Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[Tim_Hayes]

AQs far as I can tell the teaching of the Church has changed and if anyone can enlighten me please do so that I may not labour under falsehood.

God, according to the Catholic Church wants everyone to not only follow Christ but also become part of the true Church, the Catholic Church.

Now we are told that God grants various graces to all people including non catholics and non Christians.

Now in the western world where we are free to worship where we please. If God grants graces/help to non catholics then he must do so in order to bring them to the true church, the catholic Church. If those graces imparted are not also with the intent of bringing them to the Catholic Church then the Catholic Church is not necessary for anyone to be in, anymore than any other faith.

Now if God speaks to someone by providing graces/help to them he must be trying to help them into the Church, if they do not come to the catholic Church then ultimatley the only thing possible is that they have turned their back on Gods grace. Now what is the result of us turning our back on God.

I cannot, generally speaking, see it any other way and I do not see how theologically it can be any other way, but I am willing to listen.

In Christ

Tim

 

[RSiscoe]

Regarding no salvation outside the Church: The Church has not changed its teaching regarding the matter. It has defined infallibly that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. And if one asks who is a member of the Church, it has further defined, infallibly, that to be a member of the Church, one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Therefore, if someone does not recognize the position of the Pope, or if they reject any dogma of the Church, they are not a member of the Church. It is that simple. Since an infallible statement is one that is protected by the Holy Ghost from error, it cannot be changed, since the truth does not, and cannot, change.

That being said, the Church does allow for the possibility that a person, who does not appear to be a member of the Church, can attain salvation. I believe that this subject should not be discussed by the average lay person, since it deals with very subtle subjective details, and could easily lead to confusion. In fact, in one of his encyclicals, Pope Pius XI forbade anyone, even theologians, from discussing this possibility. Today, not only is the “exception to the rule” discussed openly, but many no longer even mention the rule. However, since the subject is now openly discussed, let us try to clear up the confusion.

Just as there is an objective and subjective level, so likewise there is a “general order” and a “particular order”. In “The Diologue of St. Catherine of Siena”, God discusses these two “orders”. When one understands the distinction between the general order and the particular order, much theological confusion is cleared up, just as the understanding between the objective level and the subjective level bring much clarity to apparent contradictions.

For example: It is objectively a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, yet if a person forgets what day it is, and eats meat on Friday, they are not guilty of a mortal sin, since they did not knowingly do anything wrong. An objective mortal sin was committed (eating meat of Friday), but, since they committed it through ignorance, they are not subjectively guilty. So it is possible for a person to commit a mortal sin, yet not be guilty of one. The distiction between the objective level and the subjective level, explains how this is possible.

Just as there is an objective level and a subjective level, so there is a “general order” and a “particular order”. When the Church defines such things as the necessity of water baptism, or the necessity for a person to be subject to the Roman pontiff to be saved, these are spoken in the general order, yet there can be exceptions to this general order, based on the subjective (particular) state of the individual. I think the distinction between the general order and particular order could clear up a lot of doctrinal confusion today.

One thing that has changed in the Church since Vatican II, is that the Church has changed the way it speaks. In the past, the Church spoke on the objective level (general order). Today, however, is often speaks subjectively, which leads to confusion. Instead of stating the truth and allowing for a possible exception, it focuses on the exception, which takes the force away from the truth. In my opinion, the manner of communicating has led to much confusion within the Church.

The following article deals somewhat with this subject.

seattlecatholic.com/article_20030523.html