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michaelp
Guest
You bet I will.
- Status
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Juxtaposer
Guest
John Higgins:
Doesn’t that passage assume that the Protestant or Orthodox is blinded by invincible ignorance? Let’s say you’ve got a Protestant who believes that the Catholic Church is in fact the original Church founded by Christ, yet he chooses to remain outside of it? According to Catholic teaching this Protestant would go to hell. I suppose that’s logical, since the Protestant would be rebelling against what they to be the truth. At that point the only thing that would be keeping the Protestant out of the Catholic Church would be his won hate for her, and “anyone who says they are in the light but hates is still in the dark”.
DaveBj:
Doesn’t that passage assume that the Protestant or Orthodox is blinded by invincible ignorance? Let’s say you’ve got a Protestant who believes that the Catholic Church is in fact the original Church founded by Christ, yet he chooses to remain outside of it? According to Catholic teaching this Protestant would go to hell. I suppose that’s logical, since the Protestant would be rebelling against what they to be the truth. At that point the only thing that would be keeping the Protestant out of the Catholic Church would be his won hate for her, and “anyone who says they are in the light but hates is still in the dark”.
Again, why did Pope Boniface VIII have to say that in the first place? For all he knew Philip IV was in the Church.
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James224
Guest
Hi TWF,
I will answer your question with a simple answer:
" A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Session VI, chapter IV)
May God bless,
James224
I will answer your question with a simple answer:
" A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Session VI, chapter IV)
May God bless,
James224
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I don’t know the history of the conflict, but it was a political conflict (as happened occasionally between the Popes and Kings!). This was when the Papacy was a political power of reality rather than an exclucively political power of morality (persuasion, cesure, interdict, excommunication, etc.). The teaching was probably used to bring the King to heel. The teaching hasn’t changed, but it has been explained, expanded upon, enlarged upon, etc., to the understanding currently taught in the Catechism. Protestants are united to us in a way that is “certain, though imperfect.” Unless one is a Feeneyite (died excommunicate), in which case, I’d be tempted to say,“Talk to the hand!” I guess “talk to the Pope!” would be better.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Your statement would apply to any act of papal excommunication, since excommunications are not infallible, and it’s always a possibiloty that one is issued wrongly. Like anyone else, pastors have to act as their consciences dictate.
This is not a new teaching, BTW. Catholics throughout the Middle Ages taught that one could be saved by a baptism of desire (implicit or explicit), and Papal decrees on this subject have to be read within the entire theological context of Medieval Catholicism, not in isolation.
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pnewton
Guest
This issue has been addressed often, as in Michelle Arnold’s answer at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143
This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143
This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
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Dan-Man916
Guest
michaelp,
i think what is important is why the Church teaches that Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Mystici Corporis Christi, from Pope Pius XII promulgated on 29 June 1943 talks about this:
103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ,”[195]
and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.
Those heavenly helps thet “they” are deprived of are the Sacraments. It is the Sacraments that impart the grace unto our salvation. For the Catholic, the free gift of salvation is offered through the Sacraments, not through “accpeting CHrist”.
In essence, we would say that accepting CHrist means accepting the grace of the Sacraments.
So that is why the Church teaches E.E.N.S. It is because those outside the Catholic Church are deprived of many of those helps.
While we share a common Baptism, which gives us our initial Justification, those ecclesial communities outside of the visible Church are deprived of the grace of the Eucharist, Sacrament of Reconciliation, Confirmation, and Anointing.
i think what is important is why the Church teaches that Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Mystici Corporis Christi, from Pope Pius XII promulgated on 29 June 1943 talks about this:
103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ,”[195]
and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.
Those heavenly helps thet “they” are deprived of are the Sacraments. It is the Sacraments that impart the grace unto our salvation. For the Catholic, the free gift of salvation is offered through the Sacraments, not through “accpeting CHrist”.
In essence, we would say that accepting CHrist means accepting the grace of the Sacraments.
