Exploring Bahaism

[worldcitizen]

worldcitizen, You’re reply to my question is asking me a question? Once again my question doesn’t get answered.
The Baha’i God turned away from himself and lost paradise by eating the forbidden fruit …that’s the moral of the story.

And Abdul-Baha said it was a figurative story and that there were many meanings and I gave one that the gist is not to disobey the Covenant of God or one dies spiritually and loses ‘paradise’.

It’s a ‘story’ meant to teach humanity that if it disobeys God it will be cast out from heaven, lose spiritual life, which, if you look around you has happened to all the people who have rejected God and so have been ‘cast down’ into materialism and consumerism because they listened to the ‘snake’ within them of the insistent self and the ego.

No Manifestation sinned. It is an analogy, a story of what will and has happened to man. It is also a prophecy of the current situation. In my understanding it’s humanity that dies spiritually and that means both the high and the low. Even a Manidestation of God is not excluded if He disobeys God that’s why the 'story’used Adam.

Abdul-Baha has said there are many meanings and we can reflect to find others so this is just my humble ‘other view’ but you can look up Abdul-Baha’s view too and choose which one you like.

Abdul-Baha says: “This is but one of the meanings of the biblical account of Adam. Reflect, that you may discover the others.”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

 

[Techno2000]

As well as in the hearts, minds and souls of their billions of collective followers on earth

So during the time that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God on Earth,were the other eight in Heaven at the same time as individual people.

 

[TonyBS]

So during the time that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God on Earth,were the other eight in Heaven at the same time as individual people.

They are all there, they are not “People”.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

They are all there, they are not “People”.

Regards Tony

What are they Tony ?

 

[TonyBS]

What are they Tony ?

From here that is your study path. I have my understanding you are free to find yours.

Regards Tony

 

[JimmyDFG]

And Abdul-Baha said it was a figurative story and that there were many meanings and I gave one that the gist is not to disobey the Covenant of God or one dies spiritually and loses ‘paradise’.

It’s a ‘story’ meant to teach humanity that if it disobeys God it will be cast out from heaven, lose spiritual life, which, if you look around you has happened to all the people who have rejected God and so have been ‘cast down’ into materialism and consumerism because they listened to the ‘snake’ within them of the insistent self and the ego.

No Manifestation sinned. It is an analogy, a story of what will and has happened to man. It is also a prophecy of the current situation. In my understanding it’s humanity that dies spiritually and that means both the high and the low. Even a Manidestation of God is not excluded if He disobeys God that’s why the 'story’used Adam.

Abdul-Baha has said there are many meanings and we can reflect to find others so this is just my humble ‘other view’ but you can look up Abdul-Baha’s view too and choose which one you like.

Abdul-Baha says: “This is but one of the meanings of the biblical account of Adam. Reflect, that you may discover the others.”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

IF its a “story” is it non-fiction or fiction? Because if its non-fiction then it didn’t happen …or maybe theres the Baha’i twist to it

“No manifestation sinned” Adam did not sin by eating the forbidden fruit ? Cathechism of the Catholic Church 416 “By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings”

Muhammad stealing and raiding caravans is not a sin to the Baha’i? and muahammed being a sinful man as stated in the …
quran 40:55 “So be patient, [O Muhammad]. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth. And ask forgiveness for your sin and exalt Allah ] with praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.”
quran 47:19
“So know, [O Muhammad], that there is no deity except Allah and ask forgiveness for your sin and for the believing men and believing women. And Allah knows of your movement and your resting place.”

 

[worldcitizen]

This is what Abdul-Baha says about Adam. You don’t have to accept it of course as you’ll have your own understanding as we as we all do. It all comes down on Who’s authority Baha’u’llah speaks. If Baha’u’llah IS the return of Christ thrn no matter whether you agree or not He and Abdul-Baha are right.

“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.”

The things about Muhammad see next post…

 

[worldcitizen]

Ok this is why we see things like you refer to in the Quran…(below)

"How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him “Good Master.” Christ answered, “Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God.” This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.

To conclude, the addresses in the form of reproach which are in the Holy Books, though apparently directed to the Prophets—that is to say, to the Manifestations of God—in reality are intended for the people. This will become evident and clear to you when you have diligently examined the Holy Books.

 

[Techno2000]

This is what Abdul-Baha says about Adam. You don’t have to accept it of course as you’ll have your own understanding as we as we all do. It all comes down on Who’s authority Baha’u’llah speaks. If Baha’u’llah IS the return of Christ thrn no matter whether you agree or not He and Abdul-Baha are right.

“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.”

The things about Muhammad see next post…

Since God is “Unknowable” how does he know what God would allow and not allow ?

 

[Techno2000]

This is what Abdul-Baha says about Adam. You don’t have to accept it of course as you’ll have your own understanding as we as we all do. It all comes down on Who’s authority Baha’u’llah speaks. If Baha’u’llah IS the return of Christ thrn no matter whether you agree or not He and Abdul-Baha are right.

“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.”

The things about Muhammad see next post…

The Bible doesn’t say that , the Just went to upper part of Abraham’s bosom… (Hell-sheol)… and wicked went to the lower part.

 

[worldcitizen]

Since God is “Unknowable” how does he know what God would allow and not allow ?

