Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

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codefro

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Forgive me if this has been discussed many times before, I am a recent convert. Is this still the official stance of salvation by the Roman Catholic Church, or is the waters slightly muddy nowadays? Thanks. 🙂
 
Yup, the Church still teaches this. Doctrine doesn’t change, but our understanding and explanations deepen 🙂
 
The concept of protestantism is what has muddied the waters - but only if one looks no further. All who are validly baptized in the Trinitarian formula, using water and with the proper intent, are members of the universal (Catholic) Church, Christ’s visible Body on earth - albeit they remain in an imperfect communion with her.

What the Church teaches is that Christ founded only one universal Church. Outside of that universal Church (body of believers who are validly baptized), there is no salvation. At the same time, this does not limit God, Who cannot be limited as to whom He chooses to save.

Is this what you were asking?
 
This makes sense. So where the RCC used to claim that ANY those outside communion with Rome would not recieve salvation, whereas now when the RCC speaks of salvation outside the church they are speaking of the Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ?
 
po18guy said:
The concept of protestantism is what has muddied the waters - but only if one looks no further. All who are validly baptized in the Trinitarian formula, using water and with the proper intent, are members of the universal (Catholic) Church, Christ’s visible Body on earth - albeit they remain in an imperfect communion with her.

What the Church teaches is that Christ founded only one universal Church. Outside of that universal Church (body of believers who are validly baptized), there is no salvation. At the same time, this does not limit God, Who cannot be limited as to whom He chooses to save.

Is this what you were asking?
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My response was to this-

Yes makes sense. So where the RCC used to claim that ANY those outside communion with Rome would not recieve salvation, whereas now when the RCC speaks of salvation outside the church they are speaking of the Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ?
 
codefro said:
This makes sense. So where the RCC used to claim that ANY those outside communion with Rome would not recieve salvation, whereas now when the RCC speaks of salvation outside the church they are speaking of the Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ?
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I think that you are looking at the Catholic Church from a point of view that is too legalistic and by doing that you can loose view of all the other aspects of the Church. The Church of Rome is a suis juris Chruch and it is part of the “Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ”; however, while it is quite easy to say who is a Catholic it is not easy to say who is not a Catholic. When we look at EENS only from a simple legalistic point of view we can get pretty close to an heresy similar to OSAS. Having said that I want to add that I firmly believe in EENS because rejecting it would be rejecting the whole premise of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of our Lord.
 
Cristiano said:
I think that you are looking at the Catholic Church from a point of view that is too legalistic and by doing that you can loose view of all the other aspects of the Church. The Church of Rome is a suis juris Chruch and it is part of the “Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ”; however, while it is quite easy to say who is a Catholic it is not easy to say who is not a Catholic. When we look at EENS only from a simple legalistic point of view we can get pretty close to an heresy similar to OSAS. Having said that I want to add that I firmly believe in EENS because rejecting it would be rejecting the whole premise of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of our Lord.
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I guess I am just asking if the way I explained it is generally the modern interpretation/ perspective?
 
codefro said:
I guess I am just asking if the way I explained it is generally the modern interpretation/ perspective?
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It is both the modern and old interpretation. The big difference is that there is a difference between making something happen and being part of something that happened. Look at the case of the Protestants, most of them do not make protestantism happen but they grow into it and so they are part of it. Their role is different from the people that formed “new Christian churches”. A similar view is about the Eastern Orthodox they are in schism but they are not schismatic, and intrinsic problem is being schismatic while being in schism is an extrinsic problem.

I think that we know that EENS holds true and we also know that the boundaries of the Catholic Church are not always 100% clear thus we have an God given obligation to go and to evangelize people without hesitation. If someone, that has a reasonable understanding and instruction, rejects the incarnation, death and resurrection of our Lord and their premise then he puts himself outside the Church.