So that is why the Church teaches E.E.N.S. It is because those outside the Catholic Church are deprived of many of those helps.
While we share a common Baptism, which gives us our initial Justification, those ecclesial communities outside of the visible Church are deprived of the grace of the Eucharist, Sacrament of Reconciliation, Confirmation, and Anointing.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
Your salvation is dependant upon your response to the graces God has given you. If you suspect that the Catholic Church is true but are unwilling to join it, then your salvation is indeed in jeopardy. If, however, you do not suspect that the Catholic Church is true, then your not joining it will not be held against you.
The following Scripture passages seem to apply:
Jesus said, “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.” (Luke 12:47)
“Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.” (James 4:17)
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Todd,
Good answer!
Good answer!
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Who cares?
I finally decided that the way to get on with life is to quit worrying about whether I am going to heaven or hell and just live the best I can according to my own knowledge and conscience, and to the best of my ability listen to the Spirit.
If that isn’t good enough to get to heaven, then how is any particular formula going to help?
It sounds to me that the teachings on this matter have changed, and I think for the better. There are some words that make it sound like the teaching has only “grown” but not changed, but those would not be necessary if we didn’t hold that the church could not change. I think refusing to change is not a good strategy for any human-run organization, but I guess as long as she can “grow” in such a way that she bears no functional resemblance to her past, then she can effectively correct her faults as she recognizes them.
We win the race by focusing on the track, the hurdles, and the finish line, not on the prize. Perhaps the prize gives us motivation, but it doesn’t give the way. Christ is the way, and His way is one of love. Christ said “those who are not against us are for us.” If Jesus thinks I am “for” Him and then does not testify in my behalf before the Father, than that wouldn’t Jesus much of a friend, would it? (I’d hope He would warn me about going to hell rather than tell me I’m doing fine and then tell me “I don’t know you” in front of His Father.) Since the current teaching in the Church is that salvation is through Christ, I think Christ is the one whose side I want to be on.
Alan
I finally decided that the way to get on with life is to quit worrying about whether I am going to heaven or hell and just live the best I can according to my own knowledge and conscience, and to the best of my ability listen to the Spirit.
If that isn’t good enough to get to heaven, then how is any particular formula going to help?
It sounds to me that the teachings on this matter have changed, and I think for the better. There are some words that make it sound like the teaching has only “grown” but not changed, but those would not be necessary if we didn’t hold that the church could not change. I think refusing to change is not a good strategy for any human-run organization, but I guess as long as she can “grow” in such a way that she bears no functional resemblance to her past, then she can effectively correct her faults as she recognizes them.
We win the race by focusing on the track, the hurdles, and the finish line, not on the prize. Perhaps the prize gives us motivation, but it doesn’t give the way. Christ is the way, and His way is one of love. Christ said “those who are not against us are for us.” If Jesus thinks I am “for” Him and then does not testify in my behalf before the Father, than that wouldn’t Jesus much of a friend, would it? (I’d hope He would warn me about going to hell rather than tell me I’m doing fine and then tell me “I don’t know you” in front of His Father.) Since the current teaching in the Church is that salvation is through Christ, I think Christ is the one whose side I want to be on.
Alan
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twf
Guest
web.archive.org/web/20040218182856/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ232.HTM
Here’s an excellent indepth article on the matter, from Dave’s Armstrong’s site.
Alan: I particularly recommend that you read it, as Dave seeks to demonstrate that there has been no change, that there is no contradiction. He points out that our modern concept of salvation outside the visible confines of the Church already existed in in a less developed manner in the Church of past centuries, with such concepts of ‘baptism of desire’ and ‘justification’ of those who have never heard the Gospel. (Augustine, he says, even allowed for the possible salvation of certain material heretics, that is, those who were born into heresy through no fault of their own, as long as they seeked the Truth of God).
In Christ,
Tyler
Here’s an excellent indepth article on the matter, from Dave’s Armstrong’s site.
