fred says Not X, then one of them is wrong. If God actually spoke to both of them, then either one of them is being dishonest (and so his religion is false), or God isn’t a very good communicator, and so one of them gets the wrong idea and his religion is also false.

It is my position that God can communicate clearly if He so chooses, and that He can find honest prophets. Therefore, it seems reasonable that rather than there being lots of “true” religions that contradict each other (and so aren’t actually true but were revealed, at least), that there are lots of false (to varying degrees and for various reasons) religions and at most one true one.

Quiet often there are similarities - as there should be. We’re all grasping after truth, and there is one truth. To the extent that we don’t mess up when we approach it, we will find agreement.

But quiet often there are huge dissimilarities, like the one I mentioned between Buddhism and Christianity - that is not a false difference. At most one is true, the other is false. And so both can’t be the revelations of an honest God.

If we are taught to love our enemies then what is left to not love?

.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Hi Jeffrey,

Please also for clarification note that when Abdu’l-Baha states that resurrection is not of the body, what is meant is that of a physical body.

So on that note, what is the glorified body of Christ, a physical body?
.

Christians believe that the dead body of Jesus disappeared from his sealed and guarded tomb–actually vanished–leaving behind only His linen burial cloth.
Soon thereafter He appeared to His disciples in the living flesh of His resurrected body.
He may have appeared to as many as 500 people in His living flesh.

Abdul Baha’s lofty statements clearly deny this reality.

More over, Jesus left behind a miracle in that tomb which is here today for all the world to see: The Image of His dead Body on His burial linen: known today as the Holy Shroud of Turin.
In fact, you can actually see a black and white reversed photo of the facial part of that image right here on this post: a miracle right in front of your eyes!
Eventually it will be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Shroud of Turin is bona-fide scientific evidence of that Resurrection. Ref. TEST the SHROUD, Antonacci, 2015.

I invite you to express your own beliefs in this regard.

 

[Servant19]

Christians believe that the dead body of Jesus disappeared from his sealed and guarded tomb–actually vanished–leaving behind only His linen burial cloth.
Soon thereafter He appeared to His disciples in the living flesh of His resurrected body.
He may have appeared to as many as 500 people in His living flesh.

Abdul Baha’s lofty statements clearly deny this reality.

More over, Jesus left behind a miracle in that tomb which is here today for all the world to see: The Image of His dead Body on His burial linen: known today as the Holy Shroud of Turin.
In fact, you can actually see a black and white reversed photo of the facial part of that image right here on this post: a miracle right in front of your eyes!
Eventually it will be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Shroud of Turin is bona-fide scientific evidence of that Resurrection. Ref. TEST the SHROUD, Antonacci, 2015.

I invite you to express your own beliefs in this regard.

No dear friend

Abdu’l-Baha mentions nothing about the tomb and a disappearing body.

I humbly ask again, is the glorified body of Christ a physical body?

.

 

[TonyBS]

OK, please cite the passage as written by Baha’u’llah. His writings are many volumes, so I am sure that he would not have neglected to note such an important edict.

Assuming that the above appointment to sole interpreter is correct, that still does not authorize Abdul Baha to deny one of the most important events of the founding of the Christian Faith, i.e. the disappearance of the dead body of Rabbi Yeshu from His tomb and his living appearance in the flesh soon after.
Baha’u’llah, to the best of my knowledge, never made such a denial.

This is an important point. Why don’t you tell us what you personally believe about the Holy Resurrection of Jesus?

Jeffery - In the Kitáb-i-‘Ahd, moreover, Bahá’u’lláh solemnly and explicitly declares: “It is incumbent upon the Aghsán, the Afnán and My kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: ‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.’ The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch (‘Abdu’l-Bahá). Thus have We graciously revealed unto you our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful.” reference.bahai.org/search?max=10&first=1&query=Kit%C3%A1b-i-%E2%80%98Ahd&idxname]=en-WOB

My opinion after reading from various sources, is that it was a Spiritual Resurrection and that however Jesus appeared later, it was the Spiritual Jesus.

The passages by Christ that place no importance on the Flesh is paramount to this observation. Faith can not contradict science to the degree that we would believe a Flesh and Bone body has not returned to the elements it came from. But it could support the possibility of an existence of the Spirit. It has not quite done this yet.

There is deep Spiritual Significance in the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ. It may be of Interest that if you were in Persia when the Bab also sacrificed His Life that the Promised one may become manifest and He was Martyred in much the same way Christ was, that for 3 Days His Body with His Companion was left on the ground for all too see. It disappeared after 3 days and stories were made as to why this happened. It was not for over 70 years that it became apparent where the body had gone.

Jesus Christ Mission was to show us we are basically Spiritual Creatures, given the Chance to be born again and not suffer the first death. I personally wonder why so many hold to the Return of the same flesh body of 2000 years ago. To me much more Logical that the same Spirit would return in a Body again chosen by God.

Personally I have had one dream of Abdul’baha where we met before he walked back in to what appeared to be a building like the Universal House of Justice on Mt Carmel, I followed but turned another direction into another room. When I awoke it was very real and consider in dreams it can very “real” until you wake. But each person different.

Many people have over the years had powerful visions, what can I say I can not tell you of Gods Worlds, I am but a human like you finding my way.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Christians believe that the dead body of Jesus disappeared from his sealed and guarded tomb–actually vanished–leaving behind only His linen burial cloth.
Soon thereafter He appeared to His disciples in the living flesh of His resurrected body.
He may have appeared to as many as 500 people in His living flesh.

Abdul Baha’s lofty statements clearly deny this reality.

More over, Jesus left behind a miracle in that tomb which is here today for all the world to see: The Image of His dead Body on His burial linen: known today as the Holy Shroud of Turin.
In fact, you can actually see a black and white reversed photo of the facial part of that image right here on this post: a miracle right in front of your eyes!
Eventually it will be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Shroud of Turin is bona-fide scientific evidence of that Resurrection. Ref. TEST the SHROUD, Antonacci, 2015.

I invite you to express your own beliefs in this regard.

Jeffery - A program actually played here on this a couple of weeks ago.I watched the conclusion, it was negative to it being what people wanted it to be.

From my perspective we have no idea what Jesus the Christ looked like, that the image looked like images man had painted?

To me i do not need this proof, the story is as it is and it is there for me to Know Love and embrace Jesus the Christ as my Lord and Savior. the story works, i do not need any miraculous proofs from it. But that is me

Regards Tony

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

No dear friend

Abdu’l-Baha mentions nothing about the tomb and a disappearing body.

I humbly ask again, is the glorified body of Christ a physical body?
.

I said twice in my last post that Jesus appeared alive in a physical body to His disciples and many others after His execution and burial. This is what is meant by His “Resurrection.” It is a miracle. Abdul Baha’s statements deny this reality; they deny the physical resurrection of Jesus’ body.

Of course Abdu’l-Baha doesn’t mention the tomb or the fact that the Body disappeared from that tomb. He doesn’t mention the reappearance of Jesus in His living body after that either obviously because Abdu’l-Baha doesn’t believe that such event ever actually happened.

How about you, Servant? What do you believe in this regard?

and please quit trying to change the subject by asking about “the glorified body Christ.” That, what ever it is, is not what we are talking about here.