Honestly I would not put to much emphasis on EENS because it is not guarantee of salvation and I would focus in truly converting everyone whether he is baptized as a Catholic or not, because the sad truth is that a lot of Catholics need to be converted.
 
codefro said:
My response was to this-

Yes makes sense. So where the RCC used to claim that ANY those outside communion with Rome would not recieve salvation, whereas now when the RCC speaks of salvation outside the church they are speaking of the Trinitarian Church of Jesus Christ?
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Full communion with the Church of Christ (Roman Catholic) is the normative means of salvation. However, as with the baptism of blood and of desire, there are other paths with which God may also save. We are called, during regular times and circumstances, to follow the normative path to salvation.

As one of its founding bases, protestantism rejects Church authority, as well as those whom (as the Church teaches) God has sent as ambassadors. This is a less-sure path to salvation.
 
po18guy said:
Full communion with the Church of Christ (Roman Catholic) is the normative means of salvation. However, as with the baptism of blood and of desire, there are other paths with which God may also save. We are called, during regular times and circumstances, to follow the normative path to salvation.

As one of its founding bases, protestantism rejects Church authority, as well as those whom (as the Church teaches) God has sent as ambassadors. This is a less-sure path to salvation.
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So what does that say about salvation for Protestants?
 
codefro said:
So what does that say about salvation for Protestants?
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In a practrical and absolute sense, it states that those who do not receive communion and the other Sacraments are in a less-sure state. The extent or seriousness of that state is up to God. All of this must be balanced against the fact tha Jesus founded only one Church, and to differ with her, or to remain outside of her, especially in a state of knowledge, places one’s salvation more at risk that joining or remaining within her.

Sounds like, as a convert, you are concerned about someone. As with babies who are aborted, or who die before baptism, we must simply commend them to God’s infinite (but not unconditional) mercy, and pray for them.
 
po18guy said:
Sounds like, as a convert, you are concerned about someone. As with babies who are aborted, or who die before baptism, we must simply commend them to God’s infinite (but not unconditional) mercy, and pray for them.
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Well in a way, I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am just really trying to make sure I understand the truth of the Church’s doctrine. I am currently in RCIA and the director was explaining this one day. The director first of all never mentioned this doctrine when she spoke of salvation (I had already known it existed), and when asked on how salvation is determined the director was just very eager to leave it at “nobody knows.” So, knowing that this existed, and the director may not be speaking the truth, I wanted to really get a grasp on what the doctrine speaks today.
 
codefro said:
Well in a way, I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am just really trying to make sure I understand the truth of the Church’s doctrine. I am currently in RCIA and the director was explaining this one day. The director first of all never mentioned this doctrine when she spoke of salvation (I had already known it existed), and when asked on how salvation is determined the director was just very eager to leave it at “nobody knows.” So, knowing that this existed, and the director may not be speaking the truth, I wanted to really get a grasp on what the doctrine speaks today.
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The director was speaking the truth when he said “nobody knows”. We know only what has been revealed to us but it will always be impossible for us to fully understand what really determines our salvation.
 
EENS is dogma, not doctrine, the two are not inter-changeable.FYI, to lessen the confusion.
 
Cristiano said:
I disagree, I would say that all dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas.
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You disagree with EENS being dogma, or that the two are inter-changeable? The latter is probably better suited for another thread, the former is undeniable.
 
Cristiano said:
The director was speaking the truth when he said “nobody knows”. We know only what has been revealed to us but it will always be impossible for us to fully understand what really determines our salvation.
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Well for the sake of evangelizing then, what is known?
 
codefro said:
Well for the sake of evangelizing then, what is known?
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I would just get started with doing a deep dive into the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and sharing the basic information. If everybody were to truly accept and follow what is described in one of the basic catechisms that are available (Compendium of the CCC, YouCat, Baltimore Catechism, etc.) I think that we all would be in quite a good shape to receive the gift of salvation.

Just read the article “I Don’t Need your Catechism!” to have an idea of the message that I am trying to convey.
 
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