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Servant19
Guest
You have a go to place (the Devil) whenever you seem stuck for words or an adequate apologetic
I love you for that fear of evil
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I love you for that fear of evil
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JimmyDFG
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Once again worldcitizen, you and the Baha’i faith has it wrong.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 638
"The Resurrection of Jesus is the crowning truth of our faith in Christ, a faith believed and lived as the central truth by the first Christian community; handed on as fundamental by Tradition; established by the documents of the New Testament; and preached as an essential part of the Paschal mystery along with the cross:
656 Faith in the Resurrection has as its object an event which as historically attested to by the disciples, who really encountered the Risen One. At the same time, this event is mysteriously transcendent insofar as it is the entry of Christ’s humanity into the glory of God.
You still deny that Jesus rose from the dead physically even when examining John 2:19-21. We can clearly see that Jesus prophesied that He would raise up the temple of His body as is clarified in verse 21 by John the apostle who states that Jesus was speaking of “the temple of his body.” Therefore, this should be conclusive proof that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body in which He died. Clearly, John 2:19-21 shows us that Jesus predicted He would raise His very body–and He did so. Is this enough to put this issue to rest? You’d think so, but resistance persists.
Unfortunately, cults attack the resurrection of Christ and reinterpret it in different ways, thereby denying His physical resurrection. We must ask if Jesus rose from the dead in the very same body He died in, or did He rise in a spirit body that was not flesh and bones? The answer to this question is vital. It separates true Christians from false systems.
Matthew 22:31-32 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you never read what God himself said to you:
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is God, not of the dead, but of the living.’
Polycarp of Smyrna
“[W]hoever perverts the sayings of the Lord for his own desires, and says that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, such a one is the firstborn of Satan. Let us, therefore, leave the foolishness and the false-teaching of the crowd and turn back to the word which was delivered to us in the beginning” (Letter to the Philippians 7:1–2 [A.D. 135]).
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JimmyDFG
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The physical resurrection is mentioned in the Bible if you choose to believe the truth …its there in black and white. As I posted to worldcitizen as well in #541
Jesus was raised in the same body He died in with the same holes in His hands and feet. We also saw that Jesus proclaimed He had flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Again, does a “spirit body” consist of flesh and bones? The Scripture nowhere declares such a thing.
Paul is not stating that there are two separate bodies to each person, the physical and the spiritual and that after the physical one dies, the second and different spirit body takes over. Rather, when referencing the same body, he states, “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body,” 1Corinthians 15:44. The “it” is referring to the same body in both clauses not separate and different ones. This same body becomes a resurrected body which is the spiritual body to which he is referring. In other words, the spiritual body is the very same body He previously had though it had been changed into a spiritual one.
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Techno2000
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You would think that people who proclaim Jesus so much would be rejoicing that the Lord has risen.
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JimmyDFG
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They choose to believe falselyYou would think that people who proclaim Jesus so much would be rejoicing that the Lord has risen.
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eddie_too
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as much as the bahai have commented in these threads, i have yet to hear of a good reason to believe bab or bahaullah were sent to mankind by almighty God.
i have yet to hear from the bahai what bab or bahaullah provide to mankind that it cannot do without.
to me, the tens of thousands of pages of words that bahaullah wrote prove little other than his obsession with putting his thoughts on paper.
it is true that if we comb through the writings of bahaullah that we will see teachings he derived from christianity. in other words, he repeats some of the teachings of Jesus. this is not unique to the bahai faith. many other men and women since the time of Jesus have adopted some of His teachings. this occurs especially when such people can use those words to glorify themselves or to obtain power in this world. it is not surprising that people, since the time of Jesus, have incorporated some of Jesus’ teachings in to their own.
but, what teachings that originate with bahaullah can mankind not do without.
remember before answering, Jesus taught the unity of mankind through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. changing the meaning of Jesus’ teachings, interpreting them differently than Jesus’ magisterium interprets them, is not new teachings. it is merely defiance and distortion of the teachings of the Lord’s magisterium. even before the Lord’s death and resurrection, there were people misinterpreting Jesus and later disagreeing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ taught to us by His apostles. this is found repeatedly in the N.T., especially in the letters of st. paul the apostle to the gentiles.
i have yet to hear from the bahai what bab or bahaullah provide to mankind that it cannot do without.
to me, the tens of thousands of pages of words that bahaullah wrote prove little other than his obsession with putting his thoughts on paper.
it is true that if we comb through the writings of bahaullah that we will see teachings he derived from christianity. in other words, he repeats some of the teachings of Jesus. this is not unique to the bahai faith. many other men and women since the time of Jesus have adopted some of His teachings. this occurs especially when such people can use those words to glorify themselves or to obtain power in this world. it is not surprising that people, since the time of Jesus, have incorporated some of Jesus’ teachings in to their own.
but, what teachings that originate with bahaullah can mankind not do without.
remember before answering, Jesus taught the unity of mankind through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. changing the meaning of Jesus’ teachings, interpreting them differently than Jesus’ magisterium interprets them, is not new teachings. it is merely defiance and distortion of the teachings of the Lord’s magisterium. even before the Lord’s death and resurrection, there were people misinterpreting Jesus and later disagreeing with the Gospel of Jesus Christ taught to us by His apostles. this is found repeatedly in the N.T., especially in the letters of st. paul the apostle to the gentiles.
