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JHow
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For example…
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Miss_Felicity
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Women were historically undervalued in Iran and Saudi Arabia (honor killing, female infantcide etc) some of these practices unfortunately persisted post Islam but the Prophet Mohammad spoke out about this and it is NOT permitted in the laws of Islam. The religion advocates rights for women. The Prophet Mohammed’s wife Khadijah was one his greatest confidant; she was a widow and a wealthy business owner. In Islam the woman is not required to (and usually doesn’t) take her husbands last name, she is able to inherit and own her own property. Just a small example of problematic cultural issues that persists in the Arab world that are NOT condoned in the Qu’ran.
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dronald
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Qur’an 4:34 Men are in charge of women by right of what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend for maintenance from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in the husbands absence what Allah would have them guard. But those wives from whom you fear arrogance - first advise them; then if they persist, forsake them in bed; and finally, strike them. But if they obey you once more, seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever exalted and grand.
Sahih bukhari, book 6: menstrual periods, volume 1 book 6 number 301: "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of dwellers in hell fire were you women. They asked, “why is it so allah’s apostle” He replied, “you curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O allah’s apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” (They replied in the affirmative)
Sahih Al-Bukhari 4879 - Allah’s apostle said: “in paradise there is a pavillion made of a single hollow pearl sixty miles wide, in each corner of which there are wives who will not see those in the other corners; and believers will visit and enjoy them.”
Sunan ibn majah 4337 - it was narrated from abu umamah that the messenger of Allah said, “there is no one whom Allah will admit to paradise but Allah will marry him to seventy two wives, two from houris and seventy from his inheritance from the people of hell, all of whom will have desirable front passages and he will have a male member that never becomes limp.” Hisham bin khalid said, “from his inheritance from the people of Hell” means "men who enter hell, and the people of paradise will inherit their wives.
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Contarini
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But the Qur’an, and even more so Islamic law as a whole (much of the most troubling material is in the hadith), preserves what was no doubt a relatively humane set of standards for the seventh century, but is oppressive when literally applied today. That’s the basic problem.
The literal application of OT law would have the same or worse effects. Orthodox Judaism isn’t exactly nice to women either, in many respects, and some fundamentalist forms of Christianity are nearly as bad (however, neither Orthodox Judaism nor any form of Christianity rest simply on a literal reading of the OT–the NT and the Talmud enter the picture, respectively). But given Islamic belief about the Qur’an, given the importance of law in Islam, and given the cultural circumstances under which Muslims live, Islam is particularly damaging today in its effect on women.
Edwin
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MartinJordan
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Further to this, I found this comment by a Muslim writer (who I don’t really know whether he is an imam or not) mentions this:
"Women need to be honoured, they need to be able to afford and have the opportunity to beautify themselves so their husbands don’t have to look at the other women. "
For Heaven’s sake
At the same time insults Christians on not following the Bible. :doh2:
Source:troid.ca/index.php/women/the-muslim-woman/1521-are-muslim-women-second-class-citizens
MJ
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Contarini
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This, is, unfortunately, a very common approach among conservative/fundamentalist Protestants as well. Some even suggest that women who don’t make themselves sufficiently attractive to their husbands are guilty for their husbands’ adultery.
Edwin
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robwar
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read any or all of Robert Spencer’s books and you will be very filled in about Islam. He is fluent in arabic and in some of his books, he does go into explaining the language and the sutilities of it. He uses their sources and schools of thought. His books are sold on Catholic answers and he has been interviewed a number of times.Hi,
I was wondering if anybody knows of any good websites for learning more about the real fundamentals of Islam? Some websites don’t seem too reliable…
I’ve read some books and looked around the web, but I’m still shocked at how little I know about the basics of this religion.
Alternatively, if somebody on here could answer some questions that would be most useful.Stuff like: What is Shariah Law? The Hadiths, Sunnah, and Qur’an? Mohammad? Jesus and the Bible in the Islamic worldview? What is the afterlife? Who is Allah?
I gave all those nouns capital letters cause I’m not sure if they should or not!
I’d be so grateful if somebody can help me out here.
God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic
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robwar
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one can’t separate Islam from the cultural practices because Islam has shaped them. Islam is just a much a cultural and political movement as religious. We in the west separate out secular and religious but Islam does not. It is all emcompassing. That is why as Islamic countries become more Islamic, their religious leaders become their politcal leaders and the goal is a world wide caliphate rule for Allah.
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MartinJordan
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I don’t doubt it. However, perhaps they have forgotten to there is mutual equality here, is that a husband is to love his wife as he loves himself.
But I digress, this is a thread about Islam.
MJ
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Contarini
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A certain ideological take on Islam, indeed.
John Esposito and F. E. Peters have far more impressive formal credentials for writing about Islam. Certainly one can raise questions about Esposito’s biases as well–arguably he whitewashes Islam at times in his desire to be a voice for peace and reconciliation. Bernard Lewis and Samuel Huntington are more critical voices within mainstream scholarship.
This is not to say that Spencer is not worth reading or to deny his learning and honesty. But it isn’t wise to take so ideologically driven an author as one’s sole or primary authority.
Edwin
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robwar
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that is your opinion but his books are sold on Catholic Answers, he has done his homework, he is fluent in Arabic which is key for anyone who claims to be serious about islam and he uses their own sources from the major schools of thought. He is also Catholic. Robert spencer was recommended to me by an ex-Muslem as the most accurate portrail of Islam. There is nothing peaceful about Islam at all and its violent history shows it. If as you say Esposito’s is whitewashing to be a vioce of peace, then his work already shouldn’t be trusted. For voices like yourself that seem to downplay Mr. spencer, I haven’t seen any proof that he is inaccurate. If you want to read a rather bitter account of islam, read Ibn Warrq books. He left Islam, I think he might be atheist and his accounts are much more on edge than Robert Spencer.