This explains it all. And Baha’u’llah gave much of this knowledge to Abdul-Baha so that’s how He knew.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, **when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. **This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.” Baha’u’llah

 

[worldcitizen]

The Bible doesn’t say that , the Just went to upper part of Abraham’s bosom… (Hell-sheol)… and wicked went to the lower part.

Abdul-Baha knew things that none of us knew about the Prophets and even Christ. He told at least one story about Jesus and th disciples that you won’t find in the gospels but I don’t know if it’s a common story or not.

I don’t remember reading this in the Bible. Tell me if it is…

"It happened one day in the time of Christ—may the life of the world be a sacrifice unto Him—that He passed by the dead body of a dog, a carcass reeking, hideous, the limbs rotting away. One of those present said: ‘How foul its stench!’ And another said: ‘How sickening! How loathsome!’ To be brief, each one of them had something to add to the list.
But then Christ Himself spoke, and He told them: ‘Look at that dog’s teeth! How gleaming white!’

The Messiah’s sin-covering gaze did not for a moment dwell upon the repulsiveness of that carrion. The one element of that dead dog’s carcass which was not abomination was the teeth: and Jesus looked upon their brightness.
Thus is it incumbent upon us, when we direct our gaze toward other people, to see where they excel, not where they fail."

 

[Techno2000]

Abdul-Baha knew things that none of us knew about the Prophets and even Christ. He told at least one story about Jesus and th disciples that you won’t find in the gospels but I don’t know if it’s a common story or not.

I don’t remember reading this in the Bible. Tell me if it is…

"It happened one day in the time of Christ—may the life of the world be a sacrifice unto Him—that He passed by the dead body of a dog, a carcass reeking, hideous, the limbs rotting away. One of those present said: ‘How foul its stench!’ And another said: ‘How sickening! How loathsome!’ To be brief, each one of them had something to add to the list.
But then Christ Himself spoke, and He told them: ‘Look at that dog’s teeth! How gleaming white!’

The Messiah’s sin-covering gaze did not for a moment dwell upon the repulsiveness of that carrion. The one element of that dead dog’s carcass which was not abomination was the teeth: and Jesus looked upon their brightness.
Thus is it incumbent upon us, when we direct our gaze toward other people, to see where they excel, not where they fail."

Yes, the glass is half full we get it.Let’s get back to Abdul-Baha and his wrong understanding of the Bible, so please show me where it says the Just will suffer…excruciating tortures in Hell ?

 

[TonyBS]

Yes, the glass is half full we get it.Let’s get back to Abdul-Baha and his wrong understanding of the Bible, so please show me where it says the Just will suffer…excruciating tortures in Hell ?

Who said such a thing in such a way?

This is what Baha’u’llah has said about Justice - It is the 2nd Hidden Word. The Hidden Words is the Essence of all the Holy Words of the past condensed into small Meditations, a mighty work - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/index.html

“O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes”.

About the Hidden Words - “This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue”.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

This explains it all. And Baha’u’llah gave much of this knowledge to Abdul-Baha so that’s how He knew.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, **when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. **This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.” Baha’u’llah

So how do we know that the knowledge that was taught to him didn’t come from a Demon ?
**

But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from
the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the
one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but,
according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: **

 

[JimmyDFG]

This is what Abdul-Baha says about Adam. You don’t have to accept it of course as you’ll have your own understanding as we as we all do. It all comes down on Who’s authority Baha’u’llah speaks. If Baha’u’llah IS the return of Christ thrn no matter whether you agree or not He and Abdul-Baha are right.

“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.”

The things about Muhammad see next post…

Don’t you see how misleading the words of Abdul-Baha when he says " If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree". It was not going near the tree that was sinful…eating the forbidden FRUIT. Misleading and deceitful

Judging by your comment worldcitizen I’d say your Abdul-Baha couldn’t understand what was meant by “The Bosom of Abraham”. Why would he not have known this? Could be because he and Baha’u’llah didn’t understand Christianity?

 

[Techno2000]

Who said such a thing in such a way?

This is what Baha’u’llah has said about Justice - It is the 2nd Hidden Word. The Hidden Words is the Essence of all the Holy Words of the past condensed into small Meditations, a mighty work - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/index.html

“O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes”.

About the Hidden Words - “This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue”.

Regards Tony

Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures?

He’s saying that the Old Testament Hell, can only mean excruciating tortures.So he has no understand of Sheol.

 

[TonyBS]

So how do we know that the knowledge that was taught to him didn’t come from a Demon ?

By His Fruits you will Know Him, that easy. 172 years on, it is as plain as the noon day sun, unless of course one is inside and has closed the door.

Materialism has put us all in the dark, thinking we are in the manifest light, it is but artificial light we have put ourselves in.

Regards Tony.

 

[TonyBS]

Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures?

He’s saying that the Old Testament Hell, can only mean excruciating tortures.So he has no understand of Sheol.

Go back through the thread, you will find the answer to your misunderstanding. It has been posted a couple of times.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

Go back through the thread, you will find the answer to your misunderstanding. It has been posted a couple of times.

Regards Tony

** Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person."**

They don’t find torment and excruciating tortures in Hell to begin with, so the whole premise is wrong right from the start.