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Techno2000
Guest
You would think that if they truly came with the Power and Glory of God they would have made a great impact on the world, but instead all they did was cause confusion.
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Vouthon
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If I may ask…
So why do Baha’is accept a “physical” Virgin Birth?
Why is that the domain of faith? It happened in the physical world, no?
Why is the Virgin Birth not “spiritualized” or interpreted metaphorically?
I think that the Christian understanding of the Resurrection has been explained in great detail. I am not sure there is much more to go over on this front.
The Baha’i and Christian interpretations are different. Why can’t we agree to disagree and just respect our variant understandings now that they have been put forward in considerable detail?
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eddie_too
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the very concept of a “spiritual resurrection” is irrational and senseless.
spirits cannot die. therefore spirits can not resurrect.
the bahai do not understand this. rational thought is not a central part of the bahai religion. if it were, the bahai would see and understand how clear it is that the very concept of a “spiritual resurrection” is nonsensical. yet the bahai perpetuate the irrational idea that spirits resurrect.
spirits cannot die. therefore spirits can not resurrect.
the bahai do not understand this. rational thought is not a central part of the bahai religion. if it were, the bahai would see and understand how clear it is that the very concept of a “spiritual resurrection” is nonsensical. yet the bahai perpetuate the irrational idea that spirits resurrect.
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JimmyDFG
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Servant, Faith is not based on “scientific confirmation”. If you need scientific confirmation to believe in a faith …then yes ,you are weak in faith.
black is white and 1+1=3 … Servant, I know right from wrong
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Techno2000
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Abdu’l-Bahá said:
I have spoken to you of some of the principles of Bahá’u’lláh: The Search after Truth and The Unity of Mankind. I will now explain the Fourth Principle, which is The Acceptance of the Relation between Religion and Science.There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.How can a man believe to be a fact that which science has proved to
be impossible? If he believes in spite of his reason, it is rather ignorant
superstition than faith. The true principles of all religions are in conformity with the teachings of science.
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-45.html
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JimmyDFG
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Doesn’t sound like an Abrahamic religion
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TexanKnight
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Muslims to whom I have spoken claim Bahai is a splinter from them. They have been persecuted by Muslims
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Techno2000
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By using Abdu’l-Bahá criteria on his own religion would make it invalid because science can’t prove “The Manifestations of God” and that Bahá’u’lláh is the second coming of Jesus Christ.
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TonyBS
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The Baha’i Faith is an Independent World religion and is Born out Of Islam the same way Christianity was born out of Judaism.
Yes the persecutions continue and at the moment a new wave of this has begun in Iran.
Regards Tony
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JimmyDFG
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Good point!! Also I’d like to add the Baha’i belief that creation had no beginning " The process of His creation hath had no beginning, and can have no end."
It had been scientifically established that there was a beginning described as the ‘Big Bang’
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Techno2000
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Right, and how can an Angel speak to Muhammad and so on and so on.
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Servant19
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As much as I like to agree with you Jimmy, and while the Baha’i Faith does not categorically deny an experience that was indeed as physical as it gets for the Apostles when they witnessed the risen Jesus, one cannot accept that a physical resurrection is Biblical.
If the body was raised a physical body, Paul would simply state, “it is sown a physical body, it is raised a physical body”
What you are asserting is a twisting of Paul’s clear words…
Yes he is saying “it”, because the human IDENTITY is not changed. The human identity remains. The human identity (IT) is sown with the physical body at death, and IT (the human identity/reality) is raised as a SPIRITUAL reality/identity.
This changing of our “garment”, if you like, is no different to the changing of our “garment” when we transition from the umbilical cord and placenta dependent identity in the womb, to the sensory being with no placenta or umbilicus in this body.
The critical aspect to Christianity which I believe to be a mistake is that the human being is intended to have an incorruptible soul (which is compliant with all major global religions) AND an incorruptible body. Where did this assumption come from?
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TonyBS
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Science has a long way to go, we have been so backward and have yet to balance Science with religion and then great things will be found.
“The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there,” Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology, both in Egypt, told Phys.org.
Ali and coauthor Saurya Das at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, have shown in a paper published in Physics Letters B that the Big Bang singularity can be resolved by their new model in which the universe has no beginning and no end.
Read more at: phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html#jCp
Regards Tony
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