Alan: I particularly recommend that you read it, as Dave seeks to demonstrate that there has been no change, that there is no contradiction. He points out that our modern concept of salvation outside the visible confines of the Church already existed in in a less developed manner in the Church of past centuries, with such concepts of ‘baptism of desire’ and ‘justification’ of those who have never heard the Gospel. (Augustine, he says, even allowed for the possible salvation of certain material heretics, that is, those who were born into heresy through no fault of their own, as long as they seeked the Truth of God).
In Christ,
Tyler
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Asking
Guest
What do you all think of Cyrus the Great?
Although I am not a history major, I like history, and as far as I know he was either a zoroastrian or pagan, bu the bible mentions him many times and only has good things to say about him, In Isaías God even calls him, my chosen one.
Do you think Cyrus could be in heaven? saved?
Although I am not a history major, I like history, and as far as I know he was either a zoroastrian or pagan, bu the bible mentions him many times and only has good things to say about him, In Isaías God even calls him, my chosen one.
Do you think Cyrus could be in heaven? saved?
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JGC
Guest
CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)
To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear
CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]
Both of these reference Lumen Gentium. Robert Burns OP pointed out that
“no responsible Catholic theologian would publicly deny them (Vat II documents) as teachings of the Church”
So really the so called EENS ‘traditionalists’ who try to damn everyone outside the visible Catholic Church (in communion with Rome) really don’t have a leg to stand on. They can try to use their own interpretations of isolated Florence and Unam Sanctam quotes until they are blue in the face. They are on their own. The Pope, Bishops, and clergy do not endorse these ‘traditionalists’ point of view. Which these ‘traditionalists’ are entitled to of course.
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)
To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear
CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]
Both of these reference Lumen Gentium. Robert Burns OP pointed out that
“no responsible Catholic theologian would publicly deny them (Vat II documents) as teachings of the Church”
So really the so called EENS ‘traditionalists’ who try to damn everyone outside the visible Catholic Church (in communion with Rome) really don’t have a leg to stand on. They can try to use their own interpretations of isolated Florence and Unam Sanctam quotes until they are blue in the face. They are on their own. The Pope, Bishops, and clergy do not endorse these ‘traditionalists’ point of view. Which these ‘traditionalists’ are entitled to of course.
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aridite
Guest
I didn’t see that this thread was on-going when I raised this question in a separate thread, but I think it is a relevant tough question – and a real one I face with Catholics and non-Catholics: given that salvation is possible outside of the visible Church, why should a Catholic stay in, or a non-Catholic come into, the visible (i.e., Roman Catholic) Church?
J
JGC
Guest
Why stay a Catholic?
Many people complain about the Church for whatever reason but when asked why they stay the usual answer is - The Sacraments.
Why become a Catholic?
Well different people who have been recieved into the Church will give you different answers. e.g Again, the sacraments, or realisation that the Catholic Church recieved and has maintained the faith recieved from Christ and the apostles. Or some see the truth in Church teachings and approach that way rather than theologically.
To become Catholic is to have the fullness of truth rather than partially as in other Christian communities or other religions.
Many people complain about the Church for whatever reason but when asked why they stay the usual answer is - The Sacraments.
Why become a Catholic?
Well different people who have been recieved into the Church will give you different answers. e.g Again, the sacraments, or realisation that the Catholic Church recieved and has maintained the faith recieved from Christ and the apostles. Or some see the truth in Church teachings and approach that way rather than theologically.
To become Catholic is to have the fullness of truth rather than partially as in other Christian communities or other religions.
T
twf
Guest
When those two quotes, the ones I provided at the beginning of the thread, were constructed, however, doesn’t it seem likely that both popes were under the impression that no one, or almost no one, outside the visible Church could be saved? Is not the intention of the pope, when speaking infallibly, also covered by infallibility? Can the Pope not understand what he is writing?
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John_Higgins
Guest
The answer’s simple–those weren’t infallible.
