Exploring sources on creaton

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Okay, it seems Hermogenes was a heretic denounced by Tertullian. That explains him and shows the Mormon apologist to be intellectually dishonest for including him in a list of Christian sources for creatio ex materia. Anyone have any additional thoughts?
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Wisdom 11:17 - “For your all-powerful hand, which created the world out of formless matter…”

Does the Wisdom of Solomon affirm creatio ex materia? Or is it simply skipping over the first stage of creation, when God made the formless matter? Or something else entirely?

For your information, I’m currently in discussion with Mormons, which is why I’m asking all these questions about creatio ex nihilo.
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When I see this, I think of the fact that it is relating to God already created matter, but the world was formless in the since it was barren, nothing in it and out of “this formless matter” He brought forth all life to it. Just my take.
 
I’d say that God creating the world out of formless matter doesn’t speak anything about whether He made the formless matter as well, or not.

If I make my own clay from scratch, and then make an awesome vase out of it, someone might call me “he who made an awesome vase out of a formless lump of clay” Even though I made the clay as well.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Wisdom 11:17 - “For your all-powerful hand, which created the world out of formless matter…”

Does the Wisdom of Solomon affirm creatio ex materia? Or is it simply skipping over the first stage of creation, when God made the formless matter? Or something else entirely?

For your information, I’m currently in discussion with Mormons, which is why I’m asking all these questions about creatio ex nihilo.
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Which bible are you using? It makes a difference. Nevertheless, the authoritative Church (a concept which Mormons are familiar with) has declared that all was created from nothing. That is how this verse is to be interpreted. As well, their bible does not have Wisdom in it 😃
 
I’m using the Revised Standard Version. Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Food for thought. I hope others will post their thoughts, too.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I’ve encountered a new idea about creation, namely, that God always creates (from nothing, at least initially) from love. He has been doing this without beginning or without end. Since Thomas Aquinas taught it was possible for God to create an eternal universe, is this idea compatible with Catholic teaching? Here it is in full:

thomasjayoord.com/index.php/blog/archives/an_alternative_doctrine_of_creation_god_always_creates_out_of_creation_in_l/#.UUs_P4bgV8E
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The Catholic Church teaches definitively that God created the universe in time out of nothing - period.

The author attempts to eat his cake and have it too. His theory assumes God is eternally creating and therefore created the universe out of some pre-existing something ( whatever that is). And that God creates the universe out of Love transforming this pre-existing something into our universe. That is definitely against Catholic Teaching. Neither in Catholic teaching nor in the teaching of St. Thomas was there a pre-existing something.

I’m afraid that the author will be firmly and soundly put down but that isn’t my job.

As Catholics we cannot reinterpret Catholic teaching just because the secular world won’t accept it. If we do that we are no longer Catholics.

As far as the reasoning behind it goes, it is that of St. Thomas. Stick to that. Whenever Catholic philosophers have strayed from St. Thomas because of the difficulties explaining his thought and because people found it hard to understand, they have always wound up in some kind of Idealism. Linus2nd
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I’m using the Revised Standard Version. Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Food for thought. I hope others will post their thoughts, too.
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St. Bonaventure says this:
“Which created, that is, formed the world; for to create is to make something from nothing, but to form is to use pre-existing matter. The world came from pre-existing material but it was first created without form; so he adds: of matter without form, that is, from prime matter which is unseen, invisible. From the point of view of the world, it was then without a distinct form, and from the view of the one acting, it lacked light which is necessary for bringing the sense of sight from potency to act; so Genesis 1:2: ‘The earth was void and empty’, as regards the first defect, ‘and darkness was upon the face of the deep’, as regards the second defect. To send upon them, namely, for punishment, a multitude of bears, or fierce lions, strong and rapacious animals; for this reason, in 1 Samuel 17:36, David gloried in having overpowered them: ‘For I your servant have killed both a lion and a bear’. I say, to send upon them a multitude of bears, or fierce lions, as was done when the Lord sent lions into the land of Samaria and they devoured the people dispersed there because they did not worship God.”

My St. Jerome Commentary makes the same allusions.

Hope this helps. Good luck
 
sousley said:
St. Bonaventure says this:
“Which created, that is, formed the world; for to create is to make something from nothing, but to form is to use pre-existing matter. The world came from pre-existing material but it was first created without form; so he adds: of matter without form, that is, from prime matter which is unseen, invisible. From the point of view of the world, it was then without a distinct form, and from the view of the one acting, it lacked light which is necessary for bringing the sense of sight from potency to act; so Genesis 1:2: ‘The earth was void and empty’, as regards the first defect, ‘and darkness was upon the face of the deep’, as regards the second defect. To send upon them, namely, for punishment, a multitude of bears, or fierce lions, strong and rapacious animals; for this reason, in 1 Samuel 17:36, David gloried in having overpowered them: ‘For I your servant have killed both a lion and a bear’. I say, to send upon them a multitude of bears, or fierce lions, as was done when the Lord sent lions into the land of Samaria and they devoured the people dispersed there because they did not worship God.”