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dzheremi
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These kinds of divergences regarding who has the credentials to talk about what can be avoided by going to primary sources. I feel like I’ve recommended this book a million times here, but since I really haven’t found anything better in English, anyone who is serious about digging into Islam from a historical perspective prior to modern political/ideological camps forming around the study of it would do well to track down Robert Hoyland’s Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam (The Darwin Press, Princeton 1997). As the title suggests, it is organized by confession, and within that chronologically and thematically (e.g., Apologia, histories, martyrologies, etc). Hoyland does not hesitate to present the likely motivations for some of the writings, and to cast doubt on what seems doubtful. I really cannot find fault with this collection, and would recommend it to anyone wary of reading more simplistic works, be they victor’s histories or…whatever Spencer’s work can be categorized as (disclaimer: I have never read it, but I have seen it classified as “Islamophobic”, which is not a word or concept that I care to invite into my vocabulary or arguments…actually, that’s why I haven’t read it; primary sources cannot be retroactively Islamophobic, whether anyone feels that this phobia is real or not, so I feel like it would be step down in terms of learning or serious study).
There are other sources for more specific inquiries (e.g., Brock and Griffith are both excellent for Syriac sources).
There are other sources for more specific inquiries (e.g., Brock and Griffith are both excellent for Syriac sources).
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Contarini
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Because it goes against your own bias? That’s a reason to take him seriously. The only reason I give Spencer any credence at all is that he goes against my own bias, which is likewise to seek for reconciliation and to see what is good in other traditions. If you care about truth, then you must pay special attention to authors whose bias makes you uncomfortable, especially when they clearly have strong credentials in their field and are generally spoken well of by folks across the ideological spectrum.
Edwin
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robwar
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If you care about truth… sigh, that is a made up standard. I do care about the truth and that is why I’m Catholic. There comes a point in someones life that you realize that one can be so stuck on being so open minded that the brains and common sense fall out that goes with it.
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robwar
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I am glad you had a disclaimer but going by the accusation of “Islamophobic” is done by those that never read or are threaten by what he writes. The web sites that are a watch on Jihad watch which is his web site only degenerate to calling him names, they do not refute in any mannor anything Mr. Spencer points out. He was recommened to me by an ex-Muslim as being most accurate in his research about Islam. I have found ex-Muslim Ibn Warrq to be much more angry and shrill. Robert Spencer is none of that and those on this thread that want to belittle or discount should actually point it out and not resort to name calling and platitudes about his research.
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Sam_777
Guest
I disagree with your statement, woman in pre-Islamic era and post that has the same values, it’s the culture which differentiate between them, for example in Arabian Peninsula we believe the woman must be protected from the day she born to the day she dies, whether that was someone’s mother, sister, or wife.
Family ties are well established here, we don’t have something like boys and girls have to move out of the house when they are 18 years old like the west!, and always the parents reminds their children of the severe punishment if they committed any type of sins which might affect the honor of that family.
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Sam_777
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I completely disagree with that !!!
Islam as a cultural law (Not a spiritual law) is excellent for both man and woman.
Compare the percentage of people practicing (nudity, losing virginity, adultery, drunkenness, same-sex propaganda) in all religions and you would find Muslims comes in the lowest percentage rank.
BEACUSE people needs law in their daily life to act as deterrent for them, similar to all the secular laws humans have invited throughout the generations, if there is no law then there is a chaos and a very unmoral life.
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Jaysuitical
Guest
Most Catholics responding to this question seem to me like fundamentalists recommending “Babylonian Mystery Religion” to people inquiring about the “real” beliefs of Catholics. When one looks at what feeds the members of a long-established religion, the answers can’t be those provided by such attacks. Just as the rantings of whatever protestant fundamentalist preacher in the media eye at the moment are a poor index to the teachings of historical Christianity, so are those of their counterparts who have slipped the leash of historical restraints.Hi,
I was wondering if anybody knows of any good websites for learning more about the real fundamentals of Islam? Some websites don’t seem too reliable…
I’ve read some books and looked around the web, but I’m still shocked at how little I know about the basics of this religion.
Alternatively, if somebody on here could answer some questions that would be most useful.
I gave all those nouns capital letters cause I’m not sure if they should or not!
I’d be so grateful if somebody can help me out here.
God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic
Seyyed Hossein Nasr is the best available in English at the moment. Khlad Abou El-Fadl’s “The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam From the Extremists” is the best study on the way in which the traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence have been marginalized and silenced by Saudi subsidies.
Just
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dronald
Guest
People need freedom Sam.
I can tell my wife not to cheat on me, and she can know that God will condemn her if she does, but no one can physically stop her from doing so with a physical punishment or death. A man who even looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultury in his heart, so technically I should have been killed many times as a Muslim.
Freedom is extremely important and I know this can be tough for people in the middle east to comprehend, but it’s true.
C
Contarini
Guest
Rigorous cross-checking of your sources to make sure that you aren’t simply following sources that confirm your biases (which is what I’m advocating) is hardly evidence that your brains are falling out, is it?
As for “common sense,” when invoked in controversial discussions it’s usually a euphemism for prejudice.
Edwin
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