John
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aridite
Guest
Here’s my problem. I work in Catholic campus ministry. The young adults I talk to will tell me they went to so and so protestant church service, and either they liked it and go there some (most) Sundays or didn’t, so they go to Mass (Mass suits their taste). Or their boy/girlfriend is protestant, and a good devout Christian, and they have a conflict over which church to attend. Sometimes, they tell me, their boy/girlfriend feels God calling them to follow him as a Baptist or whatever. Students often ask me whether protestants/non-Christians will go to heaven (it would be nice if it were more nuanced, but it seldom is.)
So, with all of these cases, I tell them what I understand the Church’s teaching to be – when in invincible ignorance, non-Catholics can be saved through Christ (or his Body, the Church, if you like) even though thay may not know Him (or her [the Church]) as such. Baptists or whatever can follow/worship Christ (though it is not as objectively good as going to Mass). This is all well and good, but it seems to have the practical effect that being Catholic really isn’t necessary (if you can claim invincible ignorance).
Now I do tell the students that it is great to be Catholic, the Church does have the fullness of truth, she has the Sacraments as the means of grace for growing to be more Christ-like, she is historically the one Church Christ founded on the Apostles. I tell them that they do have an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday, that they are not invincibly ignorant. But, judging by the practical effect, such admonitions, etc. are not all that effective. It is seldom put so precisely by students, but I think it is a fair question is: if the Church has so much going for it and protestants lack so much (and I really do believe they do), why are so many protestants they know such strong Christians?
I know at least part of the reason for this is owing to the impressionablity of youth – and the fact that the test of real strength in faith can only be seen after a lifetime of struggle, and some college students have not really seen that much of the world. While that might be true, I think it would be pretty hard to communicate that truth in an acceptable way. But I think there is more to this practical indifferentism than youthful superficiality. (And some college students are not superficial at all – some of the more thoughtful ones see more clearly the wisdom of the exceptional nature of invincible ignorance.)
I’m beginning to see that part of the problem is the students have been overly influenced by the protestant obsession with “salvation” as a one time (or bottom line) event/state. Instead there should be more emphasis on sanctification – becoming holy, and clearly the Sacraments are important for that. (But this opens up the issue of the sanctity-level of Catholics (which is certainly lower than it should be).)
I was wondering if anyone else has encountered similar issues in their evangelization efforts (even to Catholics).
T
trogiah
Guest
I would like to add this thought to the ongoing discussion and to address the question raised by aridite. The following is often quoted as something of a “loophole” through which non-Catholics can achieve salvation.
- This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
I think the institution of the church and the sacraments can help a person stay on track and help give unity to all who believe in Christ but even if a person receives the sacraments and attends church regularly, if they don’t live lives that reflect Christs teaching then they are the ones who will be locked out of God’s kingdom.
I think in your work with young people, focusing on the salvation and sanctification that both come from living Christ-like lives would, in time, be the most effective. The is nothing wrong with admitting that living such lives is possible without regularly receiving the sacraments, it just may not always be as easy that way. (Not that it is always easy even with the sacraments)
Peace,
-Jim
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Deacon2006
Guest
Four points
- God saves us through His Sanctfying Grace which he dispenses in His Church and through His Church. The Body of Christ is not limited to those who happen to be born catholic but is intended to save us all.
- God constantly is calling us to become fullest members of His Church, to refuse this calling is a sin that merits the fires of hell.
- Confusion and misunderstanding about the call of God to His Church must not be discounted when tallying the number saved. However it is meaningless speculation to guess what minimum benchmark of belief is required for salavation. It may imperil your soul to give false impressions to members of protestant churches etc. of denominational or religious indifference .
- The Body of Christ is visible on the earth today as the Catholic Church and Christ demands that each of its members proclaim His truths throughout the world including the demand that all men must constantly seek the truth in the Catholic Church. The complete conversion of oneself to the The Body of Christ is what is required to enter heaven for only those who belong to the Body of Christ are in heaven. We can never discount the infinite mercy of Christ as to when this conversion takes place but we must never presume on Christ’s mercy and reject our responsibilities.
- Status