My St. Jerome Commentary makes the same allusions.

Hope this helps. Good luck
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Very good! Thank you. 👍
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The Catholic Church teaches definitively that God created the universe in time out of nothing - period.
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Which means the death of this particular theory of creation. Too bad, it sounded promising. Oh well. :cool:
 
Anyone else have anything to add? I know there is a lot in this thread but feel free to comment on what interests you. Thanks.
 
as i understand the process of creation
God proceeded in a step-wise fashion,
creating and then moulding it into the form of the universe that we observe
informed by science, I understand that God created:
  • heaven and earth (the physical universe) - actually Christ begotten of the Father is both flesh and spirit
  • light which was separated from dark (good and evil)
  • the earth as water and dry land
  • the plants
  • birds, fish and animals
  • man
    there was a new order created in each step
    It wasn’t a shaping of the original heaven and earth; something new was added sequentially
 
i was just thinking that it did not happen all at once and then shaped. Following the template of the Genesis story of creation:

From nothing He created heaven and the physical universe

The next day, “Light” was something new, not simply a transformation of what was there from the “day” before; He then separated the light from dark (the good that He created was separated from the evil that developed)

The next thing that came into existence was this earth which He moulded into water and dry land, ready to accept the next act of creation.

Plants: as much as science speculates that plants appeared as a random collection of atoms/ molecules; it is clear that God’s hand is behind their creation. Plants flourished in all their diversity.

Birds, fish and animals, I also do not understand as appearing as random events, emerging from the rearrangement of molecules; they have their specific animal characteristics and souls.

And man, that again is a completely different being: of the earth and of spirit (heaven and earth - the cycle is complete)

Each “day”, new creation added to that of of the “day” before. Just some thoughts.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I’ve encountered a new idea about creation, namely, that God always creates (from nothing, at least initially) from love. He has been doing this without beginning or without end. Since Thomas Aquinas taught it was possible for God to create an eternal universe, is this idea compatible with Catholic teaching? Here it is in full:

thomasjayoord.com/index.php/blog/archives/an_alternative_doctrine_of_creation_god_always_creates_out_of_creation_in_l/#.UUs_P4bgV8E
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The one thing St. Thomas would agree with here is that , had God chosen to do so, he could have created a universe having no beginning, an eternal universe. But in fact he did not do so. Even so, Thomas thinks that since God did create a universe which had a beginning in time, it is bound to exist eternally hereagter as far as its matter is concerned. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The one thing St. Thomas would agree with here is that , had God chosen to do so, he could have created a universe having no beginning, an eternal universe. But in fact he did not do so. Even so, Thomas thinks that since God did create a universe which had a beginning in time, it is bound to exist eternally hereagter as far as its matter is concerned. Linus2nd
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I’m not so sure, but then scripture is concerned about what matters

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Isa 24: 17 (NJB) Fear, the pit and the snare for you, inhabitants of the city!
18 And whoever flees from the cry of fear will fall into the pit, and whoever climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare. Yes, the sluice-gates above are open, the foundations of the earth are quaking.
19 A cracking, the earth cracks open, a jolting, the earth gives a jolt, a lurching, the earth lurches backwards and forwards.
20 The earth will reel to and fro like a drunkard, it will be shaken like a shanty; so heavy will be its sin on it, it will fall, never to rise again.
21 When that day comes, Yahweh will punish the armies of the sky above and on earth the kings of the earth;
22 they will be herded together, herded together like prisoners in a dungeon and shut up in gaol, and, after long years, punished.
23 The moon will be confused and the sun ashamed, for Yahweh Sabaoth is king on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and the Glory will radiate on their elders.
 
forgot:

Isa 34:4 the entire array of heaven will fall apart. The heavens will be rolled up like a scroll and all their array will fade away, as fade the leaves falling from the vine, as fade those falling from the fig tree.
 
Aloysium said:
forgot:

Isa 34:4 the entire array of heaven will fall apart. The heavens will be rolled up like a scroll and all their array will fade away, as fade the leaves falling from the vine, as fade those falling from the fig tree.
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I agree with all you said. Still, that does not mean the annihilation of the matter and forms that exist but the destruction of their accidential properties, so to speak. Even so this is only philosophical speculation. See S.T. Part 1, Ques 46. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I agree with all you said. Still, that does not mean the annihilation of the matter and forms that exist but the destruction of their accidential properties, so to speak. Even so this is only philosophical speculation. See S.T. Part 1, Ques 46. Linus2nd
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You seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable person. Perhaps you could comment on posts 14-18? I’d really appreciate some help in responding to the Mormons I’m in contact with and this is one really tough issue for me. Thanks